High Speed 2

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome not only the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has introduced this debate, but also his splendid, comprehensive opening speech, which covered so many of the arguments. Inevitably, a debate such as this will be pretty polarised; you cannot be half way in favour of this, stopping it half way along the tracks somewhere—you are either for or against it, and I am unequivocally, unashamedly, massively for it. I hope that there is no uncertainty about that.

I thought it would be helpful to look at some of the objections—and of course we acknowledge that people who are directly affected by the route will be very concerned indeed. Whether you are for or against this proposition, you will acknowledge and recognise, as with other major developments, that there must be proper compensation and recognition for those who are directly affected.

It is worth taking a little trip down memory lane, because when the original proposal for a London to Birmingham railway was put forward in 1832, the House of Lords threw it out. We know, due to a splendid article by Nick Serpell, that many of the grounds for that were stunningly similar to the objections that are being presented today. The effect on wildlife was mentioned, as well as the demolition of rural communities and the big estates.

I would richly enjoy reading out all these quotes, but here is just one, from one of the contributors to the early part of the debate:

“You are proposing to cut up our estates in all directions … If this sort of thing be permitted to go on, you will in a very few years destroy the nobility”.

That is the kind of objection that was going around at the time. Most of the objections were very similar. Why do we want to go so fast? By the way, the first trains took five and a half hours. I am sure that whether you are in favour of HS2 or not, you will prefer the present service to one that would have taken five and a half hours. Thank heaven—I hope we can all agree on this—that the objections that were originally presented were overcome and that at least we had a railway from London to Birmingham. We did not require the people of the 19th century to get from here to Birmingham by canal or stagecoach; there was a mechanism other than that, which was terrific. So many of the objections proved to be false. The wildlife comes back amazingly soon after the cuttings and the embankments have been built. Of course, the investment has been repaid—I was going to say 100 times over— 1,000 times over. I could not begin to calculate the economic benefit of the original London to Birmingham railway.

I mentioned that it was a Victorian railway. Essentially, we rely, in the 21st century, on a Victorian railway. It is a marvellous railway; wonderful engineers built it, and phenomenal engineers kept it patched up over all the years and made improvements, keeping the trains running, by and large, while they did all that. However, a Victorian railway serves us today. There is one big exception—that it is not even as good as the Victorian railways because large chunks of the system have been closed down. Routes, railways and stations all over the place were closed. One railway in particular that was closed down was a fine north-south route between London, Leicester and Nottingham—the Great Central Railway—that was closed down in 1969. Therefore in proposing a new railway we are not revolutionary in adding to what has historically been available; we are trying to repair some of the damage that was done by the vandalism of the Beeching era, when so much damage was done. Therefore I say, “Thanks very much” to the Victorians, but that will not do for the 21st century.

I now come to the very common argument from the people who are opposed to this new line. I am sorry that there is no easy way. They say, “Let’s improve the existing railway. Let’s make some modifications to it so that trains can run through at greater capacity levels, with bigger trains”. We have been doing this for more than 80 years. We have kept on patching up, making do and mending, and amazingly, we have kept the trains running while we have done that. However, that is saturated. That argument has gone—there is no easy solution to that proposal. Interestingly, people do not ever say that about the motorways. I do not remember people saying, “We should not have built the M1 or the M5. We should have built loads of bypasses, strengthened the bridges and got more traffic running through on the old roads”. There comes a point when that proposal becomes ridiculous, and as far as the railway that we need for the 21st century is concerned, it is a ridiculous proposal.

If people are serious about massive improvements on the north-south routes in this country to be done on the existing system, please do not travel by train while it is being done. You have seen nothing yet of weekend closures, bus substitute services and holiday closures. You cannot rebuild a railway to 21st-century standards while you are trying to run the trains on the existing routes. There would be huge dislocation if that approach was adopted.

This is a visionary proposal. I salute my Government —the previous Labour Government—for introducing the proposal in the first place. I congratulate the coalition Government on sticking to their guns and acknowledging that this essential part of our country’s infrastructure has to come about. I salute the people involved: the former Secretary of State, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the present Secretary of State, Patrick McLoughlin. It is not an easy thing to do, because the opposition is so widespread in so many ways, and so personal. However, I appeal: let us think for a moment of the astonishing vision and engineering skills of the Victorians who built our rail network, which, as I have said, miraculously serves us today. Our railway-engineering expertise was exported all over the world. They had that vision which we massively benefit from today; it is part of our responsibility to have a similar vision to ensure that future generations have a modern, 21st-century rail network.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the future for the east coast main line includes the intercity express programme to replace the existing high-speed trains, which are very old. There is an option to extend the IEP to include replacing the 225 trains. The Government will have to decide later this year whether to take that option.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, is it a fair summary of the Government’s position that if an organisation in the private sector is making a mess of things and losing money, the taxpayer should pick it up and sort it out and that as soon as it is profitable again it should be returned to the private sector?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord knows perfectly well that that is not a fair analysis of what went wrong with the east coast railway line. I am sure he would not suggest bringing an airline into direct operation by the Government.

Daylight Saving

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government are not being wet on the issue. If the noble Lord would like to start negotiations with Mr Willie Walsh, he is welcome to do so. However, I accept that the noble Lord’s analysis about the effect on tourism and leisure activities. That is a very good point. I am acutely aware of it when I attend the Great Dorset Steam Fair in September, because by 8 o’clock it is getting dark.

[Lord Grocott]

The Minister talked about going back. Is it not worth while looking at the history book rather than the crystal ball on this issue? It has been tried once and Parliament, the Government and presumably public opinion—my memory is not that precise—decided that it was an experiment that had not been successful and that we should revert to the previous situation. In the spirit of openness, will the Minister place in the Library a copy of the arguments that were used in order to end the experiment that was deemed at the time to have been unsuccessful?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I suspect that the debates in Hansard will be very illuminating as to why at that point it was decided not to persist with the experiment. As the aviation industry has developed considerably since the trial, it would have much greater effect on that industry. It would probably not have such an adverse effect on the construction industry and in agriculture, however, because much more artificial lighting is now used by them.

Apprenticeships

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend is right to point to the difficulties for people with dyslexia and other forms of learning disadvantage in passing traditional tests and exams. It has been identified that certain levels of maths and English are important even in very practical areas, but we are looking to the consultation to give us further ideas so that young people, or indeed adults, are not disadvantaged when they have, as he says, very practical skills but cannot meet stringent requirements for maths and English. We will look at the different ways in which these areas can be assessed in order to ensure that young people are not disadvantaged in securing proper, high-quality apprenticeships. The assessment should not make it more difficult for them to demonstrate their skill areas.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, like other noble Lords I welcome the importance that is being attached to apprenticeships. Historically they have proved to be important both to people who have gone through them and to their employers. I want to focus on one sentence in the Statement. I hope it means what I think it does, because it marks a significant step forward. It states:

“And we are extending apprenticeships to higher level skills, and into the professions like insurance, accountancy and the law”.

The trend over recent decades has been to make entrance to many more professions graduate-only, which has made them more and more socially exclusive and difficult for people who historically were able to take alternative routes without going through a degree course. If this means a check on that trend and perhaps a reversal so that different routes into these professions become more widely available, that is, as I say, a significant step forward.

I should like a little more detail. Have discussions been held with the professions as to how this might be done? Is it possible to extend this to other professions such as journalism, which I know reasonably well? Many would enter it at the age of 16 by working on the local newspaper, whereas now across wide swathes of the profession, entry is virtually graduate-only. Also, can the Minister give us some idea of the timescale and whether any targets are in mind? However, I repeat that this is to be warmly welcomed if it really means that there is to be a wider and more socially inclusive method of entry into a whole range of professions that have been steadily excluding people over recent decades.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I welcome the comments of the noble Lord, who I am sure like me remembers the days when there were many practical routes into all these professions and trades—routes that over the years have become graduate-only. We in no way wish to downplay the value of degrees, but an important step in raising the profile and breadth of apprenticeships will be taken if they can be linked to the status and standing that these sorts of professions have. It is definitely something that we are encouraging. We have not set any targets yet, and again I come back to the fact that this is a consultation period. However, we have been in discussions with the different professional areas. At the moment we have a total of 27 projects and two trailblazers, which will provide more than 25,000 higher apprenticeship places over the next three years. Those higher apprenticeships are going to be available in the very areas we are discussing. People are embarking on apprenticeships in a much wider range of professional and work areas than those that are traditionally associated with them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I admire my noble friend’s ability to bring to everyone’s attention the organisations close to his heart. I am quite sure, with the publicity that he has given them, that people will be very anxious to take up those offers.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, we have three minutes. I will take 30 seconds. Not surprisingly, the Minister was getting notes from the Box in response to my question, which was in a fairly narrow area of her brief. Will she undertake to write to me with as much detail as she has available on this subject of apprenticeships into various professions, and place a copy of whatever information she can provide in the Library?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Yes, I will certainly be very happy to do that. I do not want to sound like a broken record, but I repeat that these issues are out for consultation and we very much hope to hear feedback from the professions that have already expressed interest to see how we can increase these areas.

Railways: High Speed Rail

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend asked me some important questions about opening events occurring at the same time. Unfortunately, I cannot give the assurance that the noble Lord wants; the date is too far away. However, I will take the point on board. My noble friend also asked me about the upgrading of the east coast main line. It is important to keep that line working properly, but of course we are talking about something quite a long way ahead. I therefore cannot give my noble friend any specific assurances, other than the key one that the HS2 project will not divert resources from the conventional railway system.

[Lord Grocott]

Like other speakers, I warmly welcome the Minister’s Statement. After all, in this country we built the very first railways and exported the technology to build railways across the world, although sadly in recent decades we have fallen behind. This is a very positive—and for me, exciting—development. I have two points to make from our history. The Minister might find the first reassuring; the second is a question.

The first, reassuring point was made by a railway historian working at the Ironbridge Gorge Museum in my former constituency. He helpfully reminded me that many cartoons and sketches of the 1830s and 1840s speak of cattle not producing milk, hunting and agricultural land destroyed, and the picturesque nature of the English countryside lost forever. I am sure that this is familiar to the House. We all understand the objections that will inevitably come from people along the line and I welcome the assurances that the Minister has given about full consultation. However, in a relatively short period of time, these railways became a treasured part of the landscape.

Secondly, I put the following less reassuring point to the Minister. This is an exciting prospect of about 300 miles of railway—I have not added it all up. The Victorians managed to construct thousands of miles of railway. They did it with picks and shovels, and they managed to do it pretty quickly. Is 2033 the earliest date we can talk about? I have always wanted to live until I am 93, and this would give me an added incentive, but surely it should be possible with JCBs and whatever else modern technology offers to slightly improve on that timescale?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is an exciting project. However, we need to be doing it for the right reasons, and I believe—as I think most noble Lords do—that we are. I am sure all noble Lords will agree that it is important that we have an effective and fair system of planning for these large infrastructure projects. However, as the noble Lord will know from his experience as a former government Chief Whip, the process for getting a hybrid Bill through Parliament is quite protracted; it is not an easy thing to do. However, we will do it.

Public Bodies (Abolition of the Railway Heritage Committee) Order 2013

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I will take the opportunity first and foremost to congratulate my noble friend Lord Faulkner on his unremitting commitment to this subject, on his many years of service on the committee and on the relentless way in which he has turned the issue around. I am sure that the Government must regret publishing their long list of bodies to be abolished, only to discover a little late in the day that many of them were doing incredibly useful work that was much valued not just by the people directly involved but by the community at large. That is the point I will make about railway heritage. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, the issue is important not just to those of us—of whom I am not ashamed to acknowledge that I am one—who are rail enthusiasts. The income of several generations of my family depended on the rail industry, but the importance of the work of this committee goes much wider.

There can be few countries worldwide where one cannot find examples of British railway engineering. We not only invented the railways but in many countries of the world built them, along with the locomotives that ran on them. I will mention the railways of Paraguay and Zambia because I have seen them. Companies from Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Glasgow and Manchester make the equipment that built their locomotives and that maintains their railways. I do not want to indulge in hyperbole but I imagine that there are few countries in the world where there is no British railway engineering. This is an achievement we should celebrate. It is a national issue, rather than one simply for people interested in railway heritage.

Perhaps I may be forgiven for being slightly parochial in drawing the attention of the House to Coalbrookdale in the Ironbridge Gorge, Telford, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution. It was the marriage of Richard Trevithick and the Coalbrookdale Company that produced the steam locomotive that ran on iron rails in the first decade of the 19th century. There is a replica in the Ironbridge Gorge Museum. The tradition that it celebrates is a wonderful example of something that is of tremendous interest—I repeat—to many more people than simply those who are interested in railways. Half a million people visit the Ironbridge Gorge Museum every year.

I conclude by saying that it is not just history that we should celebrate. The rail heritage industry—perhaps it is not so much an industry as a movement—is of real relevance to our economy today. Engineering activities are taking place in a number of centres that are keeping skills going that otherwise would be lost. Locomotives are being built at Boston Lodge in north Wales, and there are engineering apprenticeships at Crewe that even today are keeping going skills that might otherwise be lost. That is of tremendous importance. Finally, the subject is of great importance to the tourism industry. Members of the other place who have a heritage railway in their constituency know that it attracts visitors and brings strength to the economy.

My noble friend has embarked on a noble exercise to ensure that the committee’s functions are maintained. As this is an amicable debate I will not introduce a sour note, but perhaps I may send a gentle and friendly memo to this Government and to what I hope will be the subsequent Labour Government, suggesting that before they abolish something they should check whether it is doing something useful.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to my noble friend Lord Faulkner. He has worked tirelessly on railway heritage. If it was not for him, we would now be in a complete mess. I was very surprised to hear the Minister say that the Railway Heritage Committee was a good example of voluntary work that has now been moved to the Science Museum. He said that it had had a bit of administrative support from the Science Museum before, or that it now has it. I cannot see what the difference is between them. It is moving the deckchairs for the sake of it. I suspect that it will cost more and do exactly the same thing; where is the benefit? My noble friend Lord Grocott talked about old steam engines. A month ago I went round the National Railway Museum in New Delhi, where most of the engines, as he said, were built in this country—largely in Glasgow—and they were very fine. I hope that this tradition continues. Of course, they now build very good engines of their own in India.

Having listened to the Minister’s explanation, which I believe lasted a good seven minutes, and to the story that my noble friend Lord Faulkner told about the work that he had to do just to move things across to the Science Museum, I am afraid that my only conclusion is: thank God he was there to do it. It will be fine in the future when the next Labour Government make things better, but this is a classic case of dogma ruling brain when it started. As my noble friend Lord Grocott said, I hope that it is not repeated.

Railways: London Midland Rail Franchise

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Countess is absolutely right. What actually encourages London Midland to sort this problem out are the provisions of the franchise that contain the necessary penalties.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, does the noble Earl share the pleasure and delight that I certainly do in the knowledge that his grandfather presided over a wonderful Labour Government, who in 1948 nationalised the railways? Does he agree that in terms of managing the railways, that Labour Government were a huge improvement on this Conservative Government?

Localism Bill

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

Sorry, I apologise, but it is the last day before the recess. It is Wednesday, although it feels like Thursday. We have 36 groups of amendments on the agenda this afternoon and I think it unlikely that we will get through them. I did a calculation earlier and I thought that worked out at less than 10 minutes per group; it is now even less. I wonder how the Government intend to proceed. We have been very co-operative on this Bill. Both our Front Bench and Back-Benchers have been extraordinarily disciplined in their speaking, as have colleagues around the House. The Bill has attracted a great deal of interest.

We acceded to the House starting at 10 o'clock today, which is unusual. The House sat until well past 11 o'clock last night. We agreed also to have two days in succession on the Bill. I think it unreasonable to expect the House to sit endlessly on the Bill. I suggest to your Lordships that it would be right and proper that we have the rest of the day on this Bill in Committee and that a further day be tabled for it in the autumn. I made a perfectly reasonable offer to the Government to shrink the minimum intervals so that the Committee can go reasonably seamlessly into Report later, because I appreciate that the Government want to make progress with their legislation—as they should, that is a principle that we on this side entirely support.

I hope that the noble Lord the Leader, in the absence of the Government Chief Whip, can furnish me with some answers. I am more than happy to have discussions off the Floor of the House. I gave the Chief Whip notice that I would raise this matter before your Lordships, but the House need some answers. Staff, Members on our Front and Back Bench, Back and Front-Benchers opposite, and those who have been intimately involved need to be given some guidance as to how the House will proceed. It is my very firm view that the House should stop at 7 pm. We usually managed our business so that we stopped mid-afternoon on the last day before a recess. It is not our fault that the Government have got themselves into something of a car crash with their legislative programme at this early stage—after all, we are some months away from this Session coming to an end. The House requires some answers.

[Lord Grocott]

In fully supporting what my noble friend said, my point may seem trivial, but I hope that the House will not think that. There is a pretty good tradition in this House that when there is a major Statement, a really significant Statement, 40 minutes, not 20 minutes, will be allowed for Back Bench contributions. I understand that a request was made on that basis but refused today.

It would be very difficult to think of a more significant Statement than the one we have had today. I cannot think of one. The Leader of the House has been around a lot longer than I have, and perhaps he can draw on one. It was a Statement by the Prime Minister for which he had specifically come back from his tour of Africa and, in the other place, it is being followed by a debate. They will have about six hours to discuss these major issues. We have had about 40 or 45 minutes.

It is no use saying that we had a debate last Friday. We did. I was not here, but I have read it, and it was an outstanding debate. There is no reason not to think that this House could make a substantial contribution to these hugely important issues. I should like an explanation from the Leader of the House why the tradition of major Statements having 40 minutes for Back Bench contributions has been ignored on this occasion.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is right to say that there have been such occasions. I do not know whether it is a tradition, but if it is, it is overwhelmingly on issues where this House has a particular expertise, which is why the past few occasions that I can remember have been on the future of this House. This is an important Statement, but it was no more important than many Statements that we take every week. The purpose of a Statement is to bring to the House at the earliest possible opportunity a change of policy or a statement by the Government, and that is what we have done. I can absolutely promise the noble Lord that this is not the last time that we shall be discussing this issue. Over the next few months—indeed, years—we will have plenty of opportunity to debate it, as we have done recently, not only last Friday but on another Statement only a week ago. It was on that basis that I did not see the need to detain your Lordships any longer.

It might interest the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, to know that we offered the opportunity to the Opposition that we could sit tomorrow—Thursday—to have a debate, but that was rejected. It is a pity, because not only could we have had a debate on the press, but we could have risen earlier this afternoon and finished off the Localism Bill tomorrow.

I have heard these little complaints from noble Lords on the Front Bench opposite that we are working them too hard on the Localism Bill. But this is day 10 in Committee and it is 3.15 pm, so we have plenty of time to continue work on the Bill. It has long been known that the Government’s aim is to finish the Committee stage of the legislation today. That may prove to be impossible but, with a fair wind and the co-operation of the opposition Chief Whip, there is no reason why we should not finish. My sense is that those who have been sitting in Committee for the last nine and a half days would rather like to get on with it and to be heard. We are about to be off for six weeks. I share with the opposition Chief Whip the concerns that he has rightly for the staff of this House, who work incredibly hard for us. The good news is that from tomorrow they, too, like noble Lords, will be able to have a long lie-in and a rest. They do not need to come back and be bothered about this until September.