Single Use Carrier Bags Charges (England) (Amendment) Order 2021.

Debate between Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park and Baroness Henig

Monday 19th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]]

I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate today. In order for us to leave the environment in a better state than we found it for the next generation, it is essential that we have the right legislation in place to limit the impact that our use of resources has on the natural world. Plastics are causing incontrovertible harm to our marine and terrestrial environments and we need to act now. These measures are an important part of our wider strategy to tackle plastic pollution and serve as an important marker that our reliance on single-use plastics must be reduced.

I will do my best in the time that I have to answer the questions put to me by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked, effectively, “Why not simply ban single-use plastics?”, a point echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley. Like both noble Lords, I wish to see an end to plastic waste, full stop. Clearly this statutory instrument alone is not going to achieve that, but it is just one part of a much larger of package of measures. For example, in October 2020 we introduced restrictions on the supply of plastic straws, plastic stirrers and plastic cotton buds. In 2018 we banned microbeads in rinse-off personal care products, a world first at the time. We are seeking powers in the Environment Bill to charge for single-use plastic items, introduce a deposit-return scheme for drinks containers and reform the packaging waste regulations. The Environment Bill will also provide powers to introduce extended producer responsibility measures to make producers bear the full cost of the environmental impacts of their products. We are also taking action to boost the quantity and quality of recycling—a consistent set of materials will need to be collected from all households and businesses in England—and to ensure clearer labelling on packaging so that we know what it is that we can recycle. We are ready to do much more if and where necessary.

My noble friend Lord Robathan initially expressed a concern about the principle and the idea of banning things. When it comes to individual responsibility, I would instinctively agree with him, but he would probably agree with the point that I am about to make: the use and disposal of single-use plastic imposes a heavy cost on all of us and indeed on the world that we share. This happens against our will, in most cases. It is an area that needs, merits and justifies intervention.

My noble friend stressed the importance of education and suggested that every single school should spend time litter picking. That is a suggestion that I fully agree with. I will convey his message to the Department for Education, and if need be I will involve him in those discussions. It is very hard to disagree with him. Young people are very much instinctively onside. I have never spoken at a school where I have not been asked questions about pollution, particularly plastic waste, so there is no doubt a market there waiting to be tapped.

Education and awareness are already a key element in the litter strategy for England. Around 70% of schools in England, for example, are already members of the Eco-Schools programme, which is run by Keep Britain Tidy. Schools can also participate in challenges such as the Keep Britain Tidy Great Big School Clean, the Marine Conservation Society’s Great British Beach Clean and the Canal & River Trust’s Plastics Challenge, joining other community-minded individuals to tackle litter all over the country.

The noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley, made the important point that in reducing plastic waste we are saving an enormous amount of money at many different levels. He has made the specific suggestion that the £730 million raised through this charge should be reinvested—recycled, if you like—into the waste and plastic agenda. That is a valuable suggestion and one that I will take back to the department. The only thing that I will say from a personal point of view is that I think the remit should be relatively broad, focusing broadly on the environment as a whole, given that the effects of plastic pollution are predominantly environmental.

For a second time in a week, the noble Lord has stressed the positive interactions that he has had with schoolchildren on this issue. My very first school visit to Parliament as an MP shortly after I was elected in 2010 was with a bunch of children from Barnes Primary who were accompanied by a giant papier-mâché whale, which they wanted to take to No. 10. It would not fit through the door, so we had to go to Parliament Square. This whale was made by the children as a direct response to the sad death of the whale that had been seen—I am not sure that it was swimming past Parliament, but certainly it got caught in the River Thames. When it was dissected shortly afterwards, its belly was found to be full of plastic waste and, in particular, plastic bags. That was rightly very shocking for the children, so they wanted to engage in a protest.

The noble Lord asked about gasification. I am unable to give a proper, authoritative answer, I am afraid, because I am not qualified to do so, but I shall get back to him and will ask my officials to help me to respond in detail to him. I know he will agree that the key is to stop producing products designed only to be used for seconds or perhaps minutes which then take centuries to be disposed of.

The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, talked about the balance between deterrence and raising funds for good causes. He questioned whether raising the charge to 10p would have much of an impact. The evidence that we have suggests that it would, but he is right that alone that additional charge is not enough. I hope that I have provided reassurance in answers to other noble Lords that this is just part of an overall strategy. He suggested that we should ban further single-use items; he knows that we have banned plastic stirrers, straws and cotton buds, but I wholeheartedly agree with him that we should look for opportunities to go further.

That point was also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mann, whose passion for this subject I very much share and enjoy. He made the point that, on the whole, people neither need nor want much of the plastic packaging or throwaway items that we are given—and he is right. Most people, when they go to a shop to buy a spring of parsley, do not particularly welcome the brick of plastic that encases it, which is why the emphasis in our approach to tackling plastic is very much to move away from consumer to producer responsibility.

The noble Lord is also absolutely right that we should be leading by example here in this place. It is appalling that we are still offered plastic cutlery and wrappers in this House; it is lazy and irresponsible, and it is completely unforgiveable. We should be leading by example, and I am certainly not going to pretend that I disagree with him on that point. On the resource and waste strategy, we committed to removing single-use plastic from the central government estate, including the Palace of Westminster, and the results of that exercise will be incorporated into the greening government commitments from 2020 onwards. As part of that, every department’s progress will be published annually in the annual report. Some departments are reporting early success, but we do not yet have all the published statistics. I certainly hope to see good results and, if not, I shall certainly use my office—and I know that my colleagues in Defra will do the same—to press for real and meaningful results. Much of this waste is inexcusable.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, asked about the coming-into-force date, which we described on being the day after the day on which it is made, rather than having a specific date. We were concerned that the packed parliamentary timetable as a result of Covid-19 and EU exit could result in delays to debates and Parliament proroguing before the instrument had been debated. To avoid the instrument being withdrawn and relaid in the next session, we decided to specify the coming-into-force date as simply the day after the day when it is made. However, I stress that in August last year the government response to the consultation made it very clear that the extension and increase of the charge would enter into force in April 2021. The announcement was widely publicised in all the national press, broadcast and media, and Defra considers it reasonable to assume that businesses are aware of the Government’s intention that these changes would come into force in April. Indeed, I believe that we secured a number of front-page news stories on this issue.

The noble Baroness also mentioned paper bags, describing them as not a particularly good alternative. I shall slightly distort her question here, if I may, in order to wedge in an important point. If we judge an item only on the basis of its carbon impacts, we can end up with a perverse answer. Yes, paper bags need to be reused three or four times to have the same carbon impact as single-use plastic bags. But it is wrong to look just at the carbon impact. Plastic bags take centuries to decompose. They are routinely mistaken for food, and choke hundreds of thousands of animals, particularly marine animals. They cause terrible littering and blight, and even when they break down, on the whole they become micro-plastics, which then enter the food chain and poison everything in it, including us. So simply taking a narrow carbon approach is misleading and wrong.

Finally, the noble Baroness asked what we are doing to prepare customers. Again, we believe that the change we are introducing is pretty widely known—but maybe the odd customer will turn up at a shop unaware of it. We have to be realistic about that; it is unavoidable. Some customers will go to a shop without being fully prepared. But it is unlikely that they will make the same mistake twice, or three or four times. The choice is there: bags will be there, available for purchase. But ultimately, we are talking about behaviour change. That does not normally happen overnight, and we need permanent reminders that we are, we hope, moving on a path towards minimising our impact on earth—on the planet—and reducing our environmental footprint.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, asked several pertinent questions. I shall focus, if she does not mind, on the issue of franchises—the subject of her main question. She asked why we are exempting shops that are part of a franchise. All franchises, regardless of total and individual size, will be required to charge for single-use carrier bags. That we know. The noble Baroness’s interpretation of reporting obligations is correct, as franchises will be judged on individual size and not on that of the franchise group as a whole. We made that decision because we recognise that such businesses usually operate independently, so do not benefit from the economies of scale available to large businesses. However, retailers with a chain of shops will be counted as a large retailer if they have more than 250 employees. We are currently exploring options to introduce reporting for producers of plastic packaging as part of their obligation under the Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) Regulations 2007. Any bags used by individual franchises will be reported on through that mechanism, which will, I hope, avoid unnecessary burdens.

Incidentally, the noble Baroness was right to say that many smaller retailers did not initially want or welcome the exemption included when this initiative first came in a few years ago. As someone who, as part of the coalition Government, campaigned hard for this change, I made that point many times during the debate. I too see this as a sort of catching up, or the correction of an initial flaw.

The noble Baroness asked, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, whether the Government had plans to introduce reporting on bags for life. We are reviewing the reporting for single-use carrier bags, and we will consider extending the reporting requirements to bags for life as part of that.

Finally, the noble Baroness asked what further steps the Government were taking to get other problematic plastic off our shelves. In addition to the measures that she mentioned, we are delivering on promises from the resource and waste strategy through seeking powers in the Environment Bill to do a whole range of things, including: charging for single-use plastic items; introducing, as I said earlier, a deposit return scheme; reforming the packaging waste regulations; introducing greater consistency in household and business recycling collections; and more besides. We are currently assessing whether there are additional items for which a ban would be suitable and proportionate, and I would welcome ideas from her and her colleagues—and, indeed, from anyone else who has taken part in the debate—as we undergo that process.

That brings me to the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I thank her for prior notice of her questions, and for her and her party’s support for this measure. First, she too asked what the Government were doing about bags for life. I have addressed part of her question already, but I should add that bags for life are designed for multiple reuses; that is the whole point of them. Customers should therefore be encouraged to reuse them. If they are reused sufficiently, they have a lighter environmental impact than single-use bags. Clearly, if they are used only once, they do not. There will be an increase in the number of bags for life—we know that—but the policy change will lead to an overall reduction of at least 24% in the number of bags across all types. However, I agree with the noble Baroness that bags for life are not a proper long-term solution. They are not. The more progressive and thoughtful supermarkets are already planning their switch away from all plastic bags; a number of noble Lords have mentioned Morrisons.

The noble Baroness asked whether we will hike the price of bags for life, as did a number of noble Lords. We are considering that as part of the post-implementation review. The noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Khan, suggested that money should be recycled back into plastic and waste-related causes. Again, I will convey that message, but I would prefer money to be recycled into a wider remit, something environmental and local as far as possible.

Secondly, the noble Baroness asked how the UK will encourage manufacturers to take responsibility for plastic bags. We are committed to introducing a new, world-leading tax which will apply to businesses producing or importing plastic packaging which does not meet a minimum threshold of at least 30% recycled content from April 2022. Combined with our reform to the packing producer responsibility system which will apply to all packing, including single-use plastic bags, it will change economic incentives by encouraging more use of recycled plastic and drive up recycling rates. We are doing what we need to do to shift the emphasis away from consumers to producer responsibility.

Finally, the noble Baroness asked why all plastic bags—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

I am sorry; we are running out of time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

I apologise. I think I have answered the questions that were put to me and any more is merely an indulgence, so I will simply say that we are taking steps to reduce our reliance on single-use plastics and to explore more sustainable alternatives. This draft order will help us to do so, and I commend it to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

That completes the business before the Grand Committee this afternoon. I remind Members to sanitise their desks and chairs before leaving the Room.