Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Garnier and Lord Johnson of Lainston

Committee stage
Thursday 20th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am just coming on to that. The noble Baroness, Lady Blake, is right to ask for there to be a running total, because a further 717 overseas entities have complied in the recent period since my own figures were updated—so it would be quite useful to see how that is going. I would also like to separate the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, about the ability to keep some information private from the presumption of this Bill, which is the presumption for privacy for trusts rather than it being the exception.

This matter was well debated in the other place during the passage of the Bill—I am sure that some of your Lordships have had the opportunity to read that debate—but the question was what level of information should be published. Let us remember that all this information is collected by Companies House, so it is on record. In terms of crime fighting, it will be fully available to Companies House for the processes that all companies are obliged to undergo. It is perfectly reasonable to have a debate about what level of transparency there should be when it comes to publishing information. As I said before an intervention, it may also be appropriate for there to be a presumption of privacy for small, micro-entity information, given that some of those very small businesses are in effect people’s private wealth.

We should not conflate the work that we are trying to do here on Companies House, corporate transparency and reducing crime with some of the powerful principles around privacy, investment, family and protection, which are not irrelevant. It is important that we have a debate about this. The Government have committed actively to explore levels of information that should be published. The Treasury is very specific on my mandate in this discussion. I am not mandated to commit to any level of transparency above and beyond what we are already doing, which is a significant change, yet, at the same time, I can, and am keen to, commit to further debate about the level of transparency.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My noble friend’s own Amendment 76H is in a different group to this one, but it is likely that we will debate it later today. By then, he may not have had time to take further advice about the default position that we would like to see; that is, everything should be made open unless there is a good reason for it not to be. I was struck by the expression that he used a moment ago, particularly when dealing with micro-companies, that the default position should be one of confidentiality—“secrecy” is an emotive word—in favour of the micro-company and its owners as opposed to the other way around.

We are looking for a general rule, a general default position, that there should be openness unless there is a very good reason for there not to be—and, as my noble friend pointed out, there will be occasions when there is a very good reason not to have an open-source register. Is my noble friend in a position, even if he is not able to do so later this afternoon when government Amendment 76H comes to be debated, to amend or clarify the Government’s position? Can he assure us that Report will be the occasion when this further debate will be held? To say that there will be opportunities for a debate about the default position does not pin it down to a particular date or time. My noble friend will know, and the usual channels will know, that time is precious and Governments can often find an excuse, based on inconvenience, not to allow a debate that is required to take place.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble and learned friend for that point. Going back to the comment the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, made about the statistics on registered entities, I understand that there is a website that tracks this, which the Committee can log on to each day to see progress. We will send that link around to encourage your Lordships to look at it, but at the same time we will make sure that we provide more information about the statistics.

I cannot commit to a debate on trust transparency at this stage, but what I can commit to is that the Government are exploring this topic, which I think is separate to some of the discussions we are having. I would like to clarify my own point, which the noble Lord raised, about micro-entities and the assumption of publishing. I believe that the assumption is that the information would be published. My point was that I think it is perfectly reasonable to have differing views over this on account of areas such as privacy, if I can have a personal view as a Minister. I am very happy to have a debate about whether there is a discussion to be had around privacy for micro-entities publishing all their information, given how personal that can be. I think it is perfectly legitimate for trusts, in many instances, to be considered private affairs, so long as the authorities themselves have the transparency of information that they need.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Garnier and Lord Johnson of Lainston

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am always grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for his interventions. As I said, we are looking forward to having a full discussion about this issue in our proceedings over the next few weeks. From my personal point of view, it is right that there is a higher degree of transparency and it is absolutely right that we should look closely at trying to ensure that the identity of the verifier is also linked to the verification of the identity.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

I was interested in the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. I have been listening carefully to what my noble friend the Minister has been saying. When we have these further discussions, either in Committee or elsewhere, could he kindly come with a few reasons to support the arguments that he is currently putting forward? I do not get the impression that the cogs are quite meeting here. I know that the Minister is under some constraint because this Bill has been pushed here from the other place by the Secretary of State, but I would be interested in getting to grips with the underlying rationality that supports the words that the Minister is uttering. I do not intend to be rude—I hope that I am not coming across as such; it is probably my fault for being obtuse—but I am missing bits that might encourage me to think that we are moving forward.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble and learned friend for his intervention, as always. I am sorry if my words have not been clear enough. I hope that, over the next few weeks as the Bill proceeds through the House, we will have conversations that will allow us to come to a sensible conclusion on this issue. In trying to justify why we should not publish the name of an ACSP against the verified identity, we will of course provide reasons. The point is that we should have a sensible, legitimate discussion about this. It is not for me at this Dispatch Box to come up with a variety of reasons or excuses because this is an important point that we want to look into with great seriousness.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

We had a great deal of fun working out which part of the identified person’s anatomy should form the main part of the photograph. I am happy to say that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, has obviously learned from that hideous experience. This seems an altogether better set of proposals.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Ponsonby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for Amendment 50. As has been discussed, it seeks to require that the new identity verification process includes the use of photographic ID issued by a recognised authority. Although I welcome our shared ambition to ensure that identity verification will be a robust process, I am concerned about noble Lords’ proposed approach to limit the acceptable documents in primary legislation. Under Clause 64 of the Bill, the procedure for identity verification, including what evidence will be required, will be set out in secondary legislation.

I apologise, as always, for not answering noble Lords’ questions. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, raised how I dodged his question the first time. I hope I am not dodging it a second time but I would be delighted to write to noble Lords with some further information on the specific detail that is required for identity verification. Let me be very clear: we assume that it will include a photograph. However, I will come on to explain why that may not necessarily be the case in every instance.

Setting this out in secondary legislation will allow for flexibility and ensure that the technical detail of the identity verification process can be adapted to meet evolving industry standards and technological developments. Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise these regulations via the affirmative procedure. I assure noble Lords that, for the majority of individuals, photographic ID will be used. The primary identity verification route will be via the so-called “selfie verification” method, which will involve the person providing documents such as a passport or driving licence. The person undergoing identity verification will take a photograph or scan of their face—my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier may be pleased by this specificity—and the identifying document. The two will be compared using likeness-matching technology, and the identity verified.

However, I am concerned that the proposed amendment would exclude individuals who do not have photographic ID. Restricting the acceptable documents could inadvertently discriminate against a number of people and raises equality concerns. For example, would it be fair for the law to prevent individuals setting up a company simply because they do not have a passport or a driving licence? Should an individual who has owned the freehold of their home for decades via a company now be forced to apply for photographic ID despite there being no other statutory requirement to have one? This is why, for individuals who cannot provide such documentation, there will be alternative options available. I assure the Committee that these will be robust and proportionate.

Most importantly, all providers will conduct checks in line with the cross-government identity proofing framework—the GPG 45—which will be comparable to verification checks conducted elsewhere in government. Under the GPG 45 framework, a combination of non-photographic documents, including government, financial and social history documents, can be accepted to achieve a good-level assurance of identity. ID documentation from an authoritative source such as the financial sector or local authorities is also recognised under the cross-government identity proofing framework and is routinely used to build a picture of identity.

For the reasons I have set out, I hope that noble Lords will understand the philosophy of my approach and agree that requiring in primary legislation that an individual provide official photographic ID to verify their identity would be unnecessarily restrictive and potentially unfair. I am afraid that I must therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Garnier and Lord Johnson of Lainston

Committee stage
Monday 27th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I do not want noble Lords at any point to think that I am being defensive in any way, as we are having a collaborative debate around the objectives of trying to improve company law and registration of companies and the integrity of the information stored at Companies House.

Objective 1 is pretty clear in referring to

“any person who is required to deliver a document to the registrar does so”,

and objective 2 is very clear and specific in saying

“to ensure that documents delivered to the registrar are complete and contain accurate information”.

They are unambiguous points—that is very clear. There is no question about there being some grey area around that. But with regard to objective 3 and

“creating a false or misleading impression to members of the public”,

clearly that is relatively subjective statement. It is clear that we have made efforts in this Bill to ensure that company names, for example, cannot be used to be misleading, and additional powers have been placed with the Secretary of State to ensure that companies have to change their names—but there is an element of subjectivity around a company name. To some extent, it is not totally prescriptive. Objective 4 then says,

“to minimise the extent to which companies and others … carry out unlawful activities, or … facilitate the carrying out by others of unlawful activities”.

These are complicated areas, in which, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said, issues around forensic accounting, and so on, have been raised. Nothing is necessarily as straightforward as it seems. The principle here is to try to reduce the crime clearly to zero—so if the registrar reduced levels of criminal activity to a certain percentage, which they felt were somehow in a target range and then stopped their work, we would consider that to be entirely inappropriate. At the same time, they have a very clear objective, which is to minimise financial misconduct and criminality. That flexibility enables the registrar to perform her functions appropriately.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

I do not want to prolong this debate because, although it is fascinating, it is something that can be dealt with in the period between now and Report. Perhaps my noble friend could, with his officials, run through the dictionary to find a slightly punchier verb. We all know what “minimise” means—to reduce to a minimum. I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, is making. A slightly more aggressive approach to criminal activity or people’s misconduct in using the Companies House system is probably required. It is just a tweak in the language; we are not going to World War III over this—it is just a question of going back, having a look at a dictionary and seeing if they can find a slightly more aggressive word.