Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Greenhalgh and Lord Blencathra

Committee stage
Monday 28th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am sorry; with the sheer length of the debate, we are now approaching the two-hour mark, so I hope that my noble friend will forgive me if I did not address that specific point. However, I did address the point that the Valentine’s Day amendments, tabled on 14 February, were made in haste. The work around impact assessment was therefore not carried out at that time, but obviously we intend to update our impact assessment to reflect all the amendments that the Government have brought forward; that is the good practice my noble friend seeks, I think.

I thank noble Lords for this debate, which has been an important and necessary part of the scrutiny of this legislation. I hope that, with the reassurances given, noble Lords will be happy to withdraw or not press their amendments. This has been a feast of a debate so let us conclude it with the two words that we used to say in our formal hall: benedicto benedicatur.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, we have spent two hours on this group of amendments. It is probably the second-most important group in the Bill, after the one we dealt with last week. There were more than 45 amendments down, so I make no apology that we have spent considerable time discussing them.

Building Safety

Debate between Lord Greenhalgh and Lord Blencathra

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate is not being slow; if you are the Bishop of London, you have to be pretty quick. As a backstop, we have committed to look at solutions that involve tax, which is a Treasury matter—it has been very clear about that—or legal means to do these things. I am well aware of the work that has been done by Steve Day, supported by many experts, in bringing forward the polluter pays proposal. My personal view, as a humble Minister, is that we need a building-by-building assessment of liability if we are to ensure that the polluter pays. But that is down the road, and the sequence is: voluntary contributions first, and some of these other things are being positioned as backstops.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I declare a potential interest as someone who has some wooden decking on a balcony. I congratulate my noble friend on the wonderful Statement he has made, his own personal views today, and the work he has done over the last 12 months. More particularly, will he convey to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State the thanks of millions of leaseholders for the astonishing announcement he made yesterday? I always believed that, when he was appointed, there was no one better than Michael Gove to cut through and deliver success.

I do not want the taxpayer to spend a penny on this, but I want the developers and the freeholders to do so. With regard to the backstop, I suggest that we need to hold a sword of Damocles over the developers’ heads. The voluntary approach, I am afraid, will not work. Can my noble friend therefore bring forward urgent legislation—which we pass but hold in abeyance as that sword of Damocles—to let them see that Parliament means business and that we want legislation on the statute book that we can implement at a moment’s notice if they fail to deliver, rather than spend a year putting it through afterwards? I suggest that as a good tactical approach.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend is a very wise man. With regard to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State—having worked with the Prime Minister for four years when he was mayor, I know that he likes the odd Latin phrase—quod erat demonstrandum: he has done an amazing job coming in to reset this. Of course, there is more work to be done, but I pay tribute to him myself, and I thank my noble friend Lord Blencathra for those kind remarks. I agree with him; they are very wise words.

When we look for the polluter to pay, as in all negotiations, you need both the carrot and the stick. I will use the metaphor of the very distinguished late Archbishop Desmond Tutu: you need your moment of truth and reconciliation, where people come forward and make a voluntary contribution. That could work to a degree, and time will tell how well it works. But equally, as a backstop, you need to prepare for the moment where you go to the Nuremberg trials and look, building by building, at who caused the mess, and make sure that they pay for it. We have started that process with Operation Apex, which looked at who caused the problems in particular buildings. We are getting some specific figures. My right honourable friend got a series of forensic accountants to look at some of this stuff, and more work will be done in that regard. That is very helpful advice.

Building Safety Defects: Costs

Debate between Lord Greenhalgh and Lord Blencathra

Monday 18th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to look at that specific case, because that sounds like an eye-watering sum of money. In the first instance, is full-scale remediation the answer? Has the freeholder looked at mitigation measures that may also achieve an acceptable way of improving things and lowering the fire safety risk? However, that does seem an extremely large sum of money, and I am happy to look into that case.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I do not want leaseholders, nor the taxpayer, to pay a single penny towards these remediation works, but I want the housebuilders to pay for every pound that it takes. I am afraid to say that the proposed levy is simply derisory. Will my noble friend campaign in government for a proper, full-scale windfall tax imposed on the housebuilders? In 2019, four companies—Barratt, Wimpey, Persimmon and Berkeley—posted profits of £3.8 billion. I repeat: one year, four companies, £3.8 billion. They should be made to pay from their profits for their shoddy work. Will my noble friend agree with that and just say, “Yes, Lord Blencathra”?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My noble friend knows that government is not quite so simple. In all seriousness, we have stated publicly that the new tax on developers will raise at least £2 billion over 10 years. We know that the amount of money required is far in excess of that, but there is no upper limit, and we still have not yet announced the detail. We take my noble friend’s point on board with regard to the windfall tax.

Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Greenhalgh and Lord Blencathra

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th June 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we want to move as speedily as possible but, as I stated in my reply, we do not want to set a deadline for things. We want to get this on the statute book very speedily in this Session; that is why it is so early in this Session. That is my answer.

[Lord Blencathra (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I feel rather guilty that I am responding when it really should be my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, who put forward an impeccable case today for the reforms he has suggested.

The one thing that has come through loud and clear to the Minister from all noble Lords is that the current system is totally unsustainable. My amendments are probably not appropriate; I believe the amendments of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham are. If they cannot be accepted into this Bill, it is desperately important that we get them in the full leasehold reform Bill which we expect next year. If my noble friend wishes to put down his amendments on Report, I will support him; he may not wish to push them to a vote, but perhaps the Government need to see on Report that we are serious about talking about the injustice of the current leasehold system.

My noble friend the Minister has said that this is a difficult area and that he is committed to giving leasehold reform “high priority”. If I may say so, the Law Commission is a worthy body, but its problem is that it is full of lawyers; they see leasehold reform as a matter of dotting some “i”s, crossing some “t”s and tweaking an 800 year-old system a bit here and there to make it work better. As politicians—and as politicians in the Commons would say—we find the whole system iniquitous. It is wrong. Perhaps it is those of us from a Scottish background who cannot believe that you buy a property and do not fully own it; it is an extraordinary, wrong system. When the Bill comes next year, we do not want leasehold reform tweaked; we want it stopped for all new contracts.

The wonderful innovation of commonhold failed because we gave developers and other money-grubbing people the choice of continuing with leasehold or commonhold. We thought they would implement common decency and common sense, but they operated a system which made the most money—well, we cannot criticise that; it is inevitable. When the new Bill comes, let there be no choice. Let it be clear that commonhold will be the only system acceptable for all new purchase contracts in future.

That still leaves the problem of current leaseholders. I am very certain that, with Amendment 5 from my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay, the amendments from my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham on a buy-out scheme must be the right direction to go in, because it affords justice to leaseholders who can get out of this wicked system and gives some compensation—too much in my opinion, but who am I to say?—to current freeholders who would demand the right not to be stripped of all their benefits.

On early implementation, I refer my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham to Amendment 26, where I suggest that the Bill should be implemented on Royal Assent. I appreciate that we may need to make exceptions for property for old folks’ homes—I am not sure what the current term is for an old folks’ home, but I believe that is to be exempted for a couple of years for us to figure out how to do it. The rest of this Bill should be implemented as soon as possible after Royal Assent.

With those words—and my apologies; my camera was off a lot of the time so that my machine did not run down, but I heard all the debate—I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part and, in conclusion, emphasise to my noble friend once again that the Government might get away with not sorting out leasehold and ground rents in this Bill, but they will not get away with it next year when the big Bill comes. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Leaseholders and Cladding

Debate between Lord Greenhalgh and Lord Blencathra

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, in addition to other ministerial responsibilities, I am now responsible for looking at leasehold reform. This is not the place to opine on that, but just over 50% of private sector developers and freeholders with aluminium composite material in high-rises funded it and did not pass on the costs to leaseholders—a significant proportion stepped up to the plate and did the right thing.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I declare a possible interest as someone who might be affected. One million leaseholders will still be ripped off by landlords, freeholders and agents who will carry out all possible so-called remediation works and gold-plate them to increase the value of their holdings and make leaseholders pay through the nose for them. Will my noble friend confirm that the Government will bring forward an amendment to the Fire Safety Bill stating that leaseholders will not pay a penny for remedial works but will deal with the genuine anomaly of wear and tear and service charges, for which they should pay? Will he also bring forward urgent legislation on leasehold reform and the full abolition of this iniquitous, prehistoric law which should have no place in a levelled-up society?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend—that will be about five minutes’ work. I agree that leaseholders must be protected from unaffordable costs, particularly if these are driven by unnecessary gold-plating. I agree that leasehold reform needs to be an absolute priority, and it is a priority for this Government.

Business and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Greenhalgh and Lord Blencathra

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blencathra [V]]

My Lords, it would be churlish of me not to intervene at this stage and thank my noble friend the Minister most sincerely for his excellent concession in saying that these national guidelines will now be subject to parliamentary scrutiny via the negative resolution procedure. I chair the Delegated Powers Committee. This is an excellent and very welcome concession.

We make laws in two ways in this country, or we should do—Acts of Parliament and statutory instruments—but in the past few years we have seen a worrying trend of guidance having legal force and a new invention, which we will come to in a Bill very shortly, of something called “protocols”, which are legally enforceable. These are just clever euphemisms for what should be regulations. I am delighted that my noble friend the Minister will put these on a statutory basis. I also look forward to his amendment next week in time to set minimum guidelines for access on pavements.

In the meantime, I thank my noble friend most sincerely for this excellent change of heart today.

[Lord Greenhalgh]

I thank my noble friend for his comments. Of course, I noted the points about the need for a minimum access requirement.