Medical Innovation Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Giddens and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Friday 12th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Giddens (Lab)]

I support Amendments 1 and 6 —the latter because I speak as someone who has spent much of his life studying innovation. I recognise that the backdrop to this Bill is the massive acceleration of innovation in some core areas of medicine, so the point is to try to bridge the gap between that and the time taken to test medicines. However, I will comment especially on Amendment 1, even though I cannot hope to match the rhetorical power of my noble friend Lord Winston.

I have stressed several times in the debate the crucial importance of looking for possible unintended or even perverse consequences that the Bill could have. Amendment 1 is very worth while for this reason. It would certainly be a perverse outcome of the Bill if it had the effect of inhibiting or slowing down emergency measures where they need to be taken, and I hope therefore that the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, might be prepared to accept both the amendments, which seem to me to add strength to the Bill.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, as far as Amendment 1 is concerned, I think that the later amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Saatchi has the same effect. Amendment 1 is very clear on the matter, and I think that it has been the law that emergency treatments are dealt with in a way that is suitable for the emergency. Accordingly, something of this sort in the Bill is an improvement.

I find Amendment 6 more difficult. As I said in Committee, “innovation” is an ordinary word in the English language, so to try to list all possible innovations seems to suggest a foreknowledge of what innovations may be introduced in the future. It requires unnecessary precision. As I said, “innovation” is a reasonably simple word and it is easy for a practitioner to carry it in their head. I venture to think that Amendment 6 would be somewhat more difficult to carry in your head. I have read it, of course, but I would find it quite difficult to repeat it now without reading it, so I will not attempt that test.

On the later amendments, it seems to me that emergency medicine is certainly not intended to be dealt with by the Bill. It is obviously intended to deal with a deliberate decision to administer a treatment into which has gone a degree of consultation and prior thought. I am therefore entirely of the view that innovation ought not to be covered by it. In so far as my noble friend Lord Saatchi’s amendment does not do that already, Amendment 1 is very acceptable so far as I am concerned.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Giddens and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, your Lordships will not be surprised that I am extremely concerned about this Bill, its implications and the time at which it has reached your Lordships’ House.

As I understand the Bill, it does nothing more than confer on the electorate of this country the right to an “in or out” referendum on our membership of the European Union—nothing more and nothing less. Further action is required from the Government and both Houses of Parliament before a referendum can take place under the Bill. It is clear from the present situation that no referendum is likely to take place before the next general election, the date of which we know—or at least at the moment we know—because of the excellent system of fixed Parliaments that has now been put in place.

It is clear that action by the incoming Government will certainly be required. I have reached the conclusion that any incoming Government holding a referendum during their term of office will wish to be in charge of all the details of that referendum and will put them in place through a public general statute. This will be put in place by the Government and run by the Government, with both Houses of Parliament—I hope more or less in their present forms—having a full opportunity to consider the details.

I am not a prophet—I do not know how many of us are—and I do not know exactly what the conditions will be in 2016-17. For all I know, the eurozone may be a distinct body from the European Union and a change of name may occur—as, for example, happened in connection with Maastricht when the name changed from the European Economic Community to the European Union. So the question will have to be decided ultimately in the light of the circumstances prevailing at the time of the referendum. That is absolutely essential.

[Lord Giddens]

Would not that also apply to the date of the referendum? Should not that be decided in the light of what is happening in the European Union at a particular point because it is becoming so transformed?

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Exactly. Every part of this Bill can be altered by general legislation after the general election, including the date. However, the need for the date now is to give an entitlement to a referendum. If you do not put in a date, it will be in never-never land so it has to have a date now, but that date, like every other detail in this Bill, is subject to alteration.

Therefore, the extent to which we need to trouble about the detail is a substantial question. We do not know the circumstances of the referendum—at least I do not know—and therefore it will need to be adjusted in the light of the circumstances at the time. That will have to happen through a Bill authorised, put forward and promoted by the Government of the day. This Bill is not promoted by the Government of the day but by, essentially, the Member of the House of Commons who put it forward. He is a member of the Conservative Party and I know that the Bill is substantially supported by a good number of its members, but not all.

I am a strong believer in the European Union and our membership of it and have been for many years. I survived in government during the Maastricht debate, which would have been an experience for anyone, and there were demands then for a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. I have always found referenda difficult, but it is particularly difficult to have a referendum on a treaty because the chance that those people who vote have even read it—indeed, this may sometimes even apply to the legislators—is rather small. A referendum on a treaty is therefore difficult. At one time it was proposed to hold a referendum on the constitution of the EU, but that was equally difficult.

However, the question of whether, either now or in the future, you should be in or out is relatively simple. Just as it is in the Scottish referendum, it is a suitable question for a referendum. What this Bill does is give the British electorate the entitlement to have a referendum. As I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, the date has to be put in, as otherwise there is no enforceable entitlement, but the actual date for the referendum needs to be fixed by Government action along with action by both Houses of Parliament.

I am anxious about this because of what has been said by the Constitution Committee. I shall read out what the committee said because it is important:

“Three further private members’ Fridays are scheduled in the House of Commons this session: on Fridays 17 January, 24 January and 28 February 2014. So if the Lords were to pass any amendments to the bill, in order for it to become law in this session it would have to return to the Commons in time for the Lords amendments to be considered on Friday 28 February 2014. The requirement in the House of Lords for minimum intervals between stages of a bill may make it unlikely that the bill would finish the Lords in time for any amendments passed by the Lords to be considered by the Commons on Friday 28 February 2014”.

I would like to know what the proposers of this amendment have to say in relation to that.

The danger I see is that by exercising our undoubted responsibility for scrutiny, and given that scrutiny is supposed to improve a Bill, we will improve it in such a way as to kill it. This troubles me a great deal, not so much from the point of this House and its position in relation to the Commons, but I consider it to be important in terms of the position of the country in relation to the European Union.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Giddens]

Is not the inference from what the noble and learned Lord says that anything could be in the Bill and it would not matter as long as it goes through? That, surely, is an absurd position. It is up to us in the House of Lords to make sure that the Bill is sensible and well reasoned and, especially, that the question asked is fair and impartial. That is absolutely central to any referendum, as any country anywhere around the world with experience of this shows. The question has to be clear, fair and impartial and it has to be the core of what determines the future of the country. It does not make any sense to say that it does not matter and we will come back to it later.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I do not say that the question does not matter—not at all. I perfectly understand that the question at the time the referendum is taken has to be fair, excellent and take full account of the circumstances. In response to the second question asked by the noble Baroness, there is quite a lot of work to be done, but I know of no way other than this Bill that gives an assurance to the British people, going into the next election, that they will have an “in or out” referendum.