Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Goodman of Wycombe and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I am grateful to all noble Lords for staying the course to debate this group. I am not going to use any footballing metaphors, because I think we have exhausted them during the Committee and clearly this is the final group. I want to stress that I am really happy to continue to meet noble Lords before Report to make sure that we can talk through concerns that they have raised ahead of the next stage in the progress of the legislation through your Lordships’ House.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Goodman of Wycombe, for tabling these amendments, which have allowed a debate about what kind of scrutiny we might need for a new regulator of this type. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, for waiting so late to contribute, particularly given his complete lack of interest in football. There is a real value in hearing from people who are interested in regulation and what makes good legislation when we look at something where there is a risk that noble Lords—or anyone looking at the legislation—might approach it from the perspective of themselves as a fan, rather than what we need to have, which is good legislation, a good regulator and effective regulation.

I am also grateful to my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton for her contribution. Her expertise has been recognised by other noble Lords as well. I am keen to reflect on these contributions and the points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Addington, ahead of Report. I will take the points about scrutiny and accountability away for further consideration. I will go through a number of points—unfortunately, I am going to keep noble Lords a little longer—but I want to reflect properly on the points that have been raised.

Going back to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, unfortunately, while we completely agree that the efficacy of the regulator should be monitored and evaluated—and I am happy to discuss this point further with the noble Lord—I cannot stress enough how strongly we disagree with the use of a sunset clause in this context. I agree with my noble friend Lady Taylor that these amendments would create a perverse incentive for the regulated industry to deliberately act in bad faith from the outset in the hope that the regulator fails to achieve its objectives and is therefore scrapped. We do not want, through the design of the legislation, to encourage or risk encouraging any non-compliance or vexatious behaviour by clubs and competition organisers who might be setting out with the intention of frustrating the regulator. We want to create the right conditions so that clubs act in a sustainable way, and we feel that the approach adopted is the right one.

On the other points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, surely, we want a regime that creates incentives for clubs to comply and improve sustainability. Under the amendment, the panel would make the decision, but there would still be an incentive for industry to show that the regime is not working. I also had concerns about the noble Lord saying that this would not be a problem because the Secretary of State would appoint the panel. If the Secretary of State can appoint a panel, knowing that it is not going to act against what the Secretary of State might have already decided, that is not a good panel. Therefore, with respect, I cannot agree with the noble Lord’s comments.

Giving the regulator a deadline of five years would also create the incentive for it to become more interventionist. Knowing it will be judged on whether it was meeting its objectives within a fixed period, the regulator could feel compelled to pursue more severe short-term solutions; this would be an undesirable unintended consequence. In addition to introducing these perverse incentives on both sides, a sunset clause would create inherent uncertainty in the market, as default expiry of the legislation in five years’ time, unless regulations are made to the contrary, would leave the industry and investors unclear on what basis they should plan for the future. We do not want to leave the Government or Parliament open to persistent lobbying to trigger the sunset clause.

The noble Lord, Lord Goodman, raised the important issue of accountability. This is already built in through the “state of the game” report and the annual report. However, I do recognise the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Markham, that these are produced by the regulator, albeit that the “state of the game” report will be based on data from the industry. While I understand the noble Lord’s concerns, the Government believe that the current measures already ensure sufficient scrutiny of the regulator and that it can be held to account if necessary—for example, through the DCMS’s role as sponsor and the requirement for an annual report to be laid before Parliament.

Parliament’s Select Committees can also conduct inquiries into any aspect of the work of the regulator once it is established and take evidence on such matters. The Government believe, given the aforementioned risks associated with the sunset clause, that it would not be an effective way to ensure accountability. For the reasons I have set out, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have spoken in this appropriately sober debate, especially to my noble—and non-footballing—friend Lord Norton for coming in and sharing his expertise with us. I suppose it is scarcely surprising that those noble Lords who are sceptical of state regulation favour the sunset clause, and those who are supportive of it are not. The Minister did not fully answer the argument I put to her. I find it hard to see why a panel appointed by her, which could be trusted to be fair-minded rather than biased one way or the other, would deliberately frustrate the regulator if that panel of experts thought the regulator was right. But these are matters to which we may be able to return on Report.

In the interim, I will simply make two points. First, it is very encouraging to see that there is agreement throughout the Committee that there needs to be more effective post-legislative scrutiny. This point was made briefly but very forcefully by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. My challenge to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, is this: if noble Lords do not like the sunset clause as a means of post-legislative scrutiny, let us come up with something else specific, rather than simply issue the general wish that things can somehow be made better.

Finally, a noble Lord said, “Fans want this”. Once again, I say that something like 33 million people watch football. Some of them will be unaware that this is coming down the tracks. I predict that many fans will find themselves in the position of the noble Lord, Lord Birt. I suspect that he has sat through more of this Committee than I have—and I have sat through a great deal of it—very quietly assessing what is going on. He is pro the principle of independent regulation, as licensed by the state, whereas I and many of my noble friends are either sceptical or opposed. But he has recognised, as we have dug more deeply into the weeds of this matter, that it is problematic.

I am sure we will return to these problems on Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Goodman of Wycombe and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

My Lords, it is relatively late in the evening and we have debated a lot of clauses and amendments, but I agree with my noble friend Lord Maude that this debate is at the heart of the Bill, at least as far as the Premier League, the Football League and the clubs themselves are concerned, I suspect. What will really get them going in relation to the Bill is not, for better or worse, net zero, diversity or any of those things but the money; it is what happens to the money and the success or failure of their clubs.

When the Minister responds, she will make the best case she can for what is in the Bill—for the backstop—and I understand that. However, when we finish Committee and go on to Report, and when eventually the Bill passes, the debate will not be over; it is just beginning. Once the Bill is passed, as I assume it will be, my noble friend Lady Brady will continue to make her case broadly for the present arrangements and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, will be back to make his case for what my noble friend Lord Markham called the front-stop, while the Government will defend the backstop—and so the debate will go on.

One of the lobby groups that has an interest in the Bill said of it that the debate is over. I found that a remarkable statement, given that this House presumably has a duty to scrutinise legislation and the Bill has not even been down to the other place yet. My point at this stage is that the debate is not over. It will not be over in Committee, on Report or after Third Reading; it will just be beginning. I ask noble Lords to bear this in mind when we come back, later in Committee, to consider clauses that seek to review the Bill as a whole.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I thank my noble friends Lady Taylor of Bolton and Lord Bassam of Brighton for their amendments on this important topic. I thank my noble friend for outlining why distributions are so important to the football pyramid. I will aim to take the amendments in a sensible order, with logical grouping where possible. In appreciating comments on the size of the group, I note that there is a logic to this, as outlined by my noble friend, and I say to the noble Lord, Lord Markham, that I do not think we have skimped on debate during Committee—though I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, both that the hour is getting late and that it does not feel like the debate has finished or will finish any time soon.

I acknowledge the probing intent of the amendments and it is really helpful to have this debate. I know that subsequent groups will go into this a bit more as well. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, that it is important that we do our absolute best to work through the issues that noble Lords have raised and to get the regulator right, which was the point that he made.

I reassure my noble friends that we agree on the importance of regulatory intervention on distributions— I appreciate that not all noble Lords have exactly the same view of this. Amendments 260, 269, 270, 293, 295 and 288 would broaden the powers that the regulator has to intervene by allowing it to trigger the back- stop process. I understand the intention behind the amendments, but we must maintain the backstop process as a last resort, to be triggered by the leagues only if they cannot come to an agreement themselves.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Goodman of Wycombe and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Monday 2nd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I will address the issue of why the regulatory regime is currently intended to be limited to the top five tiers of football and not to include the National League North and the National League South. The issues we are concerned with arise most typically and markedly in the professional game where the financialisation of clubs is greatest. We recognise that the top five tiers is not necessarily a perfect proxy for the professional game, since some semi-professional and professional clubs can move between these leagues. However, we consider it the most appropriate and proportionate place to draw the line and the place where it would not result in some clubs in the league being subject to regulation and others not. We do not currently believe that extending the scope beyond the top five tiers would be proportionate to the burden on smaller clubs below the National League.

On Amendment 19—and apologies if I am repeating parts of my speech, because it is some time ago that I was actually on my script—in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, I understand his desire to have upfront clarity on the face of the Bill.

Turning to Amendment 21, I thank my noble friend Lady Taylor for putting forward this amendment. As I am sure my noble friend is aware, the Secretary of State would have the ability to specify competitions that are in scope of the regulator and we believe that the top five tiers is a sensible and proportionate place to draw the line.

In relation to the points on hybridity, questions of hybridity are for the examiners, not for the Government. If the amendment is made, there will be a process to be followed that will decide whether the Bill is hybrid and needs to go through the hybrid procedures. Initial advice is that the Bill would be thought to be hybrid and I understand that, following the tabling of Amendment 19 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, and Amendment 21 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor, issues have been raised about their hybridity.

The noble Lord, Lord Goodman, asked whether we had discussed with the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee ahead of the process. We would not discuss committee reports with clerks before they draw them up.

I know that noble Lords want to continue to work constructively on the Bill—

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

I think my question was, in advance of the committee considering the Bill and the Government giving their reasons to the clerks for objecting to the Bill, why did they not then raise the matter of hybridity? Is it the Government’s position that raising the matter of hybridity just is not their business? If it is their business, why did they not raise it?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

It is for the examiners, not the Government, to decide whether or not there is hybridity.