Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 20th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

Would the Leader of the House be willing to discuss with his colleagues in the usual channels a debate on the ongoing review into the Code of Conduct? As noble Lords will know, the Conduct Committee is conducting a wide-ranging review of the code, and the outcome of its deliberations will affect all Members of this House. It is therefore very important that the committee can hear views from Members from across the House before it concludes its inquiries and reports.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to raise an issue about the progress, or lack of it, of Private Members’ Bills—a subject on which I have had some interest from time to time—and, in particular, the disparity between the time given to these Bills in the Commons and the time we give to Commons Bills here in the Lords. The Chief Whip has just read out seven First Readings of Private Members’ Bills. Last Friday, we had four Second Readings of Private Members’ Bills allocated time in this House. Seven Private Members’ Bills that started in the Commons have already had Second Readings this year. Of the Bills that we have sent to the Commons for their First Reading, of which there have been four, none of them has had any progress in the Commons whatsoever. If we look over a broader spread, it is almost ridiculous: I think it is almost entirely accurate that some 300 Private Members’ Bills have started in this House in the last seven years; only three of them actually reached the statute book. It becomes a pretty spectacular waste of time to try to add something to the statute book if you start it in this House.

I simply say to the Leader, while he is here: surely if a Bill gets through all its stages in this House, we should expect the Commons to give it a chance of something above zero, which is what it has at present, particularly in view of the fact that we are pretty generous in the time that we allocate. These are all desirable Bills; I am not criticising any of the Bills: the ones that got a Second Reading on Friday were excellent, as are many Private Members’ Bill, but our generosity towards Commons starters ought to be more closely matched by the time the Commons gives to Private Members’ Bills that are Lords starters.

EU Referendum: Conduct

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 22nd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, let us hear from the noble Lord, Lord Grocott.

[Lord Grocott]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. My noble friend Lord Foulkes spoke with passion and eloquence on behalf of the 700,000 people who marched. If I can say a word on behalf of the 17.4 million people who voted leave, it is this: ever since the referendum result was declared—this just another step along the way—there has been an unremitting campaign to try to discredit or, at best, reverse the result of the referendum on numerous different fronts, of which this is just the latest example. Can the Minister put this all in perspective and recognise that the 17.4 million people who voted leave were not all duped by the Russians and were not all ignorant about the issues which were before them? All they asked was this simple request, which we want the Government to get on with: to leave the European Union.

Hereditary Peers By-election

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 18th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, it would be wrong to let this occasion pass without pointing out again that we have just heard the result of a by-election that gives us a new Member of Parliament, which would not normally be referred to in just a matter of a few words. Nothing I say is, in any way, a criticism of the person who has just been elected, but he was elected, as the Clerk of the Parliaments has said, with an electorate of 47 people and 11 candidates. Simply to announce the winner is, to put it politely, a bizarre way of concluding a bizarre electoral system.

I ask again and will keep doing so: why the secrecy surrounding all this? Was this item ever on the annunciator? I looked for it but, no, it was not there. It is an important item of today’s proceedings. Was it on the Order Paper? There was not a word. The next item is the Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill, a very important Bill, but for goodness sake should it not be on the Order Paper? Was at any stage the House of Lords Commission involved in this procedure? No, it was not. Will the new Member of Parliament be introduced in the normal way? The answer is no to all these questions.

The truth is that, whenever these by-elections occur, they have all the characteristics of a private admittance to a private club. I say, to quote a former Prime Minister, “Let the sunshine in”. We should know more about these by-elections when they take place. Why cannot we have the figures for the winner and for the losers, and the majority, just as a template? I offer this to the Chief Whip, for whom I have great respect given the hugely important office that he holds. Why can it not be announced?

In the last by-election that we had, for example, the winner got 12 votes and the runner-up got five, so there was a majority of seven. I know why we do not announce these results: because they are embarrassing and ridiculous. The bad news is that yet another of these by-elections is coming up. The even worse news is that I shall repeat this statement then. I am not a proud man; I am quite happy for it to be recorded and simply played out whenever there is a by-election. We have got to deal with this issue. It is beyond ridiculous, so let us get on with it.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

We know the noble Lord’s views on hereditary by-elections. He has a Bill before the House, which the House will consider in September. Meanwhile, he really should know—having been Chief Whip himself—that the whole of the information that he requires is available in the Printed Paper Office. In the Printed Paper Office is the notice of election, which tells him on what day the ballot will take place and on what day the election will be announced. All details of every vote are recorded on the document in the Printed Paper Office. He need only to go to the Printed Paper Office to get all the information he requires. Indeed, he could pick up several copies to give to others who he thinks need to be informed.

Hereditary Peers By-election

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, the Clerk of the Parliaments has just made an important announcement of the result of a parliamentary by-election, which is always of significance in whichever House it takes place. He has acted as a returning officer, effectively. I make no criticism of him, because he is acting in accordance with precedence, but there are two by-elections pending and the returning officer’s responsibility is wider than simply announcing the result. Can I ask that, in future, when he announces the result of the next two by-elections, he also tells us the total number of votes cast, the votes cast for each candidate, the number of ballots, the number of spoiled papers, should there be any, and finally the percentage turnout? Can the usual channels ensure that that is done on all future occasions?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, my distinguished predecessor of the office I currently hold will know that there is no Question before the House. He has presented a large shopping list. He has a Bill before the House and he should know that I intend to make provision for further discussion on his Bill sometime in the autumn. I hope that satisfies noble Lords on his particular interest in this matter. I will read Hansard for the specific demands that he makes.

House of Lords: Size

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Garel-Jones (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, I think we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and then from the Conservative Benches.

[Lord Grocott]

I gently suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Young, that he would not be answering 15 questions if he could give us one answer. The answer that I would like him to give us is the one that was presented by the Burns report, which has been largely accepted by the House, and indeed implicitly by the Government; that is, the completely anomalous position of having 92 protected places while trying to reduce the size of the House, so that, following last week’s vacancy caused by the retirement of Earl Baldwin, this House will be by law obliged—against its policy—to replace that exiting Peer with a new Peer. If the Minister will simply answer yes to my question of whether the Government will put an end to that anomaly, I guarantee that he will not get any more questions from me.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

I am sorry and I stand corrected. It was the Common Market, then the European Community, then the European Union and no doubt it will be something else in due course. The people who voted yes in the 1975 referendum did not know that it would triple in size over the ensuing 41 years, that qualified majority voting on all related matters would develop and that we would get a European foreign ministry, 150-odd offices of the European Union around the country, a European foreign affairs spokesman and so on. I am not necessarily criticising that, but I would say that no one who voted yes in 1975 could conceivably have thought that that would be the way in which the European Union would develop. Correct me if I am wrong, but do I recall anyone who voted yes in 1975 saying, “No, the circumstances have changed dramatically and we need to have another referendum to check whether the people agree with what they voted for”? The answer of course is no, that did not happen, and we waited 41 years between the first referendum and the second.

If we adopt the same principle in this respect, we shall have another referendum in 2057. I am a generous man looking for compromises and I think that would be an unreasonable gap between this referendum and any subsequent one. However, it is inevitable that after any decision, whether in a referendum or at a general election, some people will be dissatisfied with the result and will want to have it checked—correction, they will want to have it reversed. That is precisely the motive behind this proposal for a second referendum— unacknowledged in the Bill and unacknowledged during the referendum debate, and now being demanded as an entirely novel proposal. I hope that the House will agree with me that that is not acceptable.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I think that it would be sensible to hear from the Front Benches now. Perhaps we may hear from the Labour Front Bench and then the Minister.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I make a short Statement about recess dates for the next year. As usual, to save Members reaching for their diaries, I should say that dates are listed at the back of this week’s edition of Forthcoming Business and a separate note is available in the Printed Paper Office. In a bid to be helpful to the House, we have gone slightly further ahead this year, in terms of the dates for next year, than we have in recent years. I should therefore particularly stress the usual caveat that the planned recesses are provisional and subject to the usual progress of business.

For Easter, we expect to adjourn at the end of business on Thursday 6 April and return on Monday 24 April. The May Day bank holiday is Monday 1 May, and we will adjourn at the end of business on the previous Thursday, 27 April. For Whitsun, we expect to adjourn at the end of business on Thursday 25 May and return on Tuesday 6 June.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the Government Chief Whip for not giving him advance notice of this question, and I do not need an immediate reply, but what consultation has there been with the Commons to marry, so far as is possible, the recesses of the two Houses? He will recall that, in the most recent recess, we had what to me, at any rate, seemed a most absurd situation where we sat on the Wednesday when the Commons did not and they came back on the following Monday when we were still in recess. A bigger brain than mine may have worked out that that is the best way of doing things, but it is not immediately apparent, and it is for the convenience of both Houses if, as far as possible, the recess dates of the two Houses marry with one another.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for mentioning that point. He will know that, in fact, the dates have not been announced in the other place up to now, but I anticipate that they will be made available to Members of the House of Commons shortly. I think he will find that they will coincide with our own, because we in this House are the trend-setters, as noble Lords know.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Elections

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot speak to those particular allegations. All I can say is that the appointment of a deputy police and crime commissioner is not obligatory, but is something that police and crime commissioners can do. Further, they are required to appoint a head of paid staff and a finance officer. The latter two posts are the only ones that the law requires.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, however the Minister might interpret the turnout at the elections, could we agree that there was no evidence of any wild enthusiasm for these new commissioners? Would he further accept that this is in keeping with a pattern? On the same day, the people of Hartlepool decided that they did not want a directly elected mayor; just as nine out of 10 cities earlier this year decided that they did not want a directly elected mayor; just as the overwhelming majority of the British people in a referendum last year decided that they did not want a new electoral system. Could the Minister advise those constitutional experts in the Government who keep wanting to fiddle about with the constitution, that before they do so they might at least think about listening to the views of the British people?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am really sorry, because I have great respect for the noble Lord, that he appears to speak against the extension of democracy to this important area of government. I am prepared to wager with him that the next police and crime commissioner elections will attract increased participation that is a great deal more than these elections.

House of Lords: Elections

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

I am glad the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has acknowledged that this secret committee, of which we know neither the agenda nor the minutes, is considering this matter. It would be nice if we could be told more about it. I would put it to him that the most crucial recommendation in the report of the Cunningham committee on conventions between the two Houses was this:

“Should any firm proposals come forward to change the composition of the House of Lords, the conventions between the Houses would have to be examined again”.

Given that the committee had its report unanimously endorsed by both Houses of Parliament—a pretty rare occurrence—is it not the clear responsibility of the Government to reconvene the committee or establish a similar committee so that this crucial matter of the constitutional impact of an elected House of Lords on the relationship between the two Houses can be debated publicly? It is the very least the Government should provide.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

We will indeed be debating this and the whole issue of House of Lords reform when we have the report of the committee. The noble Lord may recall that during his debate I answered a question from the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, on exactly this issue. I suggested then that he was putting the cart before the horse. We need to see the shape of House of Lords reform, as proposed by the draft Bill, before we are able to consider how the conventions would fit in to that new House. To try to anticipate the reports of the committee would be a great mistake.