Ukraine

Debate between Lord Grenfell and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I fully endorse the incredibly wise and perceptive comments of my noble friend.

[Lord Grenfell (Lab)]

My Lords, I sometimes think that we are living in a bit of a dream world here. If anybody listened to President Putin’s press conference late this morning, as I did, they would have been left in absolutely no doubt whatever that he is unimpressed by all the threats that are being made against him. He may not in his heart of hearts believe that, but that is what he is saying. He is not impressed by sanctions, or by this or that with which we are threatening him. Is it not the truth that, as the noble Lord, Lord King, has said, Ukraine, and Crimea in particular, are extremely important to him and to Russia? He is not about to give in easily on this.

Would it not be far better if we stopped constantly saying that territorial integrity must be maintained when we know that it is very likely that it will not be, and that the solution will probably be that President Putin will get a lot of what he wants? In the end, Ukraine cannot exist if a part of that nation is in constant turmoil and being threatened by Russia. It would be far better, in my view, if an arrangement was reached whereby Crimea went back into the Russian Federation. Although there would still be problems in eastern Ukraine, you might then possibly have a united Ukraine which was capable of looking after its own affairs without further fear of Russia.

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes important points. It was exactly these sensitivities to which I referred in answering the Question on Thursday and, indeed, in the Statement today. We recognise and understand those sensitivities, and the emotional connection to which my noble friend Lord King has referred between Russia and Crimea and Ukraine. However, we must also not forget that a sovereign nation has been violated, and this cannot be the way in which we conduct international affairs. Simply to stand by and say that we recognise the emotional connection and the history of the relationship between Russia and Ukraine, and must therefore to some extent accept and stand back from this situation, would not be the right approach. As my noble friend said earlier, there are territorial disputes all around the world. What kind of a signal would we therefore be sending?

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Grenfell and Baroness Warsi

Friday 10th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, spoke today about Alice in Wonderland and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to “tea parties”, but the quality of the debate, the expertise, the experience and the humour have not allowed my concentration to wander on to thoughts of Mad Hatters, Cheshire Cats and cream cakes.

When I first joined your Lordships’ House many years ago, I was told that it was good practice to acknowledge most people’s contributions when you stand to respond to a debate. Six and a half hours after we started, even at the speed at which I can speak—and I can speak at speed—I could not realistically refer to the dozens of excellent contributions that we have heard today. Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will be understanding. My noble friend Lord Dobbs is to be applauded for introducing the Bill, and for his excellent speech. Huge numbers of people across this country, as well as in this House, will thank him for it.

The matter before us is about Europe’s future, our country’s place in it and, above all, democracy. It is about giving the people of this country the decisive say that is their right. At a time of profound change in Europe and scepticism about Europe across Europe, the Bill could give the British people the power to decide one of the greatest questions facing Britain: whether we should be in the EU or out of it.

In deference to my noble friends in the Liberal Democrats, I must say that I am not speaking for the whole coalition. As will be obvious to the House, I am speaking on behalf of the Conservative Party. Two years ago we passed the European Union Act 2011 to ensure that no Government could agree to transfer areas of power from Britain to the EU without a referendum. Sadly, at that time, as we see now, it was met with complete indecision from the Opposition, who resolutely and bravely abstained. However, support for it, especially now from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, is welcome. Two years on, they have adopted our policy and we are pleased that they have done so. Today, with this Bill, we discover a similar wave of indecision on the opposition Benches. I certainly look forward to a time when they could possibly adopt our current position as well.

The two points that we have heard from noble Lords many times today are, first, about proper scrutiny of the Bill and, secondly, about the clear will that has been expressed by the other place. I will briefly remind noble Lords of the very large majorities on votes in the other place: at Second Reading, 275 and 304; on Report, 257, 261, 290 and 299, to list but a few. On many occasions, the numbers passing through the other Division Lobbies did not rise even to double figures. The other place had six Committee days, and three Report days—many hours to scrutinise the Bill and many hours for opponents of the Bill to table an amendment to kill the Bill if they, as the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, said today, opposed it vigorously, or to table and vote for amendments which now exercise noble Lords, especially those on the Labour and indeed the Liberal Democrat Benches. But we did not see that there.

No institution can survive without the support of the people. The EU needs reform if it is to be democratically sustainable for all its members, which it will not be if ever greater centralisation sucks ever more powers from its member states. As the Dutch Government recently said,

“the time of an ‘ever closer union’ in every possible policy area is behind us”,

and they are right. Our policy, therefore, is to seek reform so that the EU can be more competitive and flexible for the modern age so that powers can come back to the countries of the European Union and so that national Parliaments—the indispensable vessels of democracy—can have a more powerful role and to put the decision in the hands of the British people. This Bill does that. That is why every Member of this House who is a true democrat can and should unite behind the Bill. It is about letting the people decide.

This is not a pro-Europe Bill or an anti-Europe Bill; it is a pro-democracy Bill. It will finally enable the British people to have their say on one of the greatest questions facing our country. The last time the public had their say was nearly 40 years ago. Since then, the Common Market has become something that nobody could have envisaged. We are convinced that we can negotiate a fresh settlement, and it should be up to the British people to decide whether they want to be in or out.

Those who like the EU as it is—not me, but evidently some on the Labour Benches—can campaign to see the EU regain its democratic legitimacy in this country. Those, like me, who want to see Britain succeed in reforming the EU can see what success we have in changing it and then put that choice to the people. Those who want Britain to leave the EU, come what may, will also have the chance to persuade the British people. Ultimately it would be up to the voters to decide and that is the essence of democracy. That is why my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said that in 2015 we,

“will ask for a mandate from the British people for a Conservative Government to negotiate a new settlement with our European partners in the next Parliament”.

I have stood at this Dispatch Box on numerous occasions and spoken about the benefits of EU membership but also about how much better the EU could be: more competitive, more flexible and more democratically accountable. It is in that vein that we have been ambitious about reform.

The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, can be optimistic. There can be no doubt about our commitment to reform. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister is tirelessly, in this Parliament, never mind the next one, going around Europe making sure that this country gets what it needs. The Opposition do not have a policy to reform the EU but we do, and we are pursuing it. Labour never cut the EU budget, but we already have. Labour signed us up to eurozone bailouts, and the Prime Minister has got us out of them. Labour surrendered part of the rebate; the Prime Minister has never surrendered part of the rebate. Noble Lords can rest assured that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is well equipped to go around Europe preserving our national interest.

It has been said by a number of noble Lords that now is not the right time, that the uncertainty would not be right and that the date is not the right date. There is already uncertainty. Public calls for a referendum are growing. I refer noble Lords to a UN survey, published only months ago, which said that, despite the debate in the United Kingdom, in the first half of 2013 the UK attracted more foreign direct investment than anywhere else in the world. Ernst & Young reported last year that the UK attracted nearly a fifth of all European foreign direct investment in 2012. There is a question out there, and that question needs to be answered.

Some of the debate we have had today has been on the question that would be put on the paper, on the constitutional position and the binding of a future Parliament. Some of the debate has focused on trading quotes of what different Members from different parties have said at different times. There has been some questioning of motivation, but I can say that the number of speakers, the interest both inside and outside Parliament, the passion and deeply held views all show that this is an important political issue of our time. Some, like my noble friend Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, said that there was no need for a Bill because it could be dealt with in manifestos at the next general election. Well, I can say on behalf of the Conservative Party that, in our manifesto, there will be a commitment to have a referendum.

However, we have heard neither from the Labour Party nor from our friends in the Liberal Democrats definitively whether or not they will have a referendum commitment in their manifestos. My sense is that both will eventually move to that position, which is why their objections to the Bill today, I think, leave a bad taste.

[Lord Grenfell]

Is the noble Baroness asking us to believe that there is not one single flaw in the Bill? Is the Conservative Party claiming a kind of papal infallibility that cannot be changed?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, my point is that we have heard clearly from neither the Labour Front Bench nor the Liberal Democrats whether, at the next election, the question of a referendum will or will not be in their manifesto.

North Korea

Debate between Lord Grenfell and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I think that the future of North Korea goes beyond the remit of this immediate Question.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, it is good news that the ambassador of North Korea has been called in. I have not heard many people mentioning South Korea—the Republic of Korea—in this exchange. Are Her Majesty’s Government speaking to the South Koreans to urge them not to try to take any kind of unilateral action and that whatever they do, it should be done through the United Nations?

[Baroness Warsi]

As the noble Lord will appreciate, this was a Private Notice Question. I am not sure if any discussions have taken place immediately, certainly within the past 24 hours, on the specific point that the noble Lord raises. We are, however, in general discussions with the South Koreans on this matter and, as I said earlier, they form part of the six-nation dialogue.

Russian Federation: Council of Europe

Debate between Lord Grenfell and Baroness Warsi

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, we believe that the recommendation should have been passed, not to chastise Russia for its human rights record but to help to improve human rights protections within that country, as we would do for any Council of Europe member state. It is unfortunate that in this particular matter the procedural points became the focus of the debate rather than the real substance that was in the report. It is essential that every member of the Council of Europe, including Russia, respects the obligations and commitments that it signed up to on joining the organisation, whether or not there is a recommendation.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, is the Prime Minister, in dismissing out of hand the European Court of Human Rights’ ruling on voting rights for prisoners, not giving aid and comfort to members of the Council of Europe such as Russia that see fit to pick and choose which of the undertakings they made when joining the Council they wish to honour?

[Baroness Warsi]

As I now have the human rights brief at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, I see that there is an interesting dilemma in terms of human rights records around the world and the position that we adopt on them. There is also the question of how we implement human rights decisions in relation to the UK. However, I am very front-footed and clear when I say that abuses that are taking place in places such as Russia, which form the basis of the report that noble Lords are aware of, are very different from the case of voting rights for prisoners.