Local Government Bill [HL]

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 28th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, again I have the pleasure of following the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, as I seem to be doing permanently on this Bill, and again, as previously, we are in full agreement. I could not have put any better what she has just said. In moving the amendment, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, said he accepts that we are where we are and that the amendment is about the future and not the past. But he was followed immediately by his noble friend Lord Howarth, who spent a considerable time telling us that it is all about the past and that he far from accepts that we are where we are. I think that the noble Lord on the Front Bench must be wishing that he could hide from his noble friend sitting two Benches behind him.

I understand very well why noble Lords on the Benches opposite, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and others, believe that the previous proposals were right. I understand therefore why they believe that the Government are wrong to carry out the manifesto commitments of both parties in the coalition to get rid of them as soon as possible, but what I do not understand is why he cannot accept that we are where we are. That is simply not going to happen.

I listened with great interest and some sympathy to all that the noble Lord said about the benefits of unitary government. As I declare almost every time I speak on this issue, I have been a member of a unitary council—as I still am—for many years, and there are benefits to it. But, as I also seem to have to keep saying, the future that lies before all local government and before the country over the next few years means that this really is not the time for us to be distracted into what is almost always, and certainly has been in the case of Norfolk and Devon, enormously time-consuming, expensive and perhaps above all emotionally draining exercises in this sort of boundary restructuring. What we need to concentrate on now is how councils, whether in two-tier or unitary areas, can work together by sharing services and, in some cases where appropriate, by sharing offices. They should not be arguing about expensive boundary changes and unitary restructuring. That is simply off the agenda.

Should there ever be a time when this comes back on to the agenda, whether that is in the lifetime of this coalition Government, which I must say seems unlikely, or—

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords—

[Lord Tope]

Perhaps I may finish the sentence and then I will give way to the noble Lord. I have nearly forgotten the sentence. If this comes back on to the agenda in the lifetime of this coalition Government or in the lifetime of any future Government, it does not need an amendment to this Bill to enable it to do so.

[Lord Grocott]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. In view of his opposition to what he has described as expensive boundary changes, I wonder whether he will join us on this side of the House in opposing the expensive parliamentary boundary changes that have been proposed in the Government’s most recent legislation.

[Lord Tope]

Unless something much more revolutionary than I expect is taking place, a change of parliamentary boundaries, which happens fairly regularly, does not entail the wholesale restructuring of the local authorities in an area, and that is where the expense arises. So the answer is no.

I have said it before and I want to say it again because we keep going over the same ground. If there is any message coming from this House—personally, I believe strongly that local government actually knows best and should be left to get on without messages from this House or anywhere else—it should be this. If noble Lords opposite have any influence, particularly with the city councils concerned, they should use that influence to urge these councils and councillors to try to put the difficult and emotional past few years behind them and to build new and constructive relationships so that they can work together co-operatively in the way we have talked about.

There is already evidence that that is happening in both Exeter and Norwich and Devon and Norfolk. We should encourage that; noble Lords opposite should spend their time and energy encouraging that to happen. We on this side of the House should do the same, particularly in relation to the counties. Where we have friends and influence, we too should recognise that the cities believe that they have grievances. Whether or not we accept that they are justified, let us accept that they are truly felt and work together to try to overcome that and to build a positive and constructive relationship between authorities of whatever nature, better to serve their people in what will be an extremely difficult, three, four or five years to come.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Burnett]

No, I am not giving way any more—the noble Lord has had his say. This is a distraction and a huge waste of money. We know the duplication that will occur and we know that economies of scale will be lost. Let us proceed with the Bill.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, having listened carefully to this debate, I am struck by two things. The first is that no one on the opposite Benches, especially not the three Lib Dem speakers, have in any sense argued in principle for a two-tier system. They have all said in varying ways that they support unitary local government but not at this moment, in these particular local authorities or at this time in the development of our economy. In principle, though, they all seem to be in favour of unitary local government; if they are not, no doubt they will intervene on me. I think that that is also the Minister’s position, although she will be speaking in a moment or two. The arguments against are ones of pragmatism, relevant to the details of the moment.

The other thing that has been striking is that this has been a theoretical debate. There has been no reference whatever to what has actually happened to those local authorities that took advantage of the changes made by the Conservative Government prior to 1997. I pay tribute to that Government again, as I did at Second Reading. I am enormously grateful to them for giving Telford unitary local government. That was done properly through consultation. Ministers discussed it with local MPs, as Ministers should. This is why I say—I did not think that I would get the opportunity to quote Nye Bevan in relation to this amendment, but it is the obvious piece of advice—“Don’t look in the crystal ball when you can read the history book”. That Conservative Government, to their credit, gave unitary local government to a large number of towns and cities, including Telford, as I said, which did not have the benefit that my noble friend referred to of having been a unitary local authority in the past. In that respect, it was a much bigger experiment in Telford than anywhere else and it has been a resounding success.

If the door is now being closed to future applications for unitary local government, I appeal to the Government to look at the record to check those local authorities that were given unitary status by the previous Government to find out where in fact costs have escalated, a risk that a number of speakers have suggested, and to see whether people there now regret the decision that was made. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to Torbay. Obviously I do not know that area, so I am not trying to contest his evidence, but I would be interested to know, given that he described Torbay unitary authority as a failure, whether the people of Torbay are now petitioning to re-establish a two-tier system in Torbay.

In my experience, all the evidence—from one town in one particular part of the country—is that, while there was strong opposition from the county to the establishment of unitary local government, as you would expect, the experience has been successful. The people of Telford are proud of the local authority, which has had both parties in control of it—there have been both Labour and Conservative administrations, so I am not being partisan when I say this—and there was all-party support for the application in the first place. This, together with all the other local authorities that have achieved unitary status, is valuable evidence that should be looked at before the Government shut the door on the possibility of any other local authority that wants the benefit of unitary local government achieving it.

I appeal to the Government. I can see no reason why they would want to object to the amendment; it simply leaves doors open for the future. Even if they are determined to object to it, surely it is reasonable for me and others to ask them not to. It was, after all, a Conservative Government who established these local authorities. I, a dyed-in-the-wool several-generation supporter of the Labour Party, am saying that that was a good decision. What is more, I am saying that the evidence of the past 12 or 15 years is that it was a good decision and the Conservative Government were right to do it, as we were right to petition for it. Please do not close the door and please look in the history books.