Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Lord Goldsmith Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Lords Chamber

Sad though I am that this crime may disappear, I cannot argue against the substantive arguments that have been raised. I shall be surprised if the Government can produce any against, and although I have teased the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, somewhat, he has made out a substantial case and I hope that the Government will react positively.

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, the Minister may have something to say in support of this offence and I look forward to hearing it. Subject to that, the case made by the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Bew, is unanswerable.

However, I wish to make one or two comments about it. I know all the individuals who were referred to in the almost prosecution by the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland, Mr John Larkin, including the would-be defendant. I am sure that the decision to proceed was taken in good faith—they are all people of good faith—but it is the first time that I recall the potential use of that offence. I was the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland for six years and I was never asked to, nor did I, consider that offence in Northern Ireland—or, indeed, in England and Wales, of which I was also Attorney-General. There does not seem to be any need for the offence and I never saw any need for it at the time. It will be also interesting to know whether the Minister has anything particular to say in relation to Northern Ireland and to what the noble Lord, Lord Bew, had to say. I see also sitting in his place today a former Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland.

In supporting the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and subject to what the Minister has to say, I wish to draw attention to one point and to sound a note of caution. The noble Lord, in the course of his observations, asked why we should protect judges as we do not protect other public officials. However, I am concerned about allowing too much freedom in relation to attacks on judges. I do not mean that we should protect them through the criminal law—that is not appropriate—but I believe that a degree of self-restraint is important in retaining public confidence. Indeed, it is not members of the public or even former politicians who often pose the greatest risk. From time to time when I was in office I had to have conversations, as did other legal officers, with members of our own Government about their observations on cases they had lost; they rarely made them about cases that they had won.

Expressing that reservation, and making it clear that I do not believe that the criminal law is necessary to protect judges in those circumstances, I hope that if the amendment is agreed it will not be taken as invitation to a free-for-all in relation to criticism of judges— there is a proper place for that. However, there is a need for self-restraint so that the independence of the judiciary is maintained; so that judges do not have to be involved in slanging matches when responding to accusations made against them; and so that confidence in the judicial system is maintained.

[Lord Carswell]

My Lords, as your Lordships are aware, I was for some 20 years a judge in Northern Ireland. In that capacity, I had the function on many occasions of conducting criminal trials without a jury of very serious terrorist offences. It was a very responsible and difficult job and, in that capacity, I was scandalised more than once. I do not know whether that is a declaration of interest, but it certainly explains what I am about to say to your Lordships.

I did not consider for a moment instigating a prosecution or suggesting to the Attorney-General—who was not the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, but a predecessor—that a prosecution should be bought. There were deeply scandalous assertions in a certain newspaper that I had come to the conclusions I had reached in criminal trials on the instructions of the Government, more or less, without saying it, as their cat’s paw. I was deeply offended and I deeply resented it. I was scandalised, but not for one moment would I have considered asking the Attorney-General whether he would consider bringing contempt proceedings—or, rather, a scandalising prosecution.

My reason is very simple: judges have to be able to take these things. There may be a point beyond which they should not have to lie down and put up with the slings and arrows, but there are other ways of dealing with it than this offence. That is the reason it has fallen into desuetude: it is not necessary in modern conditions; not necessary for a sophisticated society; and not necessary for judges who have to have the hardihood to put up with comments which sometimes may be unfair, badly based and just plain vulgar rudeness. However, that is part of what they have to do: they have to shrug their shoulders and get on with it. It is for that reason that, although I was very cross at the time about it, I certainly did not invoke the criminal law. I support the amendment.

Crown Prosecution Service

Lord Goldsmith Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord that we are going down a route from which we cannot back-track. We are monitoring everything we do. However, there are of course offences where it is best to go through fixed-penalty processes, and that reduces the queue of serious cases to be heard at trial in court.

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that what she said about charging creates some disquiet? The present position in relation to charging approved by this House and the whole of Parliament, under which the Crown Prosecution Service makes the decisions, was recommended by an independent criminal judge—one of our most senior—and was followed by pilots, which demonstrated its efficiency and effectiveness? Is she also aware that there will be some concern, particularly in the light of anxieties already expressed in this House about the potential politicisation of the police, if independent prosecuting decisions are not still taken by the prosecutors? Can she assure us that what she has told us about the present system is not just the thin end of the wedge?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is also aware that the greater powers that the police have to charge came about under the previous Administration. We are just following through and building on that programme. The noble and learned Lord will also be aware that the CPS will keep control over serious offences but it will also have an overview of every single case that goes through the legal system.