Forest Holidays: Forestry Commission Stake

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, although that is slightly wide of the Question, I think I can none the less confirm what the noble Lord says.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, when this Question was first put down, I had no idea what Forest Holidays was, but I have been looking into it, and the more I do so, the murkier the whole business seems. It appears that, since the framework agreement in 2012 and the new joint venture companies having been set up, pieces of the forestry estate have effectively been handed to venture capitalists to pursue log cabin developments. The questions that need to be asked are: first, are the public getting value for money for that through the forestry commissioners? There are arguments that they are not. Secondly, is it true that the forestry commissioners are not exercising their powers effectively over such developments? Thirdly, how far will this go? Is it the intention that Forest Holidays will expand substantially, using cheap Forestry Commission land and taking over some of the national forestry estate for its purposes?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, as I said, I discussed this matter this morning with the chairman of the Forestry Commission. As he said, the reality is that only a limited number of sites are available within the public forest estate, principally because much of the land is either ancient woodland or SSSI or protected in some other way.

Lake District National Park Authority

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Thursday 5th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords, I absolutely agree with my noble friend. I can confirm that none of the protections afforded to the land by virtue of being in a national park is affected by a sale.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, there has not been a very satisfactory process here. The national park authority made the decision to sell these pieces of land in secret. People discovered it only when an advertisement appeared in the Westmoreland Gazette, giving them precisely one month to make bids. Surely there should be public debate about which of the 168 pieces of land owned by the national park authority should be sold if it has to sell any. Once it decides to put some forward, there should be consultation of a sufficient length of time to allow community groups—such as the Langdale Valley Association, which wants to register Stickle Tarn as a community asset—to be consulted. This takes time. Will the Minister have words with the national park authority to ask it to withdraw these proposals for the moment, to give time for public consultation and for the Langdale Valley Association to prepare its bid?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I know that my noble friend is intimately involved in these matters. I assure him that I have obtained confirmation from the Lake District National Park Authority that it recognises the legitimate interests of stakeholders. It has consulted and continues to consult widely in a number of ways ahead of any final decisions. That includes liaison with parish councils, public notices advertising its intention to invite offers for some of the properties, direct consultation with a number of neighbouring landowners and so on.

Dog Licensing

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, with effect from April 2016, it will be a legal requirement that every dog is microchipped and that its owner’s details will be maintained on a database. What is encouraging is that since the time we announced the consultation, when about 58% of dogs were microchipped, the figure has already risen to 70%.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that compulsory microchipping actually achieves the main purpose of dog licensing, which is to know who the owners are of all dogs? Does he also agree that nuisance from dogs, on the street in town centres or wherever, requires quite intensive action by local authorities, which they are increasingly unable to provide because of the draconian spending cuts that are being enforced on them?

[Lord De Mauley]

I agree with the first half of my noble friend’s contention. In terms of addressing the second half, that is why we introduced the measures that we did in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act, which we explained in a manual to authorities to make it easier for them to enforce action against irresponsible owners of dogs.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 28th October 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am sorry if I was not clear. With great respect to my noble friend, I ask her, once she has read what I said in Hansard, might we have a discussion after today? Perhaps that would be helpful.

[Lord Greaves]

I wonder if the gist of that discussion could be circulated to the rest of us. I am not wholly opposed to the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Byford; there is a lot of common sense in it. However, local agreement ought to be possible, and it would be very helpful for all of us to know what the facts are.

[Lord De Mauley]

If it is helpful to your Lordships, the point that I was trying to make was that the stakeholder working group agreed in principle but that there are also points of detail which we have not yet resolved.

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 9th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

That is a subject which I have been thinking about very carefully. It is quite interesting that the community protection notices under the new Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act are potentially useful in this regard and we have to look carefully at them, as is the community trigger, which we should also look into.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, on her persistence in this matter. It has been going on for as long as I have been in this House, which is probably too long now—or certainly too long for my own good, anyway. I would not, however, describe my noble friend as invasive or, to use the Royal Horticultural Society’s description of knotweed, as a real thug. Her question was: what progress is being made on getting rid of it? The answer is that there is none; it is getting more and more widespread. Is it not the case that the time has come when allowing this invasive, alien weed to grow on your land should be an offence?

[Lord De Mauley]

I should say to my noble friend that Aphalara itadori is not planned to eradicate knotweed but is part of a programme on how to manage it. We have got to a stage where it is here—and we should acknowledge that fact—but we should manage it. There are other tools that can be used in this matter. In fact, when my noble friend Lady Sharples asked the same Question last year, she referred to the use of an herbicide which can be effective. My noble friend Lord Greaves referred to more pressure on landlords. It would be disproportionate, and possibly unfair, to impose very strong conditions on landowners because, apart from anything else, this weed can arrive on their land through no fault of their own. However, farmers receiving the single farm payment are required to take reasonable steps to prevent its spread.

Peatlands

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to deliver their commitments made in the statement on peatlands by the Ministers from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Welsh Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Scottish Government on 5 February 2013, in particular those on peatland restoration, land management policies to protect peatlands, and the inclusion of peatland restoration in national greenhouse gas emissions reporting.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)]

My Lords, we are undertaking a number of actions supporting the restoration of peatlands, including working with the International Union for Conservation of Nature on the pilot peatland code, research to determine best practice in peatland restoration, and establishing three government-funded nature improvement areas. We are also investing more than £3 billion in a more targeted successor scheme to environmental stewardship, with the potential to include peatland restoration, and we are funding research on greenhouse gas emissions from lowland peat.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, that was quite a positive response. Is the Minister aware of the recent report by the Institute of Biological and Environmental Sciences at Aberdeen University, which found that building wind farms on undegraded peatland will not reduce net carbon emissions, and that they should not be built there? Many peatlands are in wild, remote, often upland areas, with large stocks of soil carbon. Developing them usually involves substantial excavation and draining of peat, which offsets the gains from wind power. Will the Government take these matters into account when considering their future energy strategy for the UK in conjunction with the devolved Administrations?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. Applicants for consent for major energy infrastructure projects must provide assessments of potential biodiversity and geological impacts, including the effects of locating infrastructure on peatland. The decision-making authority must take such impacts into account before making its decision. Much can be done, through project design, to minimise and mitigate impacts. However, if there is damage that cannot be avoided, it is for the planning authorities to judge whether the benefits of the wind farm development outweigh those impacts.

Agriculture: Common Agricultural Policy

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 30th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress is being made on greening the common agricultural policy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, agreement on common agricultural policy reform was reached in June at both the Agriculture Council and in the European Parliament. As part of the deal, from 2015, 30% of Pillar 1 farm subsidies will be dependent upon a series of greening practices being carried out on farms. We shall be working in the coming months to devise a greening policy for England. At the same time, we are making plans for the new rural development programme from 2015. I should declare an interest as a beneficiary under the current CAP.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, the progress made on the CAP is welcome, though not as radical as some people will allege. The increased requirements for environmental compliance by farmers who are getting the single payments are particularly welcome. The proposals for transferring more money from Pillar 1 to rural development, including environmental works, are also welcome. Will the Minister assure us that the Government will remain firm on these objectives and not give in to the short-sighted campaign by some people, including the NFU, to try to block these valuable changes?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, we have a legal obligation to implement what is known as greening from 2015. No decisions have yet been taken on implementation. We will consult stakeholders, including farmers’ representatives and NGOs. We need to achieve genuine environmental outcomes from greening, without impacting unnecessarily on farmers’ business activities.

Forestry: Independent Panel Report

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I agree with the noble Lord that that is a laudable objective. It is early days, but we are making progress on those things. If I may, I will take the noble Lord’s suggestion back to the department.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, before I answer that perhaps I should reiterate my thanks to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool and his independent panel for the work that they did for us on this.

We envisage that there will be a group of guardians who will draw on the interests and expertise of public forest users and will be able to advise and support the delivery of the new body’s remit. The guardians will be focused on the outcomes that the management body delivers, such as environmental biodiversity and social benefits, and any questions of significant land acquisitions and disposals.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords—

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I am grateful. Will the Minister, with me, step back a little, think about the situation two years ago and consider how different it is now? Two years ago we were talking about the Government wanting to flog off most of the forestry estate. How different it is now. The Minister has congratulated the right reverend Prelate and his independent panel. Will he also congratulate the ministerial team in Defra on the way that they responded to the views of people throughout the country, in particular to the fantastic campaigns that existed? Is it not a win-win situation all round, with my honourable friend David Heath, as the Agriculture Minister, absolutely at the forefront of it?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I could not have put it better myself.

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, on her persistence in this matter, which is vital, and I congratulate the Government on the continuation of the experiments with the psyllid Aphalara itadori. Is it not the case that under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 it is already an offence to plant or cause this species to grow in the wild? Is it not time that that was strengthened and that allowing this plant to grow on your land without taking steps to remove it became an offence?

[Lord De Mauley]

My noble friend is certainly right that it is an offence to allow it to be introduced into the wild but we think that that is a step too far. It is a real challenge to get it under control and we want to find an effective biocontrol before we consider a move such as that suggested by my noble friend.

Flooding: Insurance

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. In answer to the noble Lord’s first question, the ABI, in its letter to which we referred when we last debated this subject a month ago, has expressed confidence that we will be able to conclude this before the end of July, and I have every confidence in that. We need a solution that provides affordable insurance, as the noble Lord said, for those at risk, but that does not place unsustainable costs on wider policyholders or the taxpayer. Obtaining insurance might involve some householders shopping around or going through specialist brokers if flood risks are significant. In terms of help for householders, in July last year, we published a guide to obtaining flood insurance in high-risk areas in collaboration with the National Flood Forum and industry representatives.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I heard this morning a rustling in the undergrowth, and it was not oncoming water: it was a suggestion that an agreement has actually now been reached between the Association of British Insurers and Defra—the Government. I do not know whether the Minister is able to confirm that, because it has perhaps has not been signed, sealed and delivered yet, but the agreement is there. When that news arrives—perhaps tomorrow—will it be given by an Oral Statement? That would then allow the Opposition in this House to have the Statement taken here, which would be the normal procedure, but can happen only if it is an Oral Statement?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend is unique among your Lordships in that he seems to have both ears to the ground at the same time. As I said, we are at an advanced stage in discussions with the insurance industry about the future of flood insurance. We aim to announce future measures shortly to ensure that households can continue to access affordable flood insurance.

Insurance: Flood Risk Areas

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my heart, and I am sure the hearts of all noble Lords, goes out to those who have suffered from these events. It really is a horrible thing to happen. It has happened to me, so I sympathise with them. Our view is that action taken to reduce flood risk is the best way of keeping insurance available and affordable, which is why we are spending more than £2.3 billion over four years to tackle flooding and, indeed, coastal erosion risks. I have a lot of sympathy with what the noble Lord says.

[Lord Greaves]

It is very welcome that the ABI has agreed to extend by a month the operation of the statement of principles, but this has been going on now for a long time. It is at least a year since I first asked a Question about it, and Members of this House and of the Commons have been asking questions at almost weekly intervals ever since. We were told that the negotiations were “constructive”, then that they were “arduous and difficult”, then that they were “urgent”. Now we are told that they are “at an advanced stage”. Will the Minister explain to the House, in words of one syllable, just what the problem is?

[Lord De Mauley]

I am not sure about words of one syllable, my Lords. Negotiations, and I know that some noble Lords opposite are very experienced in them, are very complex things, and this is a particularly complicated subject. We are working on it. The letter from the ABI is a good demonstration that we are close to a solution.

Forestry

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to introduce legislation in this Parliament to establish the Public Forest Estate management body proposed in their response to the Independent Panel on Forestry’s Final Report.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, subject to parliamentary time, the Government will look to introduce legislation at the earliest opportunity in order to establish the new independent body to manage the public forest estate and hold it in trust for the nation. I declare an interest as a woodland owner.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I hope the whole House will join me when I thank the Government for the good sense in what they call their “refreshed” forestry policy, when I thank the Independent Panel on Forestry, under the excellent chairmanship of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool, and when I congratulate all those people who rallied some two years ago when they felt that their local forests and woods were under threat.

Does the Minister agree that, following the despair and fear there was at that time, there is now hope and expectation about the future of our public forest estate, to be held in trust for ever for the people of this country, and that there is a real enthusiasm for the Government getting on with their new, refreshed forestry policy, certainly during this Parliament?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords, we are committed to keeping the public forest in public hands, to maintaining and improving public access to our woodlands, and to increasing woodland cover very substantially over the next 50 years. Everyone has a role to play in managing our woodlands better, as well as in increasing woodland cover. Noble Lords will know that all Governments zealously guard the contents of the Queen’s Speech and these are not divulged in advance. What I will say is that the Government fully intend to do this, and to do it expeditiously.

Food: Waste

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Thursday 17th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the Institute of Mechanical Engineers report Global Food: Waste Not, Want Not.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, we are grateful for this contribution to the debate on food waste and agree that too much food is wasted. The waste review sets food waste as a priority, giving the Government’s commitment to tackle it by focusing on waste prevention. The Government are working through agreements with food retailers, manufacturers and the hospitality sector to reduce food waste, and we are helping households waste less and save money through the Waste and Resources Action Programme’s “Love Food, Hate Waste” campaign.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, this excellent report highlights the fact that around the world, somewhere between a third and a half of the food that is produced is not eaten. Is that not a shocking example of inefficiency within the capitalist free market system? Is it not time that the Government took the issue far more seriously by getting together with producers, distributors and retailers in this country so that we do not just hope that consumers will behave better, but actually do something about it?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend would not necessarily expect me to agree with every word he has said. Our key tool for diverting waste, particularly food waste, from landfill is the landfill tax. On top of that we have the “Love Food, Hate Waste” campaign aimed at households, the Courthauld commitment, and the Hospitality and Food Service Voluntary Agreement that is operating successfully with retailers, manufacturers and caterers. We have the AD Loan Fund, and WRAP provides evidence and advice on food waste. Under the waste review in which we have committed to move food waste up the hierarchy and away from landfill, with waste prevention a priority, we are exploring incentive arrangements and working with local authorities, businesses and others to make it easier for businesses and households to manage their food waste better.

Badgers

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, as always, I respect the noble Lord’s position. An independent panel of experts will oversee the monitoring and evaluation of the two pilots for the badger control policy to test our assumptions, as I said, about the effectiveness, humaneness and safety of controlled shooting. The expert panel will play an important role in overseeing the design of the data collection and their analysis, and in providing additional advice on interpretation of the data. It will be on the basis of both the pilots and the panel’s report that Ministers will take a decision on whether the granting of culling licences should be authorised in areas besides the pilot areas, and whether the badger control policy should continue to include controlled shooting as a culling method. On the noble Lord’s second point, we are constantly reviewing the options. As I said earlier, we are working hard on a vaccination, and there are a number of other measures in progress. In a general sense, we are doing as the noble Lord suggests.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, how much have this year’s aborted culls already cost the police in those two areas? What is the estimate for the cost to the police if the two culls go ahead in the summer and who is going to pay this money?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, to put things in context, we should bear in mind that in 2011-12 the total cost to the Government of controlling the disease in England will be about £90 million but that, without further action, the disease will cost the taxpayer approaching £1 billion over the next decade. In terms of the costs, a large proportion of which are borne by farmers, £750,000 was spent on surveying costs, which gave us the more accurate estimate of badger populations, £300,000 on Natural England’s costs and approximately £95,000 as part of humaneness monitoring.

Flooding: Insurance

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Thursday 29th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to make sure that house insurance is available for residents in areas that are liable to flooding.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, the future of flood insurance is a priority for the Government. We remain committed to discussions with the insurance industry and others about what replaces the statement of principles. We want a solution that ensures affordable insurance bills for those at flood risk but does not place unsustainable costs on wider policyholders and the taxpayer. Our primary focus is flood-risk management, on which we are spending more than £2.17 billion over four years.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, there are now at least 200,000 households in high-risk flood areas whose properties are virtually uninsurable against flood. The discussions with the insurance industry have been taking place for years. There are now only seven months before the existing statement of principles runs out, and that itself is less useful by the week. Do the Government support the practical proposal from the Association of British Insurers, on behalf of the insurance industry, for a non-profit-making flood insurance fund to provide insurance against flooding for properties in high-risk areas basically funded by cross-subsidies from the rest of us who are fortunate enough not to live in high-risk flood areas? If so, why are the negotiations on this matter being blocked by high-ranking Ministers in the coalition Government from another party?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, this is a serious matter. We have been working very hard with the industry on this extremely complex issue. We need a lasting solution that ensures affordable insurance bills for those at flood risk but does not place unsustainable costs on wider policyholders and the taxpayer. The ball is now in the industry’s court. The ABI understands the Government’s position. It is up to the ABI to come back to us with a practical and sustainable option that provides insurance for those that need it without increasing bills for all or placing unacceptable burdens on the taxpayer.

Flooding: Insurance

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, that is also an important point, which the Government are fully apprised of.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, the affordability of insurance depends partly on the flood risk. I commend the Government and the insurance industry for all the work that they are doing to find an internal solution within the industry to this, but it also depends on how much money the householder has and their resources. Last December, the excellent report published as the road map states:

“The Government will look at further ways to encourage take up of insurance by low-income households, including the potential of insurance-with-rent schemes for social housing”.

Are the Government taking this forward seriously, as it is one answer to the problem? Do the Government understand that the people really in difficulty when it comes to insurance are often those in privately rented accommodation? Can insurance-with-rent schemes be promoted within that sector?

[Lord De Mauley]

Once again, my Lords, yes is the answer to my noble friend.

Water Industry (Schemes for Adoption of Private Sewers) Regulations 2011

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats I, too, am very happy to support the regulations, which are long overdue and welcome. The Explanatory Memorandum suggests that up to 50 per cent of properties are connected to private sewers in one form or other—which is a very large number. Under the regulations, 220,000 kilometres of private lateral drains and sewers will become the responsibility of the water and sewerage companies. At a guess, that is five times the circumference of the earth. I do not know how far it is to the moon, but 220,000 kilometres is a long distance. Therefore, this is not a trivial measure; it is extremely important and welcome.

I share some of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, about the impact of the costs. It is clear that they will impact mainly on property owners whose drains and sewers are already the responsibility of the water and sewerage companies under the 1936 Act. I would like a reassurance that the regulations being discussed today will solve the problem once and for all and that the problem will not start again after the regulations lapse in 2018. This must be a permanent solution. Future regulations that apply to new developments through the other Act, which we discussed before the election, will sort this out. We should not need to come back in 30 years’ time to try and solve another 30 years’ worth of problems. I think I know the answer, but it would be helpful to have that reassurance on the record.

I am not sure—clearly I have missed something or perhaps I have not understood it—what the relationship is between the lapsing of the regulations at the end of June 2018 and the date of 2016 to which the Minister referred. Perhaps he will explain that. In particular, in the years between 2011 and 2016 or 2018, what is Government’s timetable for bringing in the schemes for each of the water and sewerage companies? Will they all come in at the same time or will they differ? How long will it take? Clearly, the quicker this can be done, the better.

The other questions I want to ask are complicated but crucial. How will the new schemes apply to local properties? I have before me a plan of some properties which it would be nice to distribute to Members of the Grand Committee, but I am not allowed to do that, so I shall have to try to explain it. I apologise to the Minister for not giving him advance notice of these questions, but I have only just received this submission from an interested party.

How will property boundaries be defined? If you buy a property which is served by an adopted highway and the lateral drain of what is at the moment a private sewer goes into the adopted highway, I presume that anything under the adopted highway will be assumed not to be within the property boundary, even though the deeds of that property may state that the property owner owns that part of the adopted highway. Because it is a highway maintainable at public expense, I assume that it would not be included. Therefore, if a private lateral drain goes straight out of a property on to a public highway and then joins the public sewer—the sewer that is already vested in the sewerage undertaker, say, along the middle of the road—the section of the lateral drain which is under the highway will now be vested in the water and sewerage company, whereas the section in the front garden will not. I assume that that is fairly straightforward.

What is the position if the public highway is unadopted? A section of it is likely to belong to the property from which the drain comes out. It may well have a sewer along it which is the responsibility of the sewerage undertaker. Will sewers under unadopted highways now be the responsibility of the undertaker? I assume that they will, because they will be in the same position as private sewers which serve more than one property. What is the position in relation to the lateral drain coming out of the property? Will it still be the responsibility of the property owner until it plumbs the sewer, which may go down the centre of the road?

I hope that what I am asking is clear. I think it is, but I am looking at a plan which makes it all very clear. This is a question about unadopted public highways—not their relationship to a sewer that serves more than one property, which will now be the responsibility of the undertaker—but what happens if it is a lateral drain serving only one house? I have been involved in these things at the local level in the past, and I am afraid that it lives with me. That is my basic question, because I think I understand how the rest of it will work at the local level. Having asked these technical questions, once again I would like to say that the regulations are extremely welcome in general. A lot of people around the country will be grateful that the Government are bringing them in.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Knight, and my noble friend Lord Greaves for taking part in this debate and for the warm welcome they have given these regulations. I acknowledge the work of the previous Government in getting us a long way down the track towards them. The principal issues raised were as follows. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, referred to the lengthy time spent in consultation before the regulations were produced, and no one can disagree with that. One can only hope that as a result, as my noble friend asked, the regulations will indeed be effective and stand the test of time.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, raised a question about the recovery of costs, how much they will be and who they will affect. Before he arrived for the debate, I had explained that the water and sewerage companies will obviously recover their costs through charges to customers for sewerage services. I indicated that it is estimated that transfer will add an average of £5 to £8 per annum to water bills up to 2018, in a range from £3 to £14. While increases in charges are never welcome, they will be up to or a little over £1 a month. Those are relatively modest annual increases, which is to be preferred to a system in which the costs fall unequally across water charge payers or unfairly on individuals. Overall, they represent a sound investment in the future maintenance of essential assets.

The transfer exercise does not itself trigger major expenditure on those parts of the system that are working satisfactorily, and it is for the water and sewerage companies to assess and prioritise what is essential short-term maintenance, repair or replacement. I understand that everyone will pay within the range of £3 to £14, and that there is no difference between business and domestic customers.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, raised the issue of the south-west, which is of course particularly important. We are looking at the somewhat complex issues around affordability in the region. The particular issues regarding private sewers have not affected our thinking in this respect, and the Government are committed to supporting households facing water affordability pressures. On 5 April, we published our consultation on water affordability, including recommendations in relation to the south-west region. It invites views on options to reduce the bills of all household customers of South West Water as well as options for providing additional assistance to low-income households. As pledged in the Budget, additional assistance will be provided through public expenditure and our proposals will be set out in the water White Paper due in the autumn. The noble Lord asked about Crown leasehold land and transfer there. Leasehold arrangements in respect of Crown land will not result in exclusion from transfer.

My noble friend Lord Greaves made some important points. I certainly agree with him that this is not by any means a trivial matter. He asked whether the regulations will solve the problem once and for all. We believe them to be a permanent solution; that is the basis on which we are going into this. He also asked about conflicting dates and was quite right to do so. The correct date is 2018.

My noble friend also asked a couple of questions about boundaries. Guidance on the regulations is being prepared and is expected to be published during the summer, in time for transfer on 1 October. I take to heart his comments, which will be considered in the preparation of that guidance. It is intended that property boundaries should be at the junction with the street—the back edge of the pavement. I can also tell him that sewers under unadopted roads will be transferred.

Where points have been raised in the debate to which I have not responded, I will of course write to noble Lords. To conclude, the transfer is intended to put right the anomaly that, subsequent to the Public Health Act 1936, even where adoption agreements were reached, the adoption process was not concluded. Transfer will relieve individuals of the burden and expense of maintaining private sewers where access and cost recovery can be difficult. It will achieve a better integrated and more consistently managed sewerage system that is more resilient and better able to adapt to future challenges—for example, climate change.

With regard to costs, the relatively modest annual increases that are estimated to arise from the transfer, fairly shared among water charge payers, are, as I have said, a sound investment in the maintenance of vital assets. Transfer will remove the unfair cost subsidy whereby pre-1937 drains are maintained by statutory sewerage undertakers while the owners of post-1937 drains are obliged to contribute to this upkeep through sewerage charges but, in addition, are responsible for the upkeep of their own private sewers. It will place those with post-1937 sewers on a similar footing to those with pre-1937 sewers.

The regulations will provide the reassurance that companies will work to minimum standards of service and costs, regulated by Ofwat. Parliamentary approval of these transfer regulations will mean that transfer can go ahead as planned on 1 October. I beg to move.