Fisheries Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting discussion—a counterpart to the discussion on the first group, where we failed to agree. This had a lot more agreement, though there are drafting issues that need to be addressed in the Bill if we are fully to realise the sorts of changes that are in everybody’s minds as we approach this opportunity, as my noble friend Lord Grocott described it, to improve what we do in relation to our fishing and fishing resources, as we have been trying to do for some time. I point out to him that, although it is nice that he is happy and feels joyful about this debate, the real test will be whether we end up with something different from a simple rehash of the existing common fisheries policy. That test is now ahead of us as we begin to drill down into the particularities of the Bill.

I will speak to Amendment 8 in the name of my noble friend Lord Grantchester, who we did not think would be here in time to speak but luckily has appeared—almost in time; he will take over from me as we go through the Bill—and Amendment 9, tabled by my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch. Amendment 8 is a probing amendment to ask the Government to specify more clearly what “economically viable” means in practice under the Bill and how it might be applied, and to gain a clearer understanding of the relative importance of viability compared with sustainability, which has been the theme of most of the contributions so far.

Amendment 9 targets the same sustainability objective and seeks to bring the term “maximum sustainable yield” into the Bill. At present the Government favour a phrase which we do not think has quite caught the essence of what we are trying to do about overexploitation of marine stocks and which seems to offer less clarity than the forward-looking point made by just about all noble Lords: there will be no fishing unless we have a sustainable stock on which to operate.

All noble Lords agree there has to be a vibrant fishing industry. It is part of our heritage as an island nation and, as we will discuss during the Bill’s passage, our catch both helps feed people here and is sold abroad to others who want to buy these products. As the Minister said in his opening statement, we are talking about a highly organised industry. Hard-working fishers being fairly rewarded for their work at sea is important. It is a very physically demanding and often dangerous job, and they have to endure long periods of separation from their loved ones. They should be remunerated accordingly. The economics of the industry must be geared to ensure that there is something there for everybody, not just the fishers; the ports and processing plants need to make their fair share. This is important if we are to encourage them to contribute to the climate change objective—something that will be the focus of subsequent debates but has already been raised.

While we want a viable fishing fleet for many years to come, we have been in meetings with outside groups that feel that the current wording of the Bill may allow the economic to trump the environmental, particularly, as I have already said, as it refers to overexploitation rather than maximum sustainable yield. If that were to be the case, ironically, we would find ourselves in no better position than we are under the common fisheries policy. It would make this Bill a missed opportunity to put sustainability front and centre of the new approach. There is enough support around the Committee to suggest that the Minister might want to look at this carefully when he responds.

I am aware that the Minister has met many Members of your Lordships’ House and has made time to discuss amendments. I understand that these discussions have been valuable, and I hope that he will be able to offer the same reassurance to others who wish to join the debate now and in the future. I hope that when the Minister responds, he will confirm what he envisages happening if the second part of the sustainability objective cannot, despite the best endeavours of the fisheries authorities, be met. Would boats be allowed to overexploit stocks to ensure their viability? If not, what options would the Government or the devolved Administrations have available if they wanted to step in? This is a tricky balancing act. It is certainly not easy, and I know the Minister appreciates that and takes it seriously. I look forward to him providing further detail on the Government’s approach.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, at Second Reading I made it clear that sustainability is at the heart of the Bill, so I am pleased that one of the first discussions we are having in Committee relates to this area of utmost importance. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, said, this work involves balance. Balance is necessary in these matters and is why our work with the devolved Administrations has been so valuable but intricate.

The Government’s view and that from our discussions with the devolved Administrations is that sustainability is often considered a three-legged stool, consisting of environmental, social and economic factors. To achieve the true sustainability of a healthy environment, thriving communities and a vibrant industry, it is important that a balance exists between them. That is a point that, in the wrestling of this, was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. They are also not mutually exclusive. For instance, if fish stocks are managed at sustainable levels, the stocks are protected into the future, while allowing the fishing industry to remain profitable and able to provide benefits to coastal communities and beyond. That point was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, and my noble friend Lord Caithness.

The fisheries objectives in the Bill work together to set out the core principles to achieve a successful and sustainable fisheries management regime, with the joint fisheries statement setting out the policies that will contribute to achieving our objectives. While I therefore fully support the aim—and I emphasise aim—of Amendment 2, which seeks to ensure that socio- economics are included within the fisheries objectives, I believe it is unnecessary and will explain why.

The sustainability objective currently sets out a requirement in the Bill that fish and aquaculture activities are

“managed so as to achieve economic, social and employment benefits”.

The Bill includes a number of objectives relating to environmental sustainability, while also recognising the need to take into account socioeconomic issues. Given that, in response to Amendment 6, I should like to set out in more detail what we aim to achieve by seeking a balanced approach to the objectives set out in Clause 1. I also understand that Amendment 10 in this group further seeks to change the Bill in the context of Amendment 6.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

We have had very successful and collaborative discussions and arrangements with all the devolved Administrations. They have taken this matter very seriously, and we are legislating on behalf of the devolved Administrations as well. I do not think many noble Lords are seeking to change the devolution arrangements through the Fisheries Bill. That would be unwise and not sensible.

We are seeking to have sustainability at the heart of the Bill, but sustainability—as the UN describes it—is not just environmental; it is a balance. Clearly, we want fisheries stocks which enable communities to prosper. That is the whole thrust of this, and why it is a package. I say to the noble Baroness: I do not see it in those terms. We are collaboratively working with our friends and partners across the United Kingdom, on something which requires balance. Sustainability is at the heart of the Bill, and that is why I have made the remarks I have.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

To follow up on what the noble Baroness has said, we understand the delicacy of the situation and that considerable discussion has preceded the Bill we are debating today. I wonder whether she has a point: if it is already all sewn up and too difficult to change, what is the point? Will the Minister reassure us that this amendment is not just being turned down because it would be too difficult? The mood of the House seems to be that this is worthy of further consideration, if not necessarily being voted through.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

No, my Lords. Obviously, I recognise that the noble Lords who have spoken feel particularly strongly about environmental sustainability. I have argued, what the Government feel is a compelling case, that sustainability is a balance. Therefore, the package we are bringing forward has been worked on not with one devolved Administration, but with all of them.

It has always been the point that noble Lords need to make a compelling case in all matters. The Government and the devolved Administrations have worked on this, mindful of observations made during the period of, let us say, the Fisheries Bills. That is how I would describe it; it is important we have these considerations. I have been clear—as when I referred to the UN—that sustainability has a range of points to it, and that is what I have been seeking to describe.

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[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I believe the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, was going beyond grant funding and referring to the allocation of fishing rights. That confers a financial benefit to the recipient of those rights, so it is much broader than just grants.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I would like one more chance to narrow down the point on which we were exchanging before the other two very good contributions came in.

The noble Lord has a reputation in this House for being very easy to talk to and very willing to engage in debate. I am slightly trading on that because, in my experience, on any Bill there is a worry that the Minister will get it drummed into him by those sitting in the Box that he must never concede anything. Sometimes, however, we can be in quite a difficult mode, when good points are made but the willingness to concede is not there from the Minister concerned. I know that the noble Lord is not like that. It may not happen on the point that we have been discussing, although it is a very good one from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, but issues will come up in future amendments to do with the workforce health and safety, on which the Committee may feel that a change in wording is possible. Will he just confirm, for the sake of allowing us to go forward, that he is not against the possibility of that happening and that, if it were the case, he would undertake the necessary consultations that might be required to bring the devolved Assemblies, and others who signed up to the previous version of the Bill, up to the new standard that will be set by this House?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I will conclude on this, otherwise the “Ah, buts” will lose the force of the sustainability point of this debate. It is clear, I believe—as I always have—that the House and your Lordships need to make a compelling case, which a government Minister will always want to listen to. If a compelling case is made, as I have said previously, my answer will be, “Gosh, I wish we’d thought of that.” I emphasise that the Bill has been considered over a very long time. We have one go at this Bill and there have been a lot of representations. It has gone through a mincer in a way that most other Bills do not. Given our very close connections and our responsibilities, and given that fishing is devolved, we have worked collaboratively and positively with the devolved Administrations. I emphasise to the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, that I do not use that as an excuse. It is a statement of fact that we are legislating on behalf of all parts of the kingdom. That is really what I wish to say at this point.

US-imposed Trade Tariffs

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, with this episode we move from the sunny uplands of the free trade world, which we so often hear about, to the reality of trade activity. It should not be a surprise that this is happening. It is no secret that the American President has sought to define his Administration on a trade warfare basis. He seeks to put the interests of America first and to repatriate jobs and industry to the USA. What else could we expect? We should not be surprised at this latest démarche. We saw the United States’ negotiating objectives for a future trade agreement with the UK. It was obvious that the language of the UK-US document was extremely aggressive, demanding concessions but offering little in return. The introduction says it all:

“The United States seeks to support higher-paying jobs in the United States and to grow the US economy by improving US opportunities for trade and investment with the UK”.


We have seen it all before.

The measures being imposed by the United States will see tariffs on a range of food, drink and textile products including olives, cheese, wine, jumpers and Scotch whisky. Many of these products are subject to geographical indications, appellations awarded under trade agreements to protect products of cultural heritage. American producers have made no secret of their desire to apply iconic labels such as Stilton cheese or Scotch whisky to products made wholly in the USA using similar production techniques.

I have a question about this. During the proceedings on the Trade Bill, we got the Government to agree to support the continuation of EU GIs. Is that still our policy?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I repeat what I said before to the noble Lord and I declare my interest in the register of a shareholding in the drinks industry.

Resorting to tariffs is not in the interests of this country, the EU or the United States if we are to have the productive economic relationship with the United States which we are working on and want to have. It is already our largest trading partner outside the EU. It is clear that we need to have a positive, mutually beneficial relationship with the United States. We believe that that is the way forward because the United States is an important market for our produce.

Geographical indicators is not my specialist subject, I am afraid, but it seems to me that Scotch whisky comes from Scotland and Bushmills comes from Northern Ireland. We should cherish our produce and I am grateful to the noble Lord for his remarks.

Brexit: Food Standards

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I referred to briefly in my opening remarks, we will retain all current UK import requirements. Existing UK import standards will apply. The level of a tariff does not change what can and cannot be imported. WTO rules allow WTO members to adopt and maintain trade-restrictive measures on specified public policy grounds, including the protection of human, animal and plant life and health, public morals and conservation.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, surely the question here is why the noble Lord did not respond to the point about tariffs. It is the tariffs that will destroy farming activity in this country, because the exports will be open to others, as currently arranged, and the costs will be passed on to consumers. Why have the Government not brought forward the statutory instruments required to put these in place?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, perhaps I am the one who is confused. I have made it absolutely clear that all the EU import requirements will remain, irrespective of the tariff regime. The noble Lord shakes his head but that is the truth. It will be the law. All the EU import requirements will continue and that is the precise point I am making. This is why the consumer is secure. All of these elements cannot be imported unless they have the standards currently in place.

Disabled People: Sports Stadia

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 9th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that sports stadia in the United Kingdom are made fully accessible for spectators with a disability.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are working to ensure that all spectators have equal access to sporting venues and services, and that the owners of stadia are aware of their responsibilities towards disabled spectators. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is working with the Department for Work and Pensions and the Equality and Human Rights Commission to ensure that the rights of disabled spectators are properly recognised.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, according to the charity Level Playing Field, only 15% of Premier League clubs are providing sufficient wheelchair space for disabled people, and access for people with other kinds of impairment is said to be “woefully inadequate”. The Equality Act 2010 makes it illegal for football clubs to treat disabled people less favourably than other customers, so is it not time to ensure that all football stadia are fully accessible so that disabled fans are supported? Should this not apply to every level of this beautiful game?

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Thursday 5th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, once again, we have had a very good discussion about this topic. Although much stress was placed on the unanimity of view last time, I seem to recall myself being somewhat isolated and not in favour of what was proposed. I plead on this that I was simply arguing for good governance and not for a radical change in approach, because I share many of the views that have been expressed today. I simply think that the complexity of the matter is undervalued. The technological changes and all the other things that people are asserting without much evidence need to be tested by proper evidence-gathering and a proper report.

Like other noble Lords, I think that the way forward is to do something with Section 73 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act. There is some obvious logic in having the primary legislation already banked in order that it can be implemented when the time comes, but the right process would be to carry out the review to be absolutely certain that the complexities which are present are properly analysed, that the regulatory structure—in so far as it can be—is made future-proof, and that we come forward with a proposal in a coherent and proper way. I hope that the Minister will be able to shed light on the complicated manoeuvrings that are going on behind the scenes but have yet to see the light of day.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for his amendment. We certainly missed him in Committee, when we had an excellent debate—and we have had a similarly excellent debate today.

The amendment would create the power for the Secretary of State to repeal in whole or in part Section 73 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Section 73 permits the retransmission, on cable, of the main PSB channels by providing that the copyright in the broadcast is not infringed by such retransmission. The resulting effect of Section 73 is that public service broadcasters are not able to charge cable operators for the retransmission of their services. This is clearly an area where many competing interests, particularly those of broadcasters, platforms and viewers, must in some way be balanced.

The Government’s approach is not to abolish Section 73 without exploring these interactions within the wider framework of regulation that impacts the balance of payments between platforms and PSBs. As has already been mentioned today, the Culture Secretary announced last October that the Government were looking at whether the time was right to remove Section 73 of the 1988 Act, which could allow PSBs to invest more in high-quality content.

Our view is that, rather than doing so in isolation, we need to look at this in the wider context, examining the framework of regulation that governs the balance of payments between broadcasters and platforms. I have heard it said in my short time in your Lordships’ House that when the two Front Benches agree, we are into very difficult territory—but this is an area of complexity that we need to look at properly.

We are very sympathetic—I emphasise, very sympathetic—with the aim of this amendment, which seeks to give Ministers the power to repeal Section 73 following consultations, but our view is that it would not give us all the powers necessary to repeal it fully. As I think everyone accepts, Section 73 does not exist in isolation. It underpins complex commercial arrangements between the cable operator Virgin and the public service broadcasters. We need to consider carefully what the impact of the repeal would be on these existing arrangements and consider what consequential and/or transitional provision would be needed when repealing Section 73. Parliamentary counsel advised that the amendment as drafted does not give Ministers the powers to make such a provision.

The Government intend to consult shortly. I fully understand the impatience, frustration and perhaps more than that, which many of your Lordships have expressed. I want to take this opportunity to run through the detail that I have available to me. I do not have all the answers, but I would like to explain the following. Part of this issue has been complicated by the Court of Appeal case, and we still await the judgment. But my understanding is that the consultation will definitely be before the election; in fact, we are proposing for it to be launched in a week or so. I understand that it will take eight to 12 weeks to complete, and then it will have to be assessed. I will make sure that all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate receive a copy of the consultation document so that it is available immediately.

It will be a broad consultation on the whole infrastructure, obviously including Section 73. However, it is important that Parliament has evidence of what may be the unforeseen consequences: for example, with arrangements for addressing areas that are difficult to broadcast to, such as houses in very steep valleys. As with all these things, it is the unintended consequences for the viewer that we need to watch out for.

I understand my noble friend’s frustration and am sure that in his winding up remarks he will stress that he does not think that the Government have acted as expeditiously as he would like. However, it is important that we make sure we get this right. As I said, we could not accept this amendment in any event because it is defective so far as parliamentary counsel is concerned. Our proposal is that we will consult—as I said—and then bring forward legislation to repeal Section 73 once the process and all the permutations and unforeseen circumstances that there potentially may be have been properly addressed. It is for those reasons and not for reasons of delay or lack of concern that I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

It is really unfortunate to have drawn the straw following that contribution. The noble Lord has spoilt my day, but that was a very nice way of doing it; I thank him very much.

I was going to start with a little riff on why the true author of this amendment was being withheld from us, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned that he had not been able to be in Committee. It is an irony beyond irony that the first amendment in his name was the rather beautifully named “parasitic packaging” amendment, for which he produced a parasitic package—the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, who not only replicated every word and phrase that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would have used but did so in such a brilliant and concise way that he immediately won the hearts of all of us in Committee. We welcomed back the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, for round two, on the amendment to remove Section 73, which was not quite so successful but was pretty good, and then he went on to busking. Busking was a tour de force; it was almost as good as what we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Deben, because he listed every one of the blooming regulations—I think there were 11 of them—that we are told are inhibiting busking in our greatest world city. I have to say to him, though, that he had obviously missed three because the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has now done even more research and produced another few that he has added to the list.

I absolutely buy what the noble Lord, Lord Deben is selling today, that this is a ridiculous farrago of regulation that needs to be sorted out. There has to be some clarity about what the authorities want out of the regulations that they wish to put forward. There has to be some sense of equity between those who wish to perform and those who wish to listen, and the rights and responsibilities of neighbourhoods in terms of pollution and other things. There has to be the clarity of a single piece of legislation that everyone can refer to.

When the Minister responded in Committee, he used a ridiculous phrase, a chilling remark that I still sometimes wake up and think about in the middle of the night:

“the Metropolitan Police have a desire to retain necessary powers”.—[Official Report, 11/11/14; col. GC 48.]

Come on. It is so easy to say that, and so difficult to get up the energy to say, “Okay, let’s know what these things are”. What are these necessary powers, and what exactly is this desire that the police seem to bear in their corporate bosom to do something about those who wish to entertain and perform in a way that I would have thought to most people would be a very appropriate thing to do in such a major city?

It is up to the Minister to come back on this amendment. I hope that he can step up to the mark and give us a bravura performance, on whatever instrument he chooses, but he should pick up on one point that was raised in discussion in Committee by my noble friend Lord Rooker, who said that there is an obvious and clear remedy for this. The Law Commission exists to tidy up exactly this sort of arrangement, and the Minister said that he would go off and consult on whether it was the appropriate body. First, of course, he said that it was not the appropriate body, but then he was told in no uncertain terms—because that is what my noble friend does—that the commission does indeed look at these things; it is quite happy to update, refresh and reform legislation or regulation that needs it. Surely that is the way forward, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister—in music.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his amendment because it has precipitated a most enjoyable debate. As has been said, these matters were considered in Committee. I assure my noble friend that, following that debate, we have looked again at these issues even more thoroughly. However, I repeat my own sentiments from Committee: the Government are clear that live music and street entertainment play an important role in community life, and can generate a positive atmosphere that can be enjoyed by all. Indeed, only this morning a guitarist in Westminster station was doing precisely that. If I might digress and respond to my noble friend Lord Deben, my definition in life is “drains and radiators” as to how people perform in their lives.

The Government therefore do not start from the position that busking requires regulation and control. However, in our view it is important that backstops are in place on those rare occasions when an anti-social busker does not respond to requests from the police, or when other legislation, such as that relating to noise or anti-social behaviour, is found to be insufficient. It is in those circumstances that we believe the two pieces of legislation mentioned still have a role to play.

As I explained in Committee, the Metropolitan Police Service has advised that it still uses the powers under the 1839 Act for operational and tactical reasons. I am sure that I am not going to satisfy all my noble friend Lord Deben’s demands. I was most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for mentioning the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker; that helpful intervention precipitated officials having detailed discussions with the Law Commission regarding Section 54 of the 1839 Act. The Law Commission has advised that it would be able to recommend repeal of a specific provision only if it appeared, following research and consultation, not to have any practical utility. In this case, the Law Commission has advised that it would be highly unlikely to recommend repeal in the face of sustained opposition from the police.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Thursday 5th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am very flattered to be invited by the noble and learned Lord to reflect on what he has said, which makes a great deal of sense. I suggest that it is for the Government to say whether they could take forward the sensibility of my noble friend Lady Corston’s points because it seems that they might require additional funding, which could of course be provided by the Government, should they wish to do so. It is not my position to say that. However, I think the noble and learned Lord is saying that if one could, with equity, deal with my noble friend’s arrangements then we would have solved one problem. I put it to him that it would not solve the greater problem: that there should be a self-denying ordinance from any Government, and not a willingness to interfere with long-established procedures for making sure that the BBC has the funding it needs to do the job that it is required to do. I hope that he would accept that.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, this has been an extremely interesting debate and comes, as your Lordships’ debates so often do, with a great deal of experience. A television licence is required to watch all live and nearly-live broadcast television content on any device in the United Kingdom. People should not seek to evade this and there needs to be an effective enforcement regime for the failure to have a TV licence.

Clause 64 confers a new power on the Secretary of State, via secondary legislation, to change the sanctions that apply to the failure to have a TV licence. There was significant cross-party support for the TV licensing clauses in the early stages of the Bill in the other place. We believe that the firm commitments set out by the Government at that time should be honoured, particularly given the strong cross-party support. Whatever opinion your Lordships take, the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, made often came to the heart of the dilemma in how we take this matter forward. I will be raising that in greater detail.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I may have to think about what my noble friend is referring to. He has his own way of seeking to bamboozle me. This is about an independent review that will furnish the argument, and, because of its timing, will quite rightly be within the context of the charter review. We think it is reasonable, if there are improvements to be made, whatever options are decided to be the best for all the parties that are part of the terms of reference, to set a particular date if improvements could be made for everyone’s benefit; that would be the best way forward.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

May I assume that the nutcracker which the Minister has just experienced from the two noble Lords behind him is correct and that the answer is yes to both questions? The Minister said yes to the noble Lord, Lord Grade, but, in certain circumstances and with certain results—which is the point made by the other noble Lord—you would go against what the Secretary of State said in open letters to everybody in the country: that the settlement for a five-year period was without precedent and would never be changed because it gave the security required by the BBC to do its job. Now the Minister is accepting exactly the opposite.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, all I am saying is that I am not going to prejudge the review which was established to deal with the matter of revenue to the BBC. Let us see what the review says. But if there are improvements to be made, they should be made within the context of the charter review.

Tourism and Hospitality

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I think that we all want to improve the training skills of young people and indeed all people in that sector, and that is something that the sector itself very much welcomes. I agree with my noble friend. The value of tourism in 2013 was £127 billion.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, a report published recently by the Federation of Small Businesses revealed that some 45,000 small businesses do not have broadband at a high enough speed, while others have very slow speed in connectivity. This is particularly prevalent in rural areas. Could the Minister enlighten us about what is happening to support those groups?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, across the whole rural sector and, indeed, in some urban areas we definitely need to have advances in the broadband sector. It is essential. It is why the Government, in all the press cuttings in all parts of the country, are looking for improvements in coverage. Work is going on to ensure that we get up to 95% by 2017. I hope we will improve on that. The difficult parts are some very remote areas. We are trying to fund ways in which we can get to those parts of the community where broadband is vital for businesses, farmers and everyone involved in those areas. It is a very important issue.

Olympic Lottery Distribution Fund (Winding Up) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, the Olympic Lottery Distribution Fund—the OLDF—was established for the purpose of holding lottery funding for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. The sum of £2.175 billion of National Lottery funds was raised for the Olympics out of a total funding package of £9.3 billion. The statutory instrument before us is an order that will wind up and distribute the remaining funds of the OLDF. The order provides for the remaining £69 million to go to the National Lottery Distribution Fund to be distributed in the usual proportions: that is, 40% to the Big Lottery Fund and 20% each to arts, heritage and sport good causes.

Lottery funds contributed hugely to the costs of staging this tremendous and transformative event, and it is right that we are able to give back to the NLDF in order to support good causes throughout the country. This approach will ensure that all the National Lottery distribution bodies benefit from these funds, given that they all were affected by the raising of funds for the Olympics.

While the order before us today is straightforward, it is worth taking a moment to pause, reflect and acknowledge the significant role that lottery funding had in supporting the extraordinary London Olympic and Paralympic Games of 2012. It was a once in a lifetime event which bestowed huge benefits on the whole country beyond the Games themselves. Thus the decision was taken, with cross-party support, to use lottery funds in the belief that the benefits to the country in sport, heritage, culture, tourism and regeneration would be greater than the disbenefits brought by a reduction in funding to other good causes.

The memories of that summer will remain with us for many years, from the feats of the elite athletes in our world-class stadiums to the extraordinary efforts of the thousands of volunteer Games Makers. More than that, the Games have left a lasting legacy: 1.7 million more people are playing sport once a week than when we won the bid in 2005; there are new homes and jobs in east London; there has been an increase in tourist numbers and spending; and there has been a huge boost to investment in the UK and to UK trade overseas. This legacy has been hailed by the IOC as a blueprint for future hosts. It has been an immense success for our whole country, and I believe that the return on this investment, funded in part by lottery money, is immense.

This success cannot be separated from the National Lottery. Indeed, in the recent recognition of the National Lottery’s 20th anniversary, the Olympics were brought up again and again as an example of the extraordinary effect that National Lottery funding can have. The investment from the National Lottery has paid truly exceptional dividends.

Some £79 million was previously given to distributors from the OLDF under regulations in July 2014. This, along with the £69 million remaining in the fund, is over and above the £675 million that will go back to distributors from the sale of land in the Olympic park from the early 2020s onwards. We therefore expect lottery distributors to receive back a total of around £823 million. This represents around 38% of the over £2 billion of lottery funding made available for the Games, in addition to all the extraordinary benefits to the country that I set out earlier.

The funds from the OLDF that are being returned to the NLDF will be put to good use. In anticipation of these funds, the previous Secretary of State for Culture held conversations with lottery distributors in late 2013, leading to a series of announcements of new funding programmes. These include: funding from the Arts Council England to promote the best of arts and culture from the UK to overseas countries; funding from the Heritage Lottery Fund to mark significant anniversaries across the UK; a programme from Sport England to improve the outdoor play areas in school; and many more.

The order dissolves the OLDF, which was set up specifically for the Olympic Games. Through sharing the remaining funds across the distribution bodies in the usual proportions, it also represents the Government’s strong commitment to ensure that good causes are supported fairly and well into the future. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving that full introduction to the order. I have no objection in principle to what has been said. I have a couple of points to make and a couple of questions that he might wish to answer, either today or subsequently in writing.

The first is my favourite comment about dates. There is a requirement on all who provide statutory instruments that they be brought in on common commencement dates, which are 6 April and 1 October each year. Why is this instrument not being introduced on a particular CCD? Before the Minister asks for guidance on that, perhaps I may continue a little because I am aware that the statutory instrument states that the order will come into force,

“in accordance with article 1”,

which states that the order will come into force,

“on the day after the day on which it is made”.

The date is not quite right in that sense.

I did not hear the Minister comment on the exchange of correspondence with the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Would he like to do so, given that considerable pressure is placed on the department for failing to observe the rules and regulations relating to this issue? This may seem to be a trivial point, since I think I am right in saying that all that was required was that the statutory instrument should have been labelled in such a form that made it clear that it was one of those to which special consideration applied. I can see puzzled looks behind the noble Lord, so I may have got this completely wrong—but I have the relevant document here, which refers to the Olympic Delivery Authority (Dissolution) Order. I just wanted to check whether I had misunderstood what was being said, so perhaps the Minister can respond on that point. I think the matter is resolved and is not an issue, but it does bear on my point about the date, given that the date is now postponed for 40 days after the passing of the arrangements—which, again, takes us away from 1 October, and indeed 6 April.

More generally, I listened carefully to the story about the £2.175 billion in lottery funding placed at the disposal of the Olympic lottery distribution body. Again, I associate myself with the Minister’s comments about the brilliance of the Games and the way in which the lottery was able to play a key part. We fully accept that without this lottery funding there would have been a very different approach to Games; indeed, they would not have been as good as they were.

However, he was not entirely complete in his comments. The money that the Government were going to contribute through the lottery—or ask the lottery to contribute—was £1.85 billion, but he said that the amount spent was £2.175 billion. I just want to check my recollection of the difference between those figures. I think that I am right in saying that an additional tariff was placed on the normal lottery distributors—the arts, heritage and sports bodies—of £675 million each to top up the figures. That brings us very close to the £2.175 billion that the noble Lord mentioned. Can he confirm that my arithmetic is, if not exactly right, at least close to an approximation of what happened on the ground?

The reason I make that point is that I think the Minister also said that, at the winding up of this fund, there would be some £69 million left available, which technically should be with the OLDF but which is being transferred across to the NLDF—I apologise for the acronyms. That is good, but it is only 10% of the money that would have been going normally to these lottery distributors had the Olympic Games not happened. Perhaps the Minister could reflect on this. Again, I am delighted to see bodies now distributing the additional money for the good purposes which he mentioned in his closing remarks, but it would have been a rather different story had it been the full £675 million. That would have meant rather more being spent on the arts, sport and other matters of good value—but it is only £69 million. That is point one.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Thursday 20th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, Amendment 99 seeks to amend Clause 90, which deals with commencement. Clause 90 provides for the commencement of the different provisions in the Bill, specifying which provisions come into force on the day on which the Act is passed, which provisions come into force two months after that day and which provisions come into force by order.

Amendment 99 has two parts. The substantive element of the first part of the amendment alters the commencement clause to bring certain additional provisions into force on Royal Assent, for example, Clause 31—which rectifies an unintended aspect of the law about tenancy deposits—and Clause 67, which gives HMRC power to disclose information for the purposes of mesothelioma litigation. Each of these has received law officers’ consent for early commencement. Clause 67 is perhaps a particularly good example of where prompt commencement would be beneficial, as it helps the families and dependants of the victims who have died from diffuse mesothelioma.

The second part of the amendment does not bring any legislation into force but activates selected powers to make subordinate legislation by statutory instrument on Royal Assent. This aims to facilitate the making of subordinate legislation, so that progress can be made as quickly as possible. As a result of this amendment, it would be possible to lay statutory instruments very soon after Royal Assent. I emphasise that the usual timeframes and rules about parliamentary scrutiny which apply to subordinate legislation would continue to apply. The clauses included in the second part of the amendment are the provisions relating to health and safety, civil penalties for parking contraventions, child trust funds, driving instructors, agricultural holdings, the provision of passenger rail services and the testing of vehicles, as well as some of the provisions relating to apprenticeships.

Amendment 101 is consequential to Amendment 99, and Amendment 105 is a minor and technical change which makes drafting improvements. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am sure that the hearts of noble Lords opposite will sink as I rise to address these not very major—although they are not unimportant—amendments. However, I wanted to say that when I started the Bill, I had a very poor opinion of it. Having spent what seems like an endless time in Committee—although it has been only eight sessions, one of which was on the Floor of the House—my substantive view of the Bill is unchanged. I still think it is not the way to deal with much of the legislation we should be doing but I want to put on record how much I have enjoyed the process of being disappointed. The Bill team has been very good at providing material when we have needed it, and I have enjoyed the discussions with noble Lords and Ministers. We have drawn an attentive and often expert audience to some of our debates, if not to all of them, and those who have contributed have done so with the best spirit.

I know that it is customary to give thanks for the work done towards the end of a Bill, but given the way this Bill is organised and structured, the meat of the debate has been in Committee. We have done a very thorough job of going through areas that have sometimes reflected the wildest extremes of government legislation of past decades, which I have always been interested in. I just wanted to put that on the record.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As the noble Lord has raised the issue, it would be appropriate to say that my colleagues and I feel that we have been well served by officials. There is a force for good in the measures, and we seek deregulation where it is seemly. We are grateful for the support that we have had, but there will obviously be issues that we do need to look at. We look forward to discussions with the noble Lord and other noble Lords so that, before Report I hope, there will be general satisfaction about the measures we wish to proceed with.

UK Economy: Tourism

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Thursday 20th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That is why we are very keen to hear the reports as to how we can address the matter.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, the good news about the tourism industry is that there are many flexible jobs in areas of relatively high unemployment, more jobs for women and a higher number of SMEs. This is to be welcomed but the bad news, as we have just heard, is that these are generally low-paid jobs with limited opportunities for training. They offer little, if any, chance for apprenticeships and there is increasing use of zero-hour contracts. As a result there is a rising tide of job insecurity in the sector. Does the Minister have a plan, and what precisely will it achieve?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

There is very much a plan. That is precisely why the Prime Minister announced that the next phase of trail-blazers would be attributed to the tourism and hospitality sector. That is very much ongoing. The British Hospitality Association has pledged to create 300,000 jobs by 2020. Many reputable companies are running apprenticeship schemes. There is masses going on in the Government’s apprenticeship scheme and in other companies.

Legislative Reform (Entertainment Licensing) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 17th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the order. I have no particular objection to it as it stands, and I agree with many points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in his current mainstream form, although I have welcomed him in surrogate packaging form on a couple of other recent occasions.

First, I want to say how nice it is that this order will come into force on 6 April 2015, which is one of the common commencement dates, and that the department has been able to find a way in which to make that happen this time. However, I do not quite follow the argument that I heard the Minister make about how the four principal objectives of public licensing come through in the specifics of some of the issues raised by this order. The one on which I want to concentrate particularly is children. I understand that crime, public safety and public nuisance issues are well dealt with because there are other ways in which they can be addressed. The choice of low-risk venues and the experience over a reasonable period with deregulated live music gives us all confidence that there are ways in which this will come through. However, I put one caveat on that, in that I worry slightly about the size of some of these venues.

In preparing for the debate that we had last week on the deregulation of community cinema, we were told by a number of expert witnesses that the size specified of 500 people was very large in proportion to existing community premises, which tend to be much smaller, and to the licensed exhibition of films. Sadly, these days there are very few cinemas; there used to be cinemas that could hold up to 2,000, particularly in London, whereas most cinemas now hold something of the order of between 300 and 500 people. So we talking about deregulating what is admittedly a low-risk environment—venues that are probably not in existence and are unlikely to be built. I wonder slightly about that, but it is not my main concern, which is that in crime, public safety and public nuisance we have reasonable experience of what has happened in the deregulatory phases of the past two years, and we understand how the regulations will apply.

Let me just take two issues. It may be a good thing to ensure that the licensing treatment for peripatetic circuses is evened up across the country. Removing regulations is a novel way of doing this—although I understand the reasoning—since it avoids the possibility of different approaches in different areas. However, circuses are aimed at children and in my experience, although I have not been to a circus for many years, most of the performances include bringing children on stage, or certainly engaging them through the clowns and various other aspects. There must a priori be an interest in ensuring that the child protection aspects of that are well considered. Will the Minister point out where that appears in the order, as I could not see it in relation to circuses? As I read the order, there is nothing specific addressing children. There is a lacuna there that we might wish to reflect on.

Secondly, there is the addition, for reasons that I do not quite understand and would like an explanation about, of Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling. I am not a wrestling aficionado and am certainly not an expert, but I do not quite get why they have been picked out in preference to many other styles of wrestling. I do not really understand how it can be said that they are by some definition freer from concerns about public order issues than might apparently apply to Cumbrian wrestling or indeed, if we were talking about Scotland, which sadly we are not, Scottish wrestling, which is, as far as I understand it, certainly not public nuisance-free. It seems to take place in Scottish highland games, at which there are very large amounts of alcohol copiously available. Apparently for Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling you have to be not only an aficionado but under the auspices of British Wrestling, an organisation I am not familiar with, but which is apparently the one specified. By some miraculous arrangement—perhaps the Greco-Roman gods are looking over this—there is no alcohol present because that just does not happen. That may be true, but it seems rather odd to have picked out Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling for this, particularly as the order makes provision for this to take place in venues for up to 1,000. Not 200, not 500, but 1,000 people can gather together for an alcohol-free festival of Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling. That is good news. Again, I worry a bit about that, but I worry also about the child protection aspects. This is an area where, presumably, young people are being brought to encourage them. It is very physical and very direct exercise—it was pretty good in the Olympic Games, and it was interesting that in the audience, there were quite a lot of children watching. My concerns are therefore obvious and I will be grateful if the Minister will respond to them.

Other than that, we think that the order is well presented. Like the noble Lord, I thought the Explanatory Memorandum was very good. I enjoyed reading it and felt it answered many of the questions I had.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for their overarching welcome for the thrust of what we are seeking to achieve. I understand my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones’s reference to stately progress. It is sometimes important to get it right, but I understand the frustrations when things take rather longer than one would wish. My noble friend used the words “the right balance”. The Government have sought to find the right balance. The whole purpose of this is to ensure that the activities that we seek to deregulate are at the lower risk end. This is not about in any way changing the main thrust of what is required if there were problems.

On audience limits for live music, we believe—and this is something that has been felt across the piece generally—that 500 achieves a fair balance between promoting creativity and ensuring the sustainability of live music and entertainment yet at the same time protecting local communities from unwanted noise nuisance. In the end, where people run these events, they will be part of the local community, and where you have live music, very often it will affect people in the community who might well go to the pub or to various events. We have this safety mechanism in that when someone has an alcohol licence and the music is causing a problem, there are ways in which the licensing authority can trigger reimposition of sanctions. We have been seeking to achieve the right balance here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful to the Minister for explaining that. However, my other point was that it seemed odd to choose those particular styles of wrestling. The reason as he explained it may well be sufficient, but the bulk of the interest as I understand it is in martial arts, particularly kick-boxing and the like. I am a bit surprised that that is not the way the mind is moving; audiences would certainly be more active in those sort of events, which take place in sports halls and other recreation centres.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am obviously not in a position to say that we might be thinking of extending this beyond these two activities, but as I say, those two—the Greco-Roman and the freestyle—are the only Olympic wrestling events. It may also have something to do with a view that, on balance, they are at the lower-risk end. We will see, but I think that is sensible.

Quite rightly, none of us would wish to do anything in terms of deregulation if for one moment it was to put any child in jeopardy. As for children going into circuses, they provide family-oriented entertainment and are not typically licensed for alcohol purposes. The protection of children from harm is about sexual entertainment and alcohol harm, not about regulating circus performance, which it would arguably be disproportionate to do. I know the noble Lord did not mention this, but in terms for instance of the protection of children who are part of circuses, there are separate child performance regulations covering how many hours a child may perform, which are administered by local authorities. My guess is that most children would go to a circus either with their parents, in a school group, or whatever. I take the point very seriously, but there is no lacuna because these regulations are about ensuring that the key points of the licensing objectives are retained.

Going back somewhat to the size of venues, if someone is organising an event, there may be a limit of 500. However, if you were thinking of getting 500 in a very small pub, that would not necessarily pass the test in terms of all the key factors that a publican or an organiser has to ensure such as fire safety, health and safety, and all the existing legislation and regulations. We are not removing those—we are deregulating for music in this instance.

Again, I will look at Hansard and see whether there are any outstanding reassurance that may be needed, but I think this sets the right balance and is an appropriate form of our deregulation task. I very much commend the order to your Lordships.

Broadcasting (Independent Productions) (Amendment) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 17th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, support the order which at its heart is simply a correction of an earlier infelicitous piece of drafting. Although it has taken a very long time to come through, it is an important step in the right way. Having said that, I slightly wonder why, given that we have been waiting for this, in some senses, since 1990, the Minister feels that it is necessary for it to come into force on the day on which it is made, which I presume will be tomorrow, rather than on one of the common commencement dates, 1 October or 6 April, for the good reason that that would give the industry time to plan and to think through the issues. The Minister will be aware that I have spoken about this in respect of other draft orders laid before Parliament. It is important that if the Government are going to depart from common commencement dates, they should have a very good reason for doing so. Advice to officials is quite clear on that. Certain steps have to be taken, certain requirements have to be met and approvals have to be sought from a central committee, and I do not think that that has happened in this case.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I was struck by the way in which the Explanatory Memorandum and the Minister’s introduction to the order—which he did very well—centre around the original three limbs of cultural diversity, the growth of small and medium-sized businesses and tackling vertical integration. It is interesting that the argument used throughout the Explanatory Memorandum veers towards the last of those, rather than the first two, in trying to come up with answers for why this regulation is in place at all, let alone why it needs to be corrected. My point on this is slightly different from that of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. It is that although they are admirable in every way as aspirations for a system, they are, as he said, possibly a bit otiose in terms of what we now see when we look out to that area, not that we should not be constantly on our guard to make sure that there is a vibrant independent production sector. Will the Minister tell us when it is intended to have a look at them? Are they still the main drivers for these regulatory structures? If they are, and the Government are happy with them, when were they last reviewed? If it was not reasonably recently, when might they be reviewed? I say this in particular because the Government announced in the Secretary of State’s speech to the RTS conference in September 2014 that they were going to redo this order, although information had been circulating for some time about the need for it, particularly Ofcom’s letter of the previous December. In stressing that the Government have been clear that the order before us today does not reflect an intention to amend the rationale for the intervention that has been made, nor to amend the qualification criteria—in other words, the three limbs we were talking about earlier—the Secretary of State left an impression that some form of review was taking place on this. He went on to say that the Government will consider these issues,

“once Ofcom has published its PSB review next summer”.

What will be included in that review announced by the Secretary of State? It is just the three limbs, as previously talked about, or it is some other variation on this matter? I would be grateful for any clarification the Minister can give on that.

Finally, the wording we are faced with in this order, although absolutely correct in terms of the original drafting in 1990 and 2003, speaks to a form of distribution of television that is changing rather fast. While we probably still have independent producers and, to some extent, broadcasters, the consumption patterns of programmes no longer fit the standard definitions that were once the very bedrock on which these regulatory structures were put up. If, as my children do, people consume television entirely through an internet connection on iPads and even iPods and do not subscribe to the idea of having a regulated channel system, whereby broadcasters take programmes and send them round to people to receive through aerials and satellite dishes into their homes, what will it mean in terms of these definitions? I understand that the point here is to catch up with how the industry has defined itself over the past 10 years—that is a good thing—but I wonder whether the order is future-proofed in any way. Perhaps the Minister could reflect on that because, although there is no immediate need for a change here, I signal the fact that this set of definitions will not survive for very much longer.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank your Lordships for their comments. As my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones has said, we are going through a time when the general landscape is being considered and reviewed. Obviously, the comments of PACT and the recent observations by the noble Lord, Lord Hall of Birkenhead, also mean that this whole area is under considerable scrutiny and consideration. My own view is that this is about the quality and the ability of the productions.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to the three limbs. Looking at them again, I think that they are still as relevant, and some of these principles may remain relevant for a very long period of time, because the promotion of small and medium-sized enterprises, diversity and a whole range of issues are important. Certainly, the whole reason why we all wish to review, now or in the future, is because we wish to ensure that we have a vibrant sector. In British television, compared with many other parts of the world, we have not only a vibrant but in many respects high-quality sector.

I will look at Hansard and, if there are some points of timing on which I can help the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I shall write further. As for the changes in the market and terms of trade between indies and broadcasters, that is clearly an issue that has provoked much recent debate among public service broadcasters. The terms of trade have been a key reason why the UK independent sector is such a success story both here and abroad. Of course, this Government want to see that sector grow from strength to strength. The time to consider whether any policy changes are required to ensure that that success can continue and be built on further is after Ofcom has published its PSB review next summer, given that the independent production sector is a key theme of the review.

On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, about why we cannot have a common commencement date, if any apologies are due, I of course give them. However, I understand that Ofcom set guidance for this year’s quota of reporting requirements in October, and the legislation had to be updated to confirm that guidance as soon as possible. As I say, if any further apology is due, I give it now.

It has been very helpful to discuss these points, and I shall want to reflect and speak to colleagues about timings of any further work. In the mean time, I commend the order to your Lordships.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 78ZA, I shall speak to Amendments 78ZB and 78ZC in this group. These are probing amendments, as I have some sympathy for what is being proposed. As a former director of the British Film Institute, I can hardly object to a measure which is aimed, I think, at broadening access to group viewing of films, which must he a good thing. However, I worry that what this clause proposes is at one and the same time oversimplistic and unsighted about some of the problems of operating such venues.

The clause effectively would create two classes of film exhibitor—one that is regulated and another that is unregulated. In the regulated sector would be the majority of current commercial cinema operators and several dozen existing voluntary and community-run enterprises, such as the Ritz Cinema in Thirsk and the Market Hall community cinema in Brynmawr, which in its 120th year was recently awarded “cinema of the year” at the prestigious Screen Awards—something which we should all celebrate.

In the unregulated sector would be the new “community premises” over which the appropriate licensing authorities would have no control. I suggest that we need some definitions. What are the community premises of which the Bill speaks? Will the Minister spell out today the type of venues these community premises would be? Who can operate these events? New Section 6A(2)(b)(i) to be inserted in the Licensing Act 2003 under Clause 58 suggests that they might be,

“a trade, business or other undertaking (for profit or not)”.

I assume that this might include, for example, a pub, a bingo hall or any other place which would otherwise require a local authority licence to attest to its ability to host a public gathering. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that. If such operators were to organise any other type of event, such as a dance or a charity function, particularly if alcohol was to be sold, would these meet the same definition of “community premises” and would they need to be licensed?

The Government have made the proposal sound like an idea to open up windy church halls to genteel afternoon showings of perhaps classics of the silent cinema or even “Brief Encounter” and the like. However, the clause is so loosely worded as to allow for any operator to exhibit any film without a licence. The clause opens up a world in which any group might exhibit virtually any type of film or video presentation in public. What about children? What is role of the BBFC in this matter? What role will the local authority have in all this? I seem to remember that the wonderful film “Life of Brian” is still banned in some local authority areas.

What is a not for profit venue? The Government suggest that this clause is aimed at not for profit venues but no legal definition is offered. Given that the venue itself could be for profit or not, how does that sit with the wording in the clause, which states that the deregulated film exhibition,

“is not provided with a view to profit”?

What does that mean? Does it mean that the film costs less to hire than the price of entry, that the ticket income does not exceed the cost of any venue hire or that the total revenue for the event, perhaps including food and drink, does not exceed total costs, including contributions to the venue’s heating, lighting, staff and other overhead expenditure? We need more detail on that.

At the heart of all this is the question: why should public safety regulations not apply? An existing commercial cinema exhibitor must adhere to licence regimes covering fire, electrical and heating safety, hygienic food handling practices, noise pollution and local environmental rules, as well as, on occasion, fitness to serve alcohol. Why would the Government want to reduce existing levels of public protection? We should remember that these venues will be capable of holding up to 500 people at such an event. What happens if there is a problem such as a fire?

More generally on the size limit, why is it so high? Will the Minister explain the thinking here? I am informed by the Cinema Exhibitors’ Association, which represents well over 90% of UK cinemas, that there are no more than 60 screens nationwide which can show a film to an audience of 500 persons. Why then should an unregulated cinema be allowed to present films in an unregulated environment to so many? I strongly suggest that the Government consider a much lower maximum attendance figure.

Finally, unregulated film exhibition of the type proposed threatens to significantly weaken controls over piracy, which remains a very real threat to the livelihoods of all those working in the wider film industry. What consultations have the Government held with the industry about this, and what reassurances have they given? Are they content with the situation more generally?

Existing licensed cinema operators have a strong history of offering safe, clean, well managed and fair access; the lack of clarity in this clause is not helpful and we need a lot more detail from the Minister when he responds. In an extreme case—it would be extreme, I recognise that—the Government could find themselves deregulating cinema exhibition for a well meaning purpose but letting unsavoury operators into a market that is currently well regarded, law-abiding and safe for its customers and staff. Quite apart from the health and safety, fire, food and environmental regulations gap, will the Minister say how the Government can be certain that the other necessary public protections, such as child protection, will work in practice?

Undefined “community premises” no longer needing to apply for an entertainment licence would effectively fall off the radar of protection and enforcement authorities. The planned changes, although welcome, appear to put at risk the high standards of safety and child protection that have worked well over the years. There would be little or no oversight of the admissions criteria or content shown at community premises and no real control over who could claim such community status and so avoid enforcement. The level playing field in standards for public protection would be lost.

Our amendments point to the need for further work on the maximum audience size, on the definition of community premises and on defining what “not for profit” means in practice—all aimed at avoiding the creation of an unlevel playing field with existing regulated community cinema providers. Assurances are also needed about the continued regulatory role of enforcement bodies in order to ensure that wider public protections are in place to safeguard customers, with regard to, for example, underage admission, BBFC certification, piracy, public decency and safety standards. I beg to move.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment. It is important that I should start with the definition of “community premises”, because I hope to be able to reassure the noble Lord and your Lordships as to the modest nature of these measures, and the protections included in them.

Community premises, as defined in Section 193 of the Licensing Act, are those premises which are or form part of a church hall, a chapel hall or other similar building, or a village hall, parish hall, community hall or similar building. The Government’s view is that this modest measure relates only to the exhibition of film in community premises as I have outlined. We do not believe that these events will bring in meaningful competition with local cinemas, even where such cinemas operate on a not for profit business model. This is because the deregulation is subject to certain conditions, one of which is that the exhibition is not provided with a view to profit. This includes where the profit is for charitable or other fundraising purposes.

The Government believe that intention is the key factor here. For example, a film society is not set up to exhibit films for profit; its intention is to explore film culture rather than to generate income. We are therefore confident that the test of intention will provide protection against an exhibitor with a profit-making motive being able to exhibit a film legally under this exemption. To assist licensing authorities that are responsible for enforcement, and event organisers, the Government will issue revised statutory guidance on this exemption. Indeed only yesterday the Minister for Sport and Tourism deposited in the House Libraries a working draft of the revised Chapter 15 of the licensing guidance, to assist with Parliament’s scrutiny of Clause 58.

A rather more blunt measure of whether or not profit was made, without reflecting the intention, could have a detrimental effect on community film screenings. I will explain why. For example, people would have to be turned away from an unlicensed exhibition if their attendance could give rise to a profit being made. It would also require the event organiser to know, with the audience already present, whether they had generated more income than the total cost of the exhibition. If they had, then in the absence of a licence or other authorisation the exhibition of the film could not legally proceed.

The whole point of this exercise is that the Government wish to remove the licensing burden for low-risk entertainment activities, such as the exhibition of a film in community premises as defined in the circumstances of Clause 58. The Government therefore consider that the clause cannot be exploited by anyone seeking to exhibit films on a “for profit” commercial basis, without the need for a premises licence.

Amendment 78ZB would limit to 250 persons the maximum audience allowable for an exhibition of a film in a community premises. I know that the noble Lord was particularly concerned about that point. The Government consulted widely in 2011 on a proposed audience limit for all forms of entertainment. The audience limit of 500 is reflective of the wider outcome of that consultation. An exhibition of a film is a lower-risk activity, and having an audience limit of 500 people maximises the cultural benefit for community groups and does not, in the opinion of the Local Government Association and others, give rise to particular public safety concerns. The limit also provides a read-across to the 499 audience limit for an event authorised by a temporary event notice.

This limit is generally regarded by local authorities and the emergency services as an appropriate audience ceiling for these sorts of events. Further, it is consistent with other entertainment activities within the Licensing Act, such as a performance of dance or of live music. Indeed, it would be very odd if community premises could put on a pantomime for 500 people without the need for an authorisation, but could show a film of that pantomime to an audience of no more than 250 people. I also make it clear that key safeguards remain in place; Clause 58 makes no changes to protections already in place in respect of alcohol licensing, health and safety, noise pollution or fire safety.

In more detail, the noble Lord’s final amendment in this group seeks to add a further condition to the qualifying criteria. The Government’s starting point is that regulation should be required only where it remains necessary and proportionate to safeguard the licensing objectives. The licensing objectives—set out in the Licensing Act 2003—are in respect of the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, the prevention of public nuisance and the protection of children from harm. The issue of an appropriate audience limit relates most closely to the public safety objective. The Government considered those objectives when preparing these proposals, and concluded that licensing film exhibitions in small community premises could not be justified when assessed against the risk to the four licensing objectives.

The four licensing objectives rightly focus, as I said, on the prevention of disorder and ensuring public safety in places where people gather together in numbers for leisure. They ensure that regulation is focused on what is necessary to protect the public. Very importantly, they also avoid duplication with other regulatory regimes, which can increase the cost of regulatory compliance for all concerned. I will take the proposed conditions in turn. The noble Lord posed these questions, and I hope that your Lordships will find the following reassuring.

As regards fire safety, Clause 58 makes no change to the requirement that community premises owners are responsible for fire safety. This is set out in the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005, which in most cases is enforced by the local fire and rescue authority.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord. If some information can be provided to me during my remarks, I will be able to record it here—but, if not, I will make sure that that noble Lord and the Committee know of the response.

The whole purpose of this part of the Deregulation Bill is to make it easier to exhibit films in village halls and other community premises, as I have suggested. We wish to strike a better balance between necessary protections—I hope that I have outlined what will remain and why that is so important—and removing unnecessary burdens. I think that we would all agree that there are too many examples of burdens sapping the will of volunteers and very often soaking up scarce financial resources.

Where the conditions of this exemption are not met, then, rightly, a licence will still be required. Other key protections will continue to apply, such as alcohol licensing and health and safety and noise abatement legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked a number of questions relating to fire safety and health and safety. A person who organises a film screening will continue to be subject to a whole range of legal duties on fire safety, safe workplaces and public nuisance. This includes a common-law duty of care towards the health and safety of those attending the film screening.

On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Watson, those responsible for the exhibition of a film on community premises must have in place operating arrangements. That would include a suitable child admission policy implementing the recommendation made for that film by the BBFC or local licensing authority. They may operate a membership subscription scheme which pays for entry to all titles in a season and is limited just to adults, or they could sell tickets to the public and ensure that children are permitted entry only in accordance with the age rating for the film. If there is anything further I have on that, I will write to the noble Lord and ensure that other Members of the Committee are made aware of it.

The noble Lord asked about the weakening of controls on piracy and how this could be controlled. Indeed, a film shown in a community premises must be compliant with the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 in the same way as a film shown in a cinema.

The noble Lord raised a number of questions. I know that these are probing amendments but it is important that all the points the noble Lord has raised are clarified and there are assurances that this proposal is a force for good. Coming from the countryside, I know that very often cinemas are 30 or 40 miles away from communities. I do not believe there is competition in place. This is about communities enjoying films to which those who live in suburbs and towns have a much readier access. That is the whole purpose of the clause—to ensure that communities have the advantages that those who live in cities and towns and close to cinemas enjoy. I have been to many community film exhibitions near to where I live. They are well supported and anything we can do to encourage communities to enable people to enjoy film is desirable. So if the noble Lord would like to discuss anything further with me before further stages of the Bill, I would be delighted. I hope I have been able to reassure your Lordships, and that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, that is the first time I have been invited to go to see a movie with a member of Her Majesty’s Government. I will reflect carefully on that. We actually live quite close to each other and there are several local community film venues between our respective villages, so it is feasible to do that. We will think about that.

Film as we see it today is rarely controversial and rarely leads to public disorder but it was not always thus. Those of us who are interested in film history will know that one of the early screenings by the pioneers of cinema—a train arriving at the station in Lyon—resulted in the audience evacuating the hall so fast that it could not be considered safe, because they feared that the train was actually coming out of the screen at them and leapt out of the way to avoid imminent disaster. I do not think even 3D could possibly cope with that. But we should bear that in mind when thinking about what we are doing here.

I will read carefully what the Minister said and may take him up on his idea of a meeting. It is slightly irritating that we did not get sight of the draft licensing regulations. They may have been placed in the Library yesterday but it would have been useful to know that they were around; we could perhaps have saved a few of the questions I raised.

There are three points that I would like to make. First, it is now clear from the noble Lord’s response that the model here is the live music scene—I think he mentioned dances and music—where obviously an upper limit of 500 is perfectly understandable. I do not see this being appropriate in church or village halls or even parish halls, which are not ever going to be as large as that. If that is the restriction, I think the 500 is otiose but I will reflect on that.

Secondly, I still think there is a dichotomy in the way in which this is intended to apply. If it is restricted in operation to church halls, village halls and parish halls but can be run by profit-seeking bodies such as pubs or others, there is still a tension about what is exactly in mind here, but the gap for those who might be wishing to exploit that for profit may not be as bad as I originally feared.

Thirdly, the trick here is to limit the exercise of this to sites that are licensed in the full round of local authority licensing—including fire safety, public health and noise—but the event itself will not be specifically licensed, so that it can be done with a minimum of fuss. I still think there is a tension there about what happens when child protection issues are raised or there are questions about whether the films are certified under the BBFC or by the local authority. We are not quite sure about that. But that is not sufficient to hold back discussions today and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, Clause 59 mandates the Secretary of State to carry out a review of the alternatives to criminal sanctions for non-payment of the TV licence fee. A television licence is required to watch all live, or nearly live, broadcast television content on any device in the UK. It has become popularly known as the BBC licence fee but that is of course a misnomer—it is a licence to receive a broadcast signal sufficient to be able to watch television or to listen to radio. Nevertheless, the BBC is tasked with collecting the licence fee. The function is subcontracted to a private company under the brand TV Licensing. Failure to have a TV licence is an offence under Section 363 of the Communications Act 2003, punishable by a fine. This clause specifies the timing of a review, which is to commence within three months of Royal Assent and to be completed within 12 months of it beginning. It specifies that a report must be presented before both Houses of Parliament and presented to the BBC Trust.

It is surely an irony beyond satire to have a clause in a deregulation Bill which duplicates what is already happening in the real world. On 9 September 2014, the Secretary of State for DCMS announced his intention to begin a review into TV licence enforcement, which will be independently led, on behalf of the Government, by David Perry QC. The objectives are in fact broader than this clause specifies. They are:

“To conduct a review into the enforcement regime for failure to have a TV Licence to … examine whether the sanctions for contravening this offence are appropriate, fair and whether the regime represents value for money for licence fee payers and tax payers; and … identify and assess options for amending the current enforcement regime, including those for decriminalisation of TV licensing offences, and whether these options would represent an improvement”,

based on certain key considerations.

Mr Perry has to,

“make recommendations to the Government by the end of June 2015”,

which is well within the timescale specified in the clause. He is charged with producing:

“A report setting out an assessment of the current and proposed enforcement regimes, key findings, conclusions and any other supporting information to be submitted to the Government by the end of June 2015”.

The Secretary of State is required to,

“lay this report before both Houses of Parliament and present it to the BBC Trust”.

These requirements are identical, in all but a few words, to the requirements specified in Clause 59. So what, precisely, is the purpose of this clause? It has been overtaken by events, is not required and should be excised forthwith. I look forward to the Government agreeing with me that this clause should not stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, at Commons Committee stage, the Government supported the amendments tabled by the honourable member for North West Leicestershire. Clause 59 imposes a duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that a review of the TV licensing enforcement regime is carried out—as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, mentioned. This review will identify whether the current enforcement regime is appropriate and proportionate. The review will also ensure that there is a strong, evidence-based case for any potential changes to the TV licensing enforcement regime.

The findings of the review—which has already started—will be completed by June next year and should be considered in the context of the charter review. It will be for the Government of the day to take forward any further actions as they see fit. The current Government are very clear that the review of the licensing enforcement regime is a high priority. Hence, we have taken the decision to commence the review this autumn, in advance of Royal Assent.

If there is potentially an issue with the current regime, it can be of benefit to no one to delay the review or to prevent its findings informing any required change to the existing system. Our overriding aim is to ensure that the system is appropriate, proportionate and fair and that it represents the best value for money for licence fee payers and taxpayers. There was significant support for both of the TV licensing clauses in the earlier stages of this Bill in the other place. We believe that the firm commitments set out by the Government at that time must be honoured, particularly given that strong cross-party support. For that reason, we would not seek to remove the review clause from the Bill.

The current review has clearly defined terms of reference and, although there are no guarantees over decisions that any future Administration may seek to make in this area, particularly if they were minded to go against the will of Parliament as demonstrated in the strong support for these clauses, we do not believe that there should be any delay to the review. However, we think that the retention of Clause 59 ensures that at the absolute latest the review must be completed within a year of having begun. This duty will apply to the future Government and provides a crucial backstop to ensure that this important piece of work completes within the charter review period. That is why, although the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made a very interesting point about the Deregulation Bill and I am sure that he will pull my leg about it, the Government believe that this clause should stand part of the Bill. As I have said, strong views were expressed in the other place that we think are important. This provides some backstop to the work of the review. That is why I very much hope that Clause 59 will stand part of the Bill.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate. On occasions it may have strayed to the merits of the BBC rather than the precise clause and amendment in question. But there is no harm in that because, as we all acknowledge, the BBC does extraordinarily good work across a range of issues of which our country can be extremely proud.

The amendment seeks to apply timing constraints to the implementation of any potential—I emphasise that they are potential—changes to the enforcement regime that underpins TV licensing offences. The Government have been very clear on the importance of these issues and of considering the efficacy, proportionality and fairness of the current regime. The amendments concerning TV licensing enforcement, as noble Lords will recall, received significant support, across all parties, in the other place.

As has been mentioned, the Secretary of State announced in September that the review of the regime would be commencing this autumn, and the terms of reference for the review were published and laid in the Libraries of both Houses on 21 October. The terms of reference clearly define the scope of this work. A review will be conducted into the enforcement regime for failure to have a TV licence, examining whether the sanctions are appropriate, fair and represent value for money, and identifying and assessing options for amending the current enforcement regime. It will not consider or assess the licence fee itself or broader issues or options for the future funding of the BBC.

As has been referred to by noble Lords, the review of TV licence enforcement will be led by an independent lead reviewer, David Perry QC. It will begin taking evidence this autumn, and Mr Perry will submit a report making recommendations to the Government by the end of June next year. The enforcement review will start gathering views and data this autumn and, as noble Lords would rightly expect, any findings and recommendations will be based on the best possible evidence.

These findings will then be presented to the Government. The Government have been clear that the findings of the review should be considered in the context of the charter review process, which will not begin until the next Parliament. The BBC charter review is the point at which the Government can consider all aspects of the BBC. As has been mentioned, the current charter runs out on 31 December 2016.

I emphasise that if the existing regime needs to be improved—we should make no presumptions about this until Mr Perry’s review has been able to complete its work and to report findings to the Government of the time—surely it does not make sense to apply any constraints that could hinder moving to a new enforcement regime; nor would any such constraint represent the best approach for licence fee payers, or the courts system. Having said that, and in light of the enforcement review now being in its preliminary stages, I must stress again that the Government are keeping an entirely open mind and look forward to the findings of the review, without any preconceptions about whether or when changes need to be made. It is right that the Government of the day must be free to consider the report when it completes in June 2015 and be able to act without unnecessary limitations at that point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, mentioned Henry VIII clauses. If there were any changes to an enforcement regime under this clause, it would be afforded proper scrutiny in this House, as regulations would be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. The noble Baroness and, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, referred to the impact on the revenue of the BBC should decriminalisation go ahead and result in reductions in BBC income. Any impact on BBC services will be examined in the review. I can of course make no assumptions as to the outcome of the review. We obviously want an open process which considers all options available to us and delivers for the licence fee payer. All those points clearly will need to be borne in mind.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

On the record, will the Minister be clear about my final question? I thought I heard him say that he felt that the outcome of the report should feed into the charter and licence review. In his current speech, he has clearly said that he does not wish to see the Government constrained in any way as to the timing of any changes, if there are any changes. Does that not fly directly against the commitment given when the 2010 licence fee settlement was signed?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I do not believe that it does. The Government obviously want to be in a position after the report to consider those matters. I have already said that those matters will play a part in the considerations of the charter review but we need to consider what the QC brings forward in his report. I do not think that it conflicts.

We believe that it would be inappropriate to apply a constraint to the timing of implementation of any potential changes to the existing regime and that it would be unnecessarily restrictive to inhibit any potential future changes to the enforcement regime, should the findings of the review lead the Government of the time to be minded to make them through specifying a date before which any change could be implemented. I emphasise that this is about a review of the enforcement. We make no presumptions about the possible outcome or findings of the review. As I have said, the Government have stated that the review findings will be considered in the broader context of the charter review. After June 2015, these matters will take some time but we do not think that there should be an artificial limitation on timing. On that basis, and with the reassurance that they are to be considered in the broader context of the review charter, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am not as well briefed as my noble friend Lord Macdonald, but it is also true that the Digital Economy Act suffered from similar problems, which have not allowed it to emerge from the purdah in which it has been placed.

As I was trying to explain before I was accused of being too craven towards the Minister, which is a very unlikely position for me to be in, if a review is already ongoing then we should at least do the decent thing and wait for that. I think that the review will be forthcoming and give us the results.

I still worry about whether we are being told the whole story about this. The noble Lord, Lord Grade, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and other noble Lords have suggested that we could expect savings from this area; figures of about £100 million have been mentioned. If that were reinvested in British original content, that must be a good thing—there is no question about that—but what exactly would we see for it? Where has anybody specified in detail what that would be? It would be helpful to have some knowledge of that. Would it be more children’s programming or regional programming, better local news or better investigative work? We do not see quite so much of that as we used to on the commercial channels, and they have PSB ratings and should therefore perhaps be expected to move up to the mark. They need to be a bit more forward about that. I say this because, in September, media analysts at the Bank of America said on this issue that an extra £100 million of revenue for ITV could add about 15% to profits and could be worth 40p a share. I am not saying that that is what is driving this issue, but we might wish to bear it in mind.

I am sure that this issue needs to be resolved. We need a review, which I think has started. It is not right simply to put down an amendment at this stage. We should do this in a proper process, and I hope that the Government will push ahead with their review.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his amendment, because it has enabled a fascinating debate, the basis of which, I think, is that we all care very much about the creative industries and the public service broadcasting channels. They are of enormous importance to our national life, and there is so much to be done in terms of the economic benefit that they bring to our nation. So the Government come to this with that very much in mind.

Section 73 permits the retransmission on cable of the main public service broadcast channels—it is important to say to my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond that Section 73 applies only to cable and not to satellite platforms. The effect of it is that public service broadcasters are not able to charge cable operators for retransmission of their services.

Section 73 is part of a much wider framework that supports the availability of TV and investment in television programming in our country. A variety of rules and regulations affect the production, availability and the ease of discovery of PSB programming and its relationship with the different platforms—cable, satellite and digital terrestrial television—that carry it. These include the obligations on PSBs to offer their content to all relevant platforms, the rules governing payments by broadcasters for “technical platform services” and the powers for regulators to compel these services to carry PSB content, as well as Section 73. This is an area where many competing interests are at large and must be balanced; namely, those of broadcasters, platforms and, of course, viewers. The Government believe therefore that we should not abolish Section 73 without exploring these interactions within the wider framework of regulation that impacts the balance of payments between platforms and PSBs. That is precisely the approach the Government propose to take.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ford, referred to the Culture Secretary, who has already announced that the Government are going to look at whether the time is right to remove Section 73 of the Copyright, Design and Patents Act, which could allow PSBs to invest more in high-quality content. We believe that, rather than doing so in isolation, we will look at this in the wider context. I am very conscious that now when I think of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, I must think of “But”. I know that noble Lords would like the Government to accept this amendment, but we think that it is not sensible to do so in isolation. More work needs to be done and we will examine the framework of regulation that governs the balance of payments between broadcasters and platforms. The Government will examine whether the amount of regulation around these transactions is really necessary.

I should perhaps say to my noble friend Lord Grade that my understanding is that the Government are wholly satisfied that this section is consistent with EU law, but I do not think that I can say much more than that at this moment. A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, my noble friend Lord Deben and, in particular, my noble friend Lord Stoneham mentioned the Government’s intentions. They intend to consult by early next year on a proposed approach to Section 73 within the broader framework of the balance of payments debate. We think that that is the right way, given the fact that this matter has complexity. It is not as straightforward as just saying, “Away with this section”. There are intricacies and we need to look carefully at the impact on regulation relating to the must-offer obligations of the PSBs and the must-carry requirements on pay-TV platforms. That is the position and we want to get it right.

I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, will add another category to his “But” point, but it is for those reasons that I hope that noble Lords will feel that work is about to be put in hand on this area. The Culture Secretary and the Government are serious about ensuring that the work is thoroughly and properly done. For those reasons, I would ask my noble friend if he is prepared to withdraw his amendment.

Olympics 2016

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 10th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend raises the issue of team sports and clearly we want all sports to have as many opportunities as possible—my noble friend may be thinking of basketball in particular. That has enormous potential to reach young people and we want it to grow in the country. That is why Sport England in particular is investing a great deal of money. Over the funding cycle about £10 million will go into basketball. We want teams to succeed but they need to be in a position to win Olympic medals, which basketball is not at the moment. While it is not in a position to win medals it is not in the Rio funding scheme.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, the no-compromise approach has winners and has done very well but it also has losers. Basketball has had its £7 million grant from UK Sport cancelled and yet, as the Minister said, it is hugely popular, with 70% of participants aged under 25 and more than 50% of those who play the game coming from BME communities. What can they do now? The Minister mentioned Sport England but its contribution is £1.2 million, hardly making up the gap to £7 million.

Sport: Funding

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I very much hope for and look to a position where all children of all backgrounds have the same opportunities in sport. That is why, as I said, that the Government are investing £1.1 billion over the next four years in youth and community sport. It is precisely why we need to encourage schools to ensure—as they are required to do by law—that children have as much sporting opportunity as possible. All of that needs to be done.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, while I must congratulate UK Sport on the work it did in the run-up to the Olympics, there were some problems that have been mentioned already. Team sports have not done as well and there is real concern about the churn caused by the annual review of that programme. Could the Minister confirm that it is the intention of UK Sport to have changes in place after the Rio Olympics? Could he not try to persuade it to ensure that any changes that it recommends are done in time, so that we could have even more success in 2016?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the door is always open to all Olympic and Paralympic sports to come through the system. I understand what the noble Lord said about the annual review, but it is important, if we have the no-compromise position and philosophy in place, that they are adhered to. It is very important that we have as much opportunity as possible for successes in Rio. The funding arrangements that we have in place for Rio will remain, and those for the Olympics in Tokyo are also very strong.

Arts: Lottery Funding

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Thursday 10th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend’s question is timely, because the Chancellor granted an extra £20 million to cathedrals around the country, mindful particularly of the part that they will play in the commemorations of the First World War. I endorse what my noble friend has said. The buildings to which he referred are some of our most ancient treasures; they need to be helped to remain in good state.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, may we go back to the point in the original Question about the principle of additionality? I am sure that the Minister is aware of the Statement made by the Secretary of State in the other place only a few days ago. He said:

“The principle of additionality is very important and the distributors must adhere to it all times”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/7/14; col. 1057.]

Given that, can the Minister explain to your Lordships’ House why 102 companies now receiving grant in aid from Arts Council England, which in previous years were entirely funded by grant in aid, are now to be funded from the lottery?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this is an area on which the Arts Council has been reflecting in particular, and of course it is required to report on adherence to the principle of additionality. One of the key points is that lottery funding for the years 2012 to 2015 has gone towards a specific purpose: touring, and working with children and young people. That is why Arts Council England has announced that these significant elements—of touring and of specific organisations working with children and young people—will be wholly funded through the lottery from 2015 to 2018.

BBC Licence Fee: Non-payment

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, in the review, the timing of any such change is crucial. The potential impacts on licence fee payers, the court system, the BBC and businesses must be considered. The review will be thorough. Clearly, it is very important that we achieve the best outcome for licence fee payers, particularly, as my noble friend said, those on lower incomes.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, the process we are talking about is contained in a Bill that has yet to appear in your Lordships’ House. Therefore, to some extent, we may be prejudging the final outcome. Nevertheless, as the Minister said, there is a duty, as the Bill is currently constituted, for the Secretary of State to hold a review. Since the review may report before the BBC charter review takes place, can the Minister confirm that no decision will be taken until after the licence and charter have been decided?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the BBC charter review is the point at which the Government can consider all aspects of the BBC, including its funding. Indeed, the Government have yet to set out the timing, process and scope of the charter review. The review which would be part of the Deregulation Bill will be part of that process.

Film Industry

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 31st March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the key feature, and why it has been such a successful sector, is the mix of both commercial and public sector broadcasters. I had a meeting last week with Channel 4. I was very impressed with its encouraging of apprenticeships with 4Talent and, indeed, with the BBC and its apprenticeship schemes. All of this is part of a mix in this sector, all of which is vital for our prosperity.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former director of the British Film Institute. Given that the BFI cannot use lottery funds for its own activities, how does the Minister square what he has just said about the British film industry and support that the BFI gives with the recent 10% cut in the BFI’s budget, when other arts bodies are absorbing only a 5% cut?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the reduction that the noble Lord mentioned is actually in line with the average across government. However, in terms of the BFI and what it is doing, I think it is an example of perhaps doing very well with a little less. In addition, the BFI Player, with a further investment, is all part of the advances in innovation. Certainly the initiatives that BFI is undertaking are very interesting and will help enormously to widen audiences.

Children: Online Safety

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am very much aware of what the noble Lord said and, indeed, of the article. Both suicide and self-harm are taken extremely seriously. The Government are committed to working with the internet industry to keep young people safe online and to promote positive support for people who are at a suicidal point. We are very concerned that, in dealing with the websites relating to suicide and self-harm, which are so appalling, we do not stop young people and others going to sites that would help them.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have made very good progress with the mobile sector and we hope that they will be able to make similar progress with the wi-fi providers. However, is not the problem that, with 90% coverage, there is still 10% which is not covered, and that 10% involves a very large number of companies. That perhaps explains why Chester Cathedral had to close down its wi-fi operation last year, and only last month Canterbury Cathedral was also in a situation where open access was available. These matters are tricky and I would not want an instant response. The Bishops are shaking hands—that is historic; a deal has been made on this very day. However, the question for the Minister is: if this voluntary arrangement does not work, does statutory provision provide the answer?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As I think the Prime Minister has said, we will look at all situations as necessary. The primary objective of all this is to ensure that children and vulnerable people are safe. We have gone down the self-regulatory route because we think that it is the most adaptable. It is the way in which we can act most speedily to protect the very people whom we want to protect.

Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 18th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, we are slightly surprised to be revisiting this issue today. Although it is very important, it was discussed in some detail on Report, so we have to be impressed by the way the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, has convinced the Public Bill Office that it was right that he should be allowed to do so. He is clearly someone we shall have to listen to in the future if we want to have our evil way. However, as he has just said, there was a fair amount of confusion at the time, with letters from the Minister crossing with interviews and public statements by the Secretary of State. It is obviously important therefore to use this opportunity to try to tease out the issues that are in play here, and in particular what dates we are actually talking about.

The fact that the issue is coming back to the House at this stage says something important about our concerns about the way our “gambling culture” is developing and its potential to impoverish and cause irreparable social damage to the most vulnerable people in the country. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, raised the question of why the Bill does not deal with the ills caused by gambling in her intervention on the first amendment, and she has just spoken again on the same point. I agree with her that this is something that we might have to look at again when we consider the Consumer Rights Bill, which is due to come to this House in June.

While gambling may not bring down dilettante Dukes, it certainly does affect others. Your Lordships’ House heard in Committee from several noble Lords who had been most grievously affected in this regard. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, sponsored a meeting at which ordinary people who had been addicted to gambling spoke movingly about their experiences and the need for the Government to take action in regard to their concerns. As we have heard, there was a report on the specific point about the watershed for gambling advertising and the spread of gambling more generally, including advertising for bingo, mentioned by my noble friend Lady Jones. I understand the position to be as follows, and I would be grateful if the Minister, when he comes to respond, could confirm it.

The relaxation of restrictions on gambling advertising that followed the implementation of the Gambling Act 2005 has led to a significantly greater volume of gambling advertising on TV and in other media. In addition, the gambling industry has been innovative and the existing voluntary codes that govern gambling advertising are now applied across a much changed gambling landscape. These technological developments have led to intense competition in remote gambling advertising which has coincided with an increase in complaints and concerns, as I have already mentioned. On Report, the Minister explained that the Government have been monitoring the impact of these developments and considering whether the current controls remain adequate across remote gambling advertising and other forms of online gaming activity, including online bingo.

The Minister went on to say that the Government have asked four bodies to do further work. First, the Remote Gambling Association will co-ordinate an industry-led review of the voluntary gambling codes and will come forward with any proposed revisions by the summer of this year. Secondly, the Committee of Advertising Practice and the Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice have committed to evaluate the findings of a new report by the Responsible Gambling Trust this month, and will examine the available evidence on gambling advertising and its relationship with problem gambling. We are told that the committees will publish their findings on completion of this work, which could lead to changes in the principal codes controlling gambling advertising, this time by autumn. Thirdly, the Advertising Standards Authority will undertake a review of enforcement action under the gambling rules, taking into account internal intelligence, complaints statistics and trends, to ensure that it is enforcing the rules proportionately and consistently. The ASA, we are told, will communicate the outcome by autumn this year. Finally, the Gambling Commission will consider what revisions might be necessary to the licence conditions and codes of practice to ensure that all gambling advertising continues to comply with the licensing objectives of the Gambling Act. Although this work is principally focused on ensuring that free bets and bonus offers are marketed in a fair and open way in the gambling industry, it will cover a wider range. I note that the last item had no date specified for its completion, and would be grateful if the Minister could specify in his reply when he expects the Gambling Commission to report on its review.

This is a complicated field, with lots of cross-cutting and interesting work going on, and the timings are slightly out of sync. It is therefore right that the noble Lord should press the Minister to come up with a clear statement about where exactly these timings are. When the Minister does that, perhaps he can also comment on a point that he made in the previous debate, when he said:

“The terms of reference for the reviews are currently being defined and will be made public by the spring”.

A shaft of sunlight just illuminated our gloomy surroundings here, so I gather that spring is on the way. But when exactly is spring, and could we please have these statements so that we can look at them?

On the question of dates and times, the Minister said:

“Any statutory regulations would be preceded by consultation”,

which is good. He also said that the Government,

“will consider the findings of the review before determining what further action may be necessary”—

I would be surprised if they did not—and,

“will confirm their position by the end of the year”,

which is perhaps another variation on “autumn” and “towards Christmas”. He said that he,

“will arrange for a summary of the findings of the reviews and the Government’s response to be placed in the Libraries of both Houses as soon as they are available but definitely by the end of this year”.—[Official Report, 4/3/14; col. 1297.]

The trope that is coming through is “by the end of the year”. We assume that is this year, although it would be helpful if we could have some clarity on that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, in her response to the debate on Report, welcomed the change in mood and position from the Secretary of State and the Minister over the past couple of months, welcomed the detail that the Minister had spelt out and, with some reservations, welcomed the commitments that the Minister gave in that debate. However, when she withdrew her amendment, she warned the Minister that,

“we will pursue the Government as regards the work that is taking place over the coming months and try to hold them to account for the commitments that they have given”.—[Official Report, 4/3/14; col.1298.]

He has been warned. I can sympathise with the wish of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, to see this all tightened up and nailed down. I hope the Minister can repeat the commitments he gave on Report and confirm that his understanding is that we will have action on this troubling issue by the end of this year, 2014, at the latest.

As this is the last time I shall speak on this Bill, I take the opportunity to thank the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, for the constructive and positive way in which we have been able to make improvements to this Bill during its time in your Lordships’ House. We also got a great deal of support from the Bill team. I thank them for their support, which has been of great assistance.

As I said at Second Reading, I suspect that this is not the last time we will need to turn our attention to gambling, not least because the gambling industry is changing so rapidly, but also because of growing concerns about problem gambling, which I have already mentioned. In addition, I think the noble Baroness, Lady Heyhoe Flint, and the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, who were both in their places a moment ago, made the point that we need to get a proper law in this country about match fixing. The Bills that we are talking about are about preventing problems in gambling and do not really go to the heart of one of the issues that is growing in importance across the country. There is evidence that match fixing is going on with a view to gain, which is something that we must act on. The laws that we currently have do not deal with this problem. We were not able to make changes in this rather tightly drawn Bill, but I think and hope that the arguments have been heard. If we do come back to it, it will at least be on the basis of a very much better understanding of the issues, which we have gained in our very good debates in recent months.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for discussing his amendment with me earlier today, which I certainly found helpful. As the noble Lord said, this amendment seeks to delay the commencement of the repeal of Section 331 of the Gambling Act 2005 until the Government have reported to Parliament on the outcome of ongoing reviews into gambling.

First, I will be very clear about this. Clause 2 of the Bill is not about liberalisation of remote gambling advertising. It is a regulatory measure, and I will explain to your Lordships why I believe it is very necessary. The effect of Clause 2 is that, for the first time, remote gambling operators based in EEA or white-list states will be able to advertise and offer remote gambling to British consumers only if they are regulated by the Gambling Commission. At present, remote gambling operators based in EEA or white-list countries may advertise and offer remote gambling to British consumers without the need for a remote operating licence from the Gambling Commission, regardless of the quality of their home regulation.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, has expressed concern about a potential increase in the overall volume of gambling advertising as a result of the Bill. I reassure noble Lords that the existing television scheduling restrictions will significantly limit the potential for any increase in the volume of advertising. As a consequence of the Bill, all gambling advertising will be subject to the regulatory rigour of the Gambling Commission and the Advertising Standards Authority, ensuring consistent standards across the piece. This is a significant development that will extend regulatory control over the type of advertising that may be shown in Great Britain.

As a result of the Bill, new gambling operators that wish to advertise in Britain will need to comply with the advertising codes of practice. These codes put in place strict controls in relation to gambling advertising and children: for example, advertisements must not appeal to, or include, children and young people and they must not glamorise gambling or suggest it as a solution to financial concerns. Advertisements that breach the code have to be amended or withdrawn. In addition, the Gambling Commission’s code of practice provides that operators must adhere to the advertising codes and ensure that all gambling advertising is undertaken in a socially responsible manner. Failure to take account of this can be used as evidence in criminal or civil proceedings, and may be taken into account by the commission in a review of the operator’s licence.

Indeed, earlier this month, the Advertising Standards Authority used powers under the advertising codes to take interim action against an operator following an unprecedented number of complaints. In this case, the Advertising Standards Authority judged that the advertisement may have been seriously prejudicial to the general public on the ground of the likely serious offence it may have caused. However, because the operator concerned is based outside Great Britain, the Advertising Standards Authority could apply its ruling only to national print media and not the operator’s website. Once operators are licensed under the new arrangements, regulatory action could be taken by the Gambling Commission.

To postpone commencement of the Bill until the end of this year, when the Government will be reporting on the outcome of ongoing advertising work, would delay the considerable benefits to consumers that the Bill will bring. It would undermine the achievement of the consumer protection purposes of the Bill, not just in respect of advertising but more widely. The noble Lords, Lord Browne and Lord Stevenson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, raised, quite rightly, the aspect of vulnerable people. The Bill requires operators to comply with Gambling Commission licence conditions specifically protecting children and vulnerable adults; for example, in relation to self-exclusion and other requirements to support consumers who experience problems. Having looked at this very thoroughly since my meeting with the noble Lord this morning, on reflection I believe that delay is simply not in the interests of British-based consumers.

I made it clear on Report, in reply to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, about the Government’s intent, that the review of the existing advertising arrangements is under way. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred rightly to the changing landscape that we have seen following the Gambling Act 2005. I confirm that the findings will be available in the autumn. This work will be taken forward by the Gambling Commission, the Advertising Standards Authority, the committees of advertising practice and the Remote Gambling Association. Clearly, it would be wrong to prejudge the outcome of the reviews, but I can assure noble Lords that they will be comprehensive and will seek to determine what changes might be necessary to ensure adequate protection.

Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for tabling his amendment, which seeks to ensure that spread betting operators who hold a remote gambling licence from the Gambling Commission are required to report suspicious betting patterns to both the regulator and sports governing bodies under licence condition 15.1. Your Lordships have heard that my noble friend has tabled an amendment on that issue.

First, I acknowledge the determination with which Members of both Houses have pursued this matter—and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, mentioned one of his colleagues in the other place. The point about our deliberations is that it has undoubtedly led to more speedy progress.

As I said in Grand Committee, the Government take the issue of ensuring the integrity of sport very seriously. People must be able to trust that the sport that they are watching is fair and uncorrupted by cheating. The effect of this Bill will be that this will apply to all operators who offer remote gambling in the British market, regardless of where they are based, and information is at the very heart of the detection and disruption of any such corruption by regulators and sports governing bodies. But the Government believe that the following two-pronged approach achieves the objectives that noble Lords seek. This approach will ensure greater consistency in how suspicious activity is reported, and in a way that can be effectively enforced.

First, the Gambling Commission will soon be publishing its revised licensing conditions and codes of practice, which will include a change to licensing condition 15.1. This will make it clearer that, when a sports spread betting firm holds an operating licence with the Gambling Commission for its fixed odds activity, it will be required to report suspicious activity arising in relation to its sports spread betting activity. The revised licensing conditions will be published by the end of this month, and I say to my noble friend Lady Heyhoe Flint that the revised 15.1 will take effect in June.

Secondly, noble Lords will be aware of the FCA’s commitment to issue guidance for sports spread betting operators. The guidance will be issued under FCA Rule 15.3.17, which relates to the types of fraud and irregularities that must be reported to the FCA. The guidance will make it clear that the fraud and irregularities that will need to be reported by sports spread betting firms include suspicious sports betting. The FCA is also in discussion with the firms to put in place a mechanism by which information received by the FCA can be notified to the Gambling Commission and the relevant sports governing body. The finer details of the guidance are in the process of being finalised with the individual firms. However, I should make it clear that the underlying FCA Rule 15.3.17 is in place now.

I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and my noble friend Lady Heyhoe Flint that where a spread betting firm does not have a Gambling Commission licence, it will be bound by the updated FCA guidance, which will, of course, be mandatory.

We believe that the approach we are taking will work and will facilitate the appropriate sharing of information —the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, particularly emphasised sharing of information, which is absolutely key to success—and it ensures that the licensing conditions, be it the expanded licence condition 15.1 adopted by the Gambling Commission, or the guidance issued by the FCA under the FCA rules, have a clear route back to the relevant regulator. Any failure to comply by an operator will be enforceable by the relevant regulator.

My noble friend Lady Heyhoe Flint asked a number of questions, seeking confirmation. As regards publishing the FCA’s guidance, as this is individual guidance it would not normally be made public. However, I will ask the two spread betting firms if they would be content to publish this individual guidance, once it is finalised. I should also mention that the first draft of the guidance was shared with the Gambling Commission, for its consideration and comment.

On best practice in information sharing—another point raised by my noble friend—I can confirm that the commission established the tripartite forum, involving betting operators and representatives of sports governing bodies. That forum continues to provide a space for debating these kinds of issues, which, again, is very important.

As regards future changes to the regulation of sports spread betting, I understand that there has been recent discussion between the FCA and the Gambling Commission as to whether the question of transfer needs to be revisited. Indeed, this matter remains very much alive. However, it is a very complex issue, and there was a deliberate decision at the time of the 2005 Act that it remain within the regulatory purview of the FCA as a financial services product. However, I can confirm that the mechanism for transferring the regulation from the FCA to the Gambling Commission is by amending the regulated activities order by statutory instrument. That issue was raised by my noble friend.

I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords that action has, and is being, taken on this important issue to ensure greater consistency in the way that suspicious activity is reported, and how this can achieved. The Government take this issue extremely seriously as the work currently going on around sports integrity and match fixing illustrates. We believe that the steps we are taking, and what noble Lords seek, is the right path. Indeed, we think that our approach goes somewhat further than what is sought in the amendments in so far as the new FCA guidance complementing an enhanced 15.1 provision is concerned. On that basis, I very much hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Heyhoe Flint, for her amendment and for speaking to it so excellently and, indeed, adding a number of questions which have provoked the Minister to take us further down this route, which makes us better understand the process that we are going through.

I also thank the Minister for acknowledging that this has been a co-operative team effort. He said that our deliberations had resulted in speedier progress. However, I think that they made the measure a bit better; I think he is being a bit mean in his praise. We were able to get together around some common themes that emerged as a result of the discussions on Second Reading and at the beginning of Committee, and, with others present today, we looked hard at what was being attempted here. In the sure and certain knowledge that gambling (licensing and advertising) Bills do not come before your Lordships’ House very often, we decided to try to hook a lift on one or two paragraphs in order to make improvements, which I hope will be long lasting and effective in terms of improving the situation for the sports governing bodies, the regulators and, indeed, of course, the consumers, who are, after all, what this is all about. That is my rant over.

I am not very experienced in matters to do with legislation, having been a mere three or four years in your Lordships’ House, but this is a model that we might try to export and use again in some future circumstances. I am certainly up for that. I am very pleased that the Minister was able to spell out in a bit more detail some of the additional regulatory framework that exists. It is important that the FCA and the Gambling Commission are in discussion. As mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Heyhoe Flint, there probably is a case for transfer of, if not all the functions, at least some of them because it seems to me that the regulatory functions relating to gambling will get more complex and will be challenged by the new technologies, and I am sure that the FCA has other issues on which to focus.

We will return to match fixing in later debates this evening so I will not delay the House further on that point. In the interim, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Broadcasting: Digital Radio

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 22nd January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am sure that what the noble Baroness has said is very much in the Government’s mind. I certainly recognise that many of the more elderly members of the population rely on the radio. There is also a great place for community radio, which is very popular, and if there were any consideration of switchover we would consider reserving part of the FM spectrum so that that local community radio could continue as long as was needed.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, in the Minister’s first response, he said that there were three targets for achieving this DAB rollout. Is there not a fourth, which is the question of how many new cars have digital radio fitted? According to the latest figures, something like 42% are now fitted with digital radio. Can the Minister tell us what plan there is to increase that number?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there is another objective: we need to work on cars. At the moment only one in 10 of our cars has digital, and it costs about £100 to convert them. This is one of the reasons why there has been a reflection that this needs to be consumer-led rather than what I would call Government-imposed. A number of the points that were announced on 16 December are precisely to encourage and help with the conversion. The Digital Radio Action Plan, including working with the motor industry and indeed with the DVLA and the DVSA, is all about helping consumers to understand how they can get the best deal.

Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My noble friend Lord Lipsey has been strong in keeping us off the statistics, but whatever the figure actually is, there is no doubt about the testimony of the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, for which I thank him very much. It brought a measure of realism into our debate. There is a problem here, and I am sure that what has been said in this Room will be picked up by the Minister and we will hear how he intends to take that forward.

It is interesting that some of the territories which are currently hosting a number of the operators who offer gambling services within the UK from without our territorial borders—the so-called whitelist—have procedures and systems in place which at least permit what is being suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Browne. There are some sensible things in that. It is therefore, by deduction, a bit strange that the Bill does not refer to it at all. When the Minister comes to respond, can he tell us the reason for that? Is it a general sense of hopelessness, as expressed by the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland? Is it more a general feeling that the nanny state should not be taking on these burdens through its appointed agency, the Gambling Commission? If either of those two is correct, I do not think that it meets the challenge laid down by those who have said that this is an addiction which needs some sort of approach, and we need as a sensible and responsible society to take into account those who are calling for help and must not let them down.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his amendment.

As your Lordships have reflected, problem gambling does serious harm, not only to an individual, but also to their friends and family, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, highlighted so strongly. As I said at Second Reading, GamCare has calculated that every problem gambler costs the state £8,000 every year, and we must never forget the distress and upset this causes to wider family members. That is why the Gambling Commission’s licensing conditions require operators to make a commitment to the identification and treatment of problem gamblers, and set out how operators will contribute to this. The Gambling Commission’s licence conditions and codes of practice already include the requirement for each remote licensee to have, and to put into effect, procedures for self-exclusion, which must include a register of those excluded with appropriate records, and the removal of access from those self-excluded persons found to have gambled or to have attempted to gamble on the facilities. This recognises that self-exclusion is an important tool for those individuals who have already recognised that they have an issue with their gambling and wish to address it.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, noted at Second Reading, in principle the software exists to set up a central self-exclusion scheme, but there are wide ranges of practical and legal issues to be resolved. Those complexities include issues such as the compatibility of different operator systems for registering players; the range of self-exclusion options offered by different operators, which may vary in the length of time and range of activities covered; and how to ensure the wrong people are not prevented from gambling or “self-excluded” by third parties, not by themselves. Any comprehensive centralised system would require a trusted third party to run the central list and oversee the scheme.

The first step to resolving these complexities and achieving a system for self-exclusion is the enactment of this Bill, which will bring operators within the remit of the Gambling Commission. It will give the Gambling Commission direct access to information from operators to assess the most effective way of achieving a system for self-exclusion.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, rightly wanted to know the Government’s view. Work is under way on reviewing the effectiveness of self-exclusion as a tool for managing problem gambling. The Gambling Commission asked its expert advisory body, the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board, to look at the effectiveness of self-exclusion as a tool and how it could be improved. Self-exclusion also forms part of the Responsible Gambling Trust’s work programme, and they are due to report their findings in March. Further steps will be developed once these findings have been considered and the remote operators are brought within the regulatory oversight of the Gambling Commission. The Remote Gambling Association also convened an industry meeting in November 2013, and this will be contributing to the process. What is more—and this is crucial to the amendment—under the Gambling Act 2005 a centralised self-exclusion system can be achieved in licensing conditions and does not require further primary legislation. For that reason, although I entirely understand the force of arguments about problem gambling and our mutual desire to assist as much as possible, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Ticket Reselling

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I very much hope that England will win the last two matches and make it 3-2. The important thing we need to remember is that very often people buy tickets and wish to have a secondary sale because someone cannot go or their team does not win into the quarter-finals or semi-finals, so there are practical difficulties. When a Select Committee looked at this in detail, it concluded that regulation was not the way to achieve what we want.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I return to the original Question. The report from Operation Podium makes it very clear that ticket crime has links to other serious and organised crimes, that criminal networks benefit from ticket fraud by about £40 million per year and that the proceeds are very rarely recovered. Given that the recommendation from Operation Podium was that consideration must be given to introducing legislation to govern the unauthorised sale of event tickets, why are the Government not prepared to move on this?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is not a case of the Government not wanting to move on the situation; it is that we have concluded, as did the previous Government and Select Committees, that there is a better way of resolving this. The noble Lord mentioned fraud, but the Fraud Act 2006 is readily available. Local authorities have by-laws already in existence, and those are precisely the by-laws that we need event organisers and the police to work within in conjunction with local authorities.

Culture: Art House Cinemas

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 4th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I entirely understand and, indeed, sympathise with the noble Earl’s concerns, but responsibility for regulating mergers falls to the independent competition authority. The Competition Commission has decided that Cineworld, having bought the Picturehouse chain, should sell one of its cinemas in a number of towns. I know that the BFI has already communicated its concerns to the commission, and it is open to concerned parties to apply for a review of the decision to the commission appeal tribunal.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

The question actually asked was whether the Government will take up this case because it is a grievous and terrible thing to contemplate the loss of three such picture houses. Will the Minister answer the question: will the Government take up with the Competition Commission their concerns, as so adequately expressed by the Minister?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have to repeat to the noble Lord that the Competition Commission is an independent body. The Office of Fair Trading has asked the Competition Commission to look into the matter. Although there is concern and sympathy from many in government, this is now a matter for the Competition Commission, having been instructed by the Office of Fair Trading.

Internet: Regulation

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, could the noble Lord explain to us, given that so much news is now transmitted on the internet, what the Prime Minister meant yesterday when he called on the Guardian and other newspapers to show social responsibility? How does that square with free speech?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

There is a balance in all these things. Free speech is extremely important. It is—I have mentioned this before—something that we very much treasure. At the same time, it must be incumbent on us all, particularly in security matters, to be extremely cautious.

Public Bodies (Abolition of the Registrar of Public Lending Right) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 8th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Government are proposing to use the powers in the Public Bodies Act 2011 to abolish the registrar and transfer its public lending right functions to the British Library. Both the registrar and the British Library are non-departmental public bodies of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

The Public Bodies Act 2011, which received Royal Assent in December of that year, is the legislative vehicle resulting from a 2010 government-wide review of all public bodies. Its overriding aims are to increase transparency and accountability, cut out duplication of activity and discontinue unnecessary activities. In conducting individual reviews of their own public bodies, departments were asked first to address the overarching question of whether a body needed to exist and whether its functions needed to be carried out at all and, following from this, whether it met specific tests that would justify its retention.

The department was of the view that the public lending right functions must be maintained as they are required by law, but that it was not necessary for the registrar to be retained as a stand-alone public body in order to carry out those functions. Therefore, options for a suitable, and more efficient and economical, home were explored.

Perhaps I may give some brief background on the public lending right scheme and the public body managing it, formally known as the Registrar of Public Lending Right. The position of registrar was established by the Public Lending Right Act 1979, which gave authors a legal right to receive payment for the free lending of their books by public libraries. Under the 1979 Act, funding is provided by central government, and payments are made to eligible authors and other rights holders in accordance with how often their books are lent out from a sample of UK public libraries. The registrar is a corporation sole and is appointed by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to maintain a register of eligible rights holders and books, and to supervise the administration of the scheme. Around 23,000 rights holders receive a public lending right payment each year, up to a maximum of £6,600.

The registrar receives grant in aid from the department to fund both the administration costs and the payments to authors. Given the current economic climate, the decision was taken in October 2010 to reduce the resource grant-in-aid budget for public lending right by 15% in real terms over the spending period from April 2011 to April 2015, and the proportion of grant in aid used to administer the scheme was capped at £756,000 a year. With the registrar currently operating at near maximum efficiency, and given the limitations in efficiency savings that a body of its kind could make, this necessitated some radical thinking in order for the public lending right scheme to operate within its new budget while minimising the effect of the reduction in funding on authors.

Transfer of the public lending right functions to the British Library emerged as the preferred option because it fulfils the Government’s aims of maximising the efficiency, economy and effectiveness of the public lending right scheme and reducing the number of public bodies. The transfer offers greater efficiency savings than are achievable by a stand-alone body the size of the PLR. The transfer is expected to save £750,000 in real terms over 10 years and therefore maximises the proportion of available grant in aid which could be allocated to authors.

This low-risk transfer will retain the operation and workforce in Stockton-on-Tees, which is working well at present and is highly valued by respondents to the consultation, and the increased efficiency and economy of the scheme will benefit PLR rights holders. Furthermore, the transfer would not only ensure continuity of efficient systems and processes but would develop a more solid infrastructure, which the larger organisation enables.

Subject to the approval of Parliament, it is expected that the abolition of the registrar and transfer to the British Library will take effect on 1 October 2013. The current registrar will be contracted by the British Library from the transfer date for an appropriate period of time, likely to be until March 2015, to ensure a smooth transition and successful transfer of knowledge.

I turn now to the scrutiny given to this order, which was laid before Parliament on 9 May. Orders under the Public Bodies Act have a minimum 40-day scrutiny period, with a committee of either House able to extend this to 60 days if that is felt necessary. This order has been scrutinised by several Select Committees: in your Lordships’ House by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee; in another place by the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee; and collectively by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. None of these triggered the optional 60-day extended scrutiny period.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee reported on this order on 23 May. The committee was satisfied that the order met the four tests set out in the Public Bodies Act, noting in particular the strong case of increasing economy. The Act states that a Minister may make an order,

“only if the Minister considers that the order serves the purpose of improving the exercise of public functions”,

having regard to: securing accountability to Ministers, which the order achieves by amending the British Library Act 1972 to stipulate that its annual report must include a report on the PLR scheme; efficiency, which the order achieves by enabling the more efficient running of the PLR scheme through a larger non-departmental public body, with all the advantages of shared back-office services and economies of scale; effectiveness, which will be maintained as authors will continue to receive the same high-quality service already provided by the PLR office; and economy, with the savings in running costs to maximise the proportion of grant in aid available for distribution as PLR payments.

The committee recommended that the department should carry out a review of the effectiveness of the post-transfer arrangements in spring 2016; that is, within a year of the end of the transition period. The department acknowledges the conclusions of the committee and has taken on board the views expressed; in particular, it agrees with the recommendation to review the transfer in 2016.

The department remains committed to the public lending right scheme, which is a source of income for many authors and other rights holders. The value that the Government place on the PLR scheme was evident in the recent announcement that the scheme will be extended to cover on-site loans of e-books and audiobooks, with effect for loans from July 2014. PLR will continue to evolve in line with technological advances in public libraries, and the department is committed to ensuring that the scheme continues to be managed as efficiently and economically as possible, for the benefit of authors.

In challenging economic circumstances, the transfer offers the best means of safeguarding the future of the scheme and maximising the proportion of available grant in aid to be distributed to authors, thereby supporting and rewarding their creativity at the same time as offering better value for money to the taxpayer. Therefore, it is right that the functions should be transferred to the British Library, and I commend this draft order to the Committee.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I want to start where the Minister finished, by welcoming the extension of the PLR to e-books and audiobooks on-site. This was subject to much discussion in the Chamber a few weeks ago, when the Minister was not able to give us an assurance one way or another, but, since then, other events have intervened. The Chancellor’s announcement in the recent spending review was very welcome. However, I note that this applies only to e-books and audiobooks borrowed on-site. It still leaves open the question of how the PLR is to be extended—if, indeed, it is to be extended—to those borrowed through the web or alternative ways yet to be discovered. Given the way in which the technology is moving, e-books will not be requested in terms of their physical presence in the library. Perhaps the Minister could respond to that when he sums up this debate.

I would also like to praise the way in which the department has gone about this operation. It has been a long time since I have read such a good consultation exercise. I am constantly coming up against them in secondary legislation debates, where they are sometimes somewhat perfunctory in approach. This seemed to be a genuine consultation which offered real alternatives and suggested possibilities available for those who wished to consult. It is a model of its type. The department should be very pleased that it has been bold enough to try to take this all the way out and to take responsibility for the answers that came back.

The problem with a consultation as open as this is that it might get answers back that, perhaps, the department was not looking for. It is therefore not altogether surprising to discover that nearly 95%, I think, of those who responded were against what the department was proposing. Given that the department consulted authors and others interested in the written word, the responses were somewhat well written, rather redolent of deeper and other worries, and must have made rather uncomfortable box reading for the Minister when he came to review them. Not surprisingly, the department has found a way of eliding any real criticism from approaching its proposed solution. It will not take account of the consultation or, indeed, the very singular report that came in from those who were consulted. I am sorry about that. It is quite clear that this measure does not command support among those who were consulted.

That raises the question of why this is being done. Is it because the department wants to reduce the number of its bodies? I find that rather surprising because it was clear throughout both the consultation exercise and, indeed, the reports of the various committees of your Lordships’ House and the other place that have looked at this, that the registrar does a good job and has done it with considerable economy. There are no apparent suggestions that the registrar is at fault in any of the ways in which it is going about its job. The registrar is regarded as a friend of the authors and seems to have good relationships also with the public libraries that have to come up with the funding as a result of the lending and to work with a very small staff and a very inexpensive foundation in Stockport. The registrar seems to be doing a very good job indeed.

It is relevant that the jobs have been located to a relatively poor area of the country, and it is good that there are jobs of this high calibre there involved in such good activity. It is therefore a bit surprising that the department does not recognise that, by making this change, we are also introducing some risk about whether those jobs will continue. The real essence of what is requested at the heart of this proposal is that costs be reduced rather than that the number of bodies be reduced, because the transfer is actually being made to the British Library. Although it looks as though we are losing one body and simply absorbing it into another, it is clearly a different function which must be added on to the existing work of the British Library. To some extent, therefore, there is not really a reduction in its activity or the management spread in which it will be involved.

On the cost argument, which I presume has been part of this, there will also be costs in the British Library. The change seems to be financed by the reduction of one post—that is, the loss of the registrar post. Indeed, the whole operation seems to revolve around the fact that the cost of that post will no longer be counted against departmental spend. Of course, when the Minister introduced this, he made clear that it was now unlikely to result in savings until March 2015, which perhaps cuts into the overall savings that have been requested. Several respondents and both committees which have looked at this have pointed out that the existing provision in the registrar’s office is extremely efficient. When the House of Commons reviewed this in May, it said:

“So far the office of the Registrar has been successful in keeping its operating costs below the budget cap of £756,000 per annum which was set at the last comprehensive spending review. Operating costs in 2011/12 represented 11.6% of the PLR payments … made to authors”.

It goes on to say:

“The Registrar has identified savings that will bring annual running costs down further … from 2014/15 onwards”,

which seems to be well within the 15% real-terms reduction that was requested by the department.

Press Regulation

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

We are in the position we are because wrongdoing took place, and we have had to decide how best to ensure that this does not happen again. That is why the cross-party royal charter commands the support of all the political parties. Indeed, it is why at PMQs today, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made very clear his views on the PressBoF proposal and his continuing support for the cross-party royal charter.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, when the noble Lord answered the question on Monday, he said,

“it is not appropriate for the Privy Council to consider more than one royal charter at a time on the same issue”.—[Official Report, 1/7/13; col. 976.]

Why is the Privy Council uniquely incapable of multitasking? I bet it is a man who is running it. Yes it is—it is the Deputy Prime Minister.

As I am sure noble Lords are aware, there are about 500 members of the full council. I bet there are more than enough in the Chamber this afternoon. Indeed, the noble Lord who asked the question is a member of the Privy Council, as are all the others sitting next to him. We could have a meeting now in the Moses Room. Could the Minister agree that this would be a desirable thing to do so that we can begin to do what the victims want and what Parliament has decided?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Lord makes some very tempting suggestions but there is going to be an update by the Secretary of State very shortly—although I am not sure what “very shortly” means. I hope that it will be helpful to your Lordships. Clearly, we all want to make progress.

Science and Heritage: S&T Committee Report

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 4th February 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Sharp of Guildford for initiating this debate and I pay tribute to members of the committee for their continued focus on this important area, without which advances in science heritage would certainly not have been as extensive as they have been. I say to my noble friend Lady Sharp that this is a far from obscure area. It is in no small part due to the work of the committee and the reports it has produced that the crucial link between heritage and science is now better recognised and better understood. What impeccable timing today for the confirmation that it is Richard III, which was also referred to, and what advances have been made.

It was indeed as a direct response to the committee’s first report in 2006 that the Arts and Humanities Research Council and the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council established the science and heritage programme at University College London. It is because science requires specialist expertise that DCMS relies on the skills and talents of scientists within arm’s-length bodies. They develop and apply heritage science techniques across a wide range of fields.

The Government support the work of DCMS’s arm’s-length bodies with a remit for heritage and cultural preservation and the wider heritage community, including the national heritage science forum and Research Councils UK, in their work to disseminate good practice, to collaborate across institutions, to increase capacity across the community, to continue efforts to digitise our cultural heritage and to increase public engagement with heritage science. We will offer support where appropriate. The responsibility on the DCMS’s arm’s-length bodies to care for collections and heritage assets is enshrined through robust governance mechanisms. It is set out clearly in the funding agreements as a condition of government funding, and the protection of heritage is included in the governing legislation of the national museums and the wider heritage sector.

DCMS funding supports heritage science across its bodies, be it the digitisation of the British Film Institute’s collection, the high-tech storage facility for the British Library’s newspaper collection in Boston Spa, or the state-of-the-art conservation and science centre in the new British Museum development. I make particular mention of English Heritage as the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, has given such a powerful commentary on its work. However, I am sure she would agree that there are 23 further such bodies under DCMS, all immensely important in the work that they do for cultural heritage.

Turning to the committee’s report, the first recommendation of your Lordships was on research councils. The Government welcome the priority that the Arts and Humanities Research Council and the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council have given to heritage. I am mindful of what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, said about difficult times. I replay to him that the Government have demonstrated our strong commitment to science and research by protecting its programme budget within BIS with a flat-cash, ring-fenced settlement of £4.6 billion per annum over this spending review period. Inflation may be a factor, but it is not huge as I remember inflation in other times.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I should like to rerun those figures for the Minister. Inflation has been running at between 2.5% and 3.5% since 2010—and, indeed, from slightly before that—so we are talking about a substantial compound reduction. That is not trivial but quite a big pressure point on all those budgets. I accept the Minister’s general point that it is a cash-limited and therefore substantial figure, but it is still certainly declining.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am glad that the noble Lord referred to it as being a substantial figure because, in the climate we are in, it was extremely good news that there was that ring-fenced settlement. A specific point for today is that the AHRC is receiving just under £100 million per annum over the spending review period, which is again a considerable sum of taxpayers’ money and is rightly being spent on that research area.

Research councils’ budgets are delegated, so it is for them to decide how best to allocate funding within the context of their overarching objectives. Building on progress made by the science and heritage programme, to which my noble friend Lady Sharp referred, and the increased research capacity it has brought, the AHRC is now also supporting heritage science through programmes developed in the current spending review period. Heritage is one of three key areas in the AHRC delivery plan for 2011-15. The AHRC will continue to work with the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council to ensure that the benefits of the science and heritage programme are maximised beyond the completion of the programme this year.

In turn, the AHRC, working with BIS, has been very actively involved with the consultation on European Commission framework programme 8, Horizon 2020, and has consistently made the case for the inclusion of heritage research in the Horizon 2020 societal challenges. I can tell my noble friends Lady Sharp and Lord Selborne, who raised the matter, that the Government consider that inclusion of heritage science is on track to be successfully achieved.

I say to my noble friend Lady Sharp that it is widely acknowledged in the sector that the science and heritage programme, for which she chairs the advisory council, has done excellent work, and that the body of knowledge that has been gained provides a springboard for further study and research. As has been mentioned, its work on conservation matters as diverse as flood resilience and renaissance sculpture is remarkable.

I turn to the national heritage science strategy and the national heritage science forum, which are referred to in the committee’s report. The Government fully support collaboration across the heritage science community, and we encourage all its bodies to increase their participation, as appropriate, in both the national heritage science strategy and the national heritage science forum. As the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, mentioned, English Heritage is playing an important part in continuing to support both the forum and the objectives of the national heritage science strategy, to which English Heritage is contributing directly through its own science strategy.

As has also been remarked, there has been an increase in collaboration between research councils, heritage institutions and individuals, and this is most welcome. The Government acknowledge the importance of public engagement with heritage science in stimulating interest in science, technology and engineering, and we support recommendations for the community to achieve this through the national heritage science forum.

I turn to the recommendations specifically directed at the Government. The committee expressed concern about the way in which DCMS monitors its bodies’ delivery of their heritage science responsibility and recommended that the department set specific departmental objectives for heritage science. DCMS has structures in place that enable it to ensure that its arm’s-length bodies fulfil their high-level strategic objectives and indicators, and achieve value for money. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, raised this issue, but performance against ministerial priorities and performance indicators is reviewed at regular ministerial and officials’ meetings with senior management of the arm’s-length bodies. The department does not wish to micromanage these bodies by imposing a large number of detailed objectives. The department is close to completing management agreements that cover the current spending review period to 2015. I think that it would be preferable if committee members knew once there had been a completion of those management agreements so that the detail is more readily available, with probably more time to consider.

The committee considered further the arrangements for scientific advice within DCMS, an issue raised by my noble friend Lady Sharp. The challenge facing departments—we all understand this; in many cases it is not a party issue—is to deliver effective policy with fewer resources. There are cost implications for DCMS arising from some of the recommendations made in the report.

Picking up on the point about the work of the DCMS’s Science and Research Advisory Committee, I say to my noble friend Lady Sharp that, in considering its future, the Government Office for Science is now conducting a review with a view to improving and enhancing its work and making it more effective. The department now has a new deputy chief scientific, who is working with the Government Chief Scientific Adviser and the Government Office for Science to fully integrate the department with the chief scientific adviser network in such a way that DCMS can draw on the advice of all other departmental chief scientific advisers as well.

The committee recommended that the department work with partners to ensure that there was no decline in senior heritage science posts. The Government support the recommendation to ensure the long-term health of the heritage community through attracting new scientists to heritage science, and we encourage its bodies to contribute to research and collaboration that could do more to achieve this goal.

The committee made recommendations about possible sources of funding for heritage science, which are entirely in tune with the department’s policy to support efforts by the heritage sector to broaden its range of funding sources, in particular through philanthropy. We agree that philanthropy has an important part to play in supporting heritage science. To support the fundraising efforts of the cultural sector, the DCMS, Arts Council England, and the Heritage Lottery Fund have set up the Catalyst programme, with more than £50 million going towards the establishment of endowments to be matched by a further £100 million from private donors. Among those receiving endowment grants is the Mary Rose Trust, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, referred, which was awarded £1 million last June. The Mary Rose was the first modern warship, but as important as the history of the Mary Rose is the science from the Mary Rose. The Mary Rose Trust is the world leader in specialised marine conservation and has Europe’s largest maritime archaeological conservation centre.

The Government recognise that digitisation has huge potential to facilitate wider and higher quality access to and understanding of future cultural collections and artefacts. Indeed, last summer, the Heritage Lottery Fund launched a new digital strategy and announced that funds can now be used for digital-only projects. As has been replayed to me, the Government do not wish to impose a top-down centralised structure to any digitisation framework, and have asked their arm’s-length bodies and the sector to collaborate together with the NHLF on a national or international framework for digitisation. The DCMS’s arm’s-length bodies are already taking the lead in attracting commercial funding for the digitisation of heritage collections, such as the partnership between the British Library and Google to digitise 250,000 out of copyright books from the library’s collection.

The committee’s work stands as an important touchstone against which work and progress in heritage science can be judged. It recognises the intrinsic value of our cultural heritage and the sector’s importance to the social, cultural and economic life of the UK and its role in attracting tourists from home and overseas. There are always areas where more could be done, and I am conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, has set me some tasks and questions. Given that some of them are quite intricate, I beg leave to write to him, as he generously suggested, so that I can fully consider the implications of what he said. It is important that the department works with its arm’s-length bodies to ensure a wide variety of work where science and heritage meet.

A number of points have been made about leadership, and I can understand what is meant. Clearly, the department has, and should have, an leadership role because it is responsible for the arm’s-length bodies that do the work on the nation’s behalf. The department sees heritage as having a clear role to play in supporting growth and welcomes the emphasis in the follow-up report on the significance of the sector to the UK economy. The Government have recently championed the importance of heritage in their GREAT campaign and the department also recognises the importance of science and of caring for heritage collections now and for future generations. It is clear that preservation cannot be taken for granted.

It has been my privilege over the past few weeks to start meeting some of my ministerial colleagues in the department—I was at a ministerial meeting earlier today, referring to this debate, which is clearly very important. I thank your Lordships. I have learnt a great deal today.

I want reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Hilton of Eggardon, that I have taken on board the points she made about education. Announcements are due. I have been asked this question a number of times in debates. I know of the concern. There is a determination to raise standards for the children of this country but I am confident—and I am a passionate supporter of the creative sector—that the education required to make that sector prosper will be in place. As I said, further announcements will be made.

I also want to say, to the committee members in particular, that it really was a very valuable report. Like all these things there are disappointments that the Government could not accept the proposals in full. I suspect no Government at any time are ever in the luxurious position of agreeing with everything because they have other conflicting demands. However, I would like to confirm Her Majesty’s Government’s commitment to heritage science in particular and to say that your Lordships’ work will be of benefit to all as we seek to preserve and understand better our rich and very valuable national heritage through science.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I hope it will be thought appropriate that before discussing the first amendment, we should take note of the resignation announced today of the Minister formerly in charge of this Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Marland. Most people would agree that the noble Lord added a certain amount of colour and indeed, candour when he was on the Front Bench, and I thank him for his friendliness and assistance in the short period we worked together on this Bill. We wish him well in his continuing role as trade ambassador.

Although he is not in his place, I should also like to welcome the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, to his new brief. I hope that he will enjoy his role on this Bill and, more generally, in relation to the department. We are, as it happens, near neighbours in Buckinghamshire. We sing tenor together in the parliamentary choir, and we also deal with the DCMS brief, although I am not sure whether he is continuing with that. We have plenty of reasons for wanting to keep in harmony and to support each other over the fraught times that we will undoubtedly face over this Bill and on other matters. If he is continuing with the DCMS brief, we will have only a short pause after today because we will be facing each other at the Dispatch Box on the Leveson report. It will not have escaped notice that the noble Viscount is the third person to occupy the position of Minister at BIS this Session, and I hope that he has a tenure more akin to that of his predecessor but one, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, than the noble Lord, Lord Marland, and that we will get though the remaining stages of this legislation without further changes.

Going through Hansard for the first four Committee days I counted 10 issues on which the noble Lord, the former Minister, suggested that a meeting or further discussion with officials might resolve a point raised in debate. Clearly little was going to happen during the Recess, but time moves on and I hope that the change in leadership of the Bill will not derail discussions which have been promised. Therefore, I wonder whether, in the spirit of working together on the Bill and to ensure that we have a successful resolution of the remaining stages, we can have an early meeting of the respective Bill teams. I should be grateful if the Minister will consider that.

Moving on to the amendment, in December 2010, the Government published a policy document entitled Reducing Regulation Made Simple in which they announced their intention that all new domestic legislation imposing a regulatory burden on businesses or civil society organisations would be required to include a review clause and a sunset clause. This reflected a commitment made in the coalition agreement to,

“impose sunset clauses on regulations and regulators to ensure that the need for each regulation is regularly reviewed”.

In March 2011, they announced the publication of Sunsetting Regulations: Guidance, intended to,

“assist Departments in implementing the Government’s commitment to introduce sunset clauses in new regulations”.

The guidance covers the application of sunsetting and reviewing to new domestic regulations that impose burdens on business or civil society, including legislation implementing international regulatory obligations.

The aim of this policy is to remove regulatory burdens on businesses and civil society by ensuring that regulations are: subject to regular review, to determine whether the policy objectives that led to the introduction of the regulations still apply and whether regulation is still necessary in achieving those objectives; and that regulations which are unnecessary or burdensome are removed. We agree with that approach. However, we think that it should go further.

Amendment 26EA deals with the need for stakeholders to be given a statutory role. For example, the British Retail Consortium stated in its written submission to the Committee on the Bill in another place:

“We welcome the intention of the introduction of sunset clauses and other deregulatory measures in the Bill ... However, we are not optimistic that these will all deliver their potential, given our experience with the Red Tape Challenge and One in, One out. We need to see genuine sunset reviews when the term is up, with a formal role for stakeholders”.—[Official Report, Commons, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill Committee, 12/7/12; col. 562.]

Businesses and other relevant stakeholders should surely be able to shape the Government’s thinking on business policy in general and sunset provisions in particular. It is of little help to businesses and the wider economy if somebody in Whitehall decides, unilaterally and without consultation, to apply sunset provisions when businesses or other groups might consider them to be successful or not in need of termination. We need to ensure that business policy is not dictated to businesses, but is produced in full consultation with them. In particular, we need to ensure that SMEs are heard: after all, in many respects, large organisations have the ear of the Government because they can employ public relations or lobby organisations.

It may well be argued that this amendment is unnecessary, as Ministers responsible for legislation and regulation will get the views of businesses, civic leaders and so on continuously. But it is interesting that paragraph 39 of the sunsetting guidance states:

“In carrying out reviews, departments will need to consider how best to gather information and views from businesses, civil society organisations, and others affected by the regulation”.

It goes on to note that, “a formal consultation may”— I emphasise “may”—

“form a valuable part of this process”.

Surely, this should be a duty on government and not left as a question of,

“how best to gather information and views from businesses, civil society … and others”.

It may well be appropriate for a proportionate approach to be adopted but certain minimum standards should certainly be present. We think it is important for businesses, business organisations, trade unions and other stakeholders to be assured that they will be consulted on sunsetting proposals. Business policymaking together, between the Government and relevant stakeholders, will always make for better legislation, regulation and policy.

I shall also speak briefly to Amendment 26EB. Like the other amendment to which I have just spoken, this is pro-business. In my role as a shadow Minister, I speak with businesses regularly and one common thing that businesses say is that, more than anything else, they require certainty from government. Provide businesses with a stable and certain policy environment in which government decisions are made—in consultation, obviously, with businesses and other stakeholders—adhered to and announced with sufficient time for businesses to plan and adapt, and businesses will have the ingenuity, entrepreneurial skill and flair to do their bit to boost the economy, create growth and provide employment opportunities.

Conversely, if there is an uncertain environment in which businesses are unsure of the general policy direction of the Government—if the Government lack a “compelling vision” for the economy, for instance, as the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills recently stated—and there are ad hoc, knee-jerk and ill thought-through policies announced without due consultation with businesses or sufficient time for them to adapt, investment and confidence will undoubtedly plummet.

In a nutshell, the purpose of the amendment is to ensure that changes to non-urgent regulations, particularly the sunset provisions outlined in the clause, come into force or end their period in force on one of only two dates in a year. We have chosen 6 April and 1 October because these dates are already familiar to businesses from the regulatory environment.

The amendment is needed because the Government are not complying with their own principles. I gather that the April 2011 statement on new regulation did not give three months’ notice for any changes to regulations and that it even included changes which had occurred three months previously. As I understand it, the September 2011 statement of new regulation was backward-looking, hardly giving business time to prepare and providing no prior warning of regulation changes. There was hardly any progress with the April 2012 statement of new regulation, which again included no changes to regulations three months prior to their coming into effect but included some changes that had occurred four months earlier. This means that businesses do not have adequate time to plan, adapt and make use of what is coming along. Statutory muscle is needed here; that is the purpose behind this amendment.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, for his generous and thoughtful opening remarks about colleagues. If I may take the recently appointed Minister’s opinions before the noble Lord knows of them, I am absolutely certain that, knowing his style, he will be very keen to continue meetings and dialogue with all interested Members of your Lordships’ House. I am sure that that will be uppermost in his mind as all Members of this House seek to improve legislation as we go forward.

Turning to the noble Lord’s amendment, I say from the outset that the Government are fully committed to the principle of engagement with stakeholders as part of a statutory review, as set out in the published sunsetting guidance. Reviews should draw on a range of evidence, including from those who are being regulated, the regulators, and those affected. It is already the case that the Minister responsible for the review is, under administrative law, obliged to consider any submissions made to him or her in relation to the review. In the view of the Government, a formal statutory requirement to receive views as proposed in the amendment would not change that position but would risk introducing additional and unnecessary administrative burdens.

For practical reasons, there needs to be sufficient flexibility for departments in deciding how to carry out the review, what evidence to use, and how to engage with those affected by the regulation. That could be inhibited if an additional statutory requirement were introduced. Effective engagement with stakeholders as part of the review can be delivered without additional statutory prescription, in a way that allows for an approach tailored to the circumstances of each review.

The Government are fully committed to the principle of common commencement dates for new domestic regulation affecting business. Where the regulation comes into effect on a common commencement date, the sunset date will, in accordance with the Government’s policy on sunsetting, also fall on a common commencement date. In the Government’s view, there is no need to prescribe this in legislation, as proposed in the amendment. Indeed, in some cases, there may be good reasons for temporary legislation to cease to have effect on a date other than 6 April or 1 October. That would be prevented by the amendment. The Government do not believe that there is a need to recast the statement of new regulation as a formal statutory requirement. There is also a risk that this would act as an unwelcome constraint, and make the statement less responsive to developing needs and priorities.

The most recent statement was published on 17 December, a full three months in advance of the April 2013 common commencement date. It provides a comprehensive summary of all the regulations affecting business that are to come into force in the first half of 2013. Regulations that will cease to have effect as a result of a sunset provision will be included in future statements.

The Government are a deregulatory government. Over the past two years, the Government have reduced the annual burden of domestic regulation on business by more than £800 million. By June 2013, a further reduction to more than £900 million is expected.

Based on the assurances that I have provided concerning the Government’s policy on the use of sunset and review provisions and related matters, I would be most grateful if the noble Lord would consider withdrawing his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments. I note in respect of the first amendment that, while professing that the Government are fully committed to engagement, he still adheres to the idea that somehow by keeping flexibility in whether departments are required to carry out consultation the door is left open to maintaining a lesser standard than is required by the aspirations that he has expressed. We will need to keep this under review. Although I take the point that including a more formal structure for when regulatory statements start and stop might make it more difficult, there is still genuine feeling among businesses that it would be better if the Government would think more closely about the impact of how regulations apply and are started and stopped. We may need to come back to that, but, given what the Minister has said, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first, I am sorry to hear that the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, is indisposed. I very much hope that she will make a speedy recovery because there will be continuing amendments to which I would like to speak and which would involve the noble Baroness. Government Amendments 26G and 26H improve the operation of certificates of lawfulness of proposed works to listed buildings. This again was a matter raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, at Second Reading. These amendments reflect the Government’s positive response. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Marland and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, have been in correspondence about these matters.

The certificates of lawfulness will provide a simple, light-touch mechanism for local planning authorities to confirm that listed building consent is not required in cases where proposed works would have no impact on the building’s special interest. As currently drafted, certificates could potentially last for ever but, at the same time, they do not offer the owner of the listed building absolute certainty that the works are lawful. This is not the result that the Government intended, which is why we have tabled Amendments 26G and 26H. These amendments provide that certificates last for a period of 10 years, during which time the lawfulness of any works for which a certificate is in force will be conclusively presumed. A new certificate may be applied for at the end of the 10-year period if required and, if the application is for a new certificate on effectively the same terms as an existing certificate, we envisage there being a light-touch reapplication process.

Amendments 26G and 26H will ensure both certainty for owners of listed buildings and flexibility to respond to changes over time in understanding about heritage significance. Amendments 26J, 26K and 26L make minor and technical amendments to Clause 53. They correct an anomaly in the current drafting by providing that the Secretary of State’s powers to prescribe the procedure for appeals in connection with certificates of lawfulness are exercisable by regulations rather than order. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I shall be brief about this. My notes from the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, confirm that the two issues raised here are in accordance with those requested by English Heritage. The change from an indefinite period to 10 years, and the change to ensure that the certificates are lawful, will help considerably in trying to manage the properties with which the body is concerned. The changes allow a long enough period to be useful to the owner but will obviously reflect the fact that our views of heritage and our attitudes to it change over time and that, therefore, after about a 10-year period, it is appropriate for there to be a new application.

The noble Baroness also wanted a number of points to be made in relation to an exchange of letters that I mentioned in the earlier discussion, and I am happy that they have been mentioned here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, government Amendment 26P changes the procedure for making a national class consent order. Class consent orders will grant listed building consent for certain categories of work or buildings where the extent of the building’s special interest is well understood, without any need to make an application. The Secretary of State will have the power to make national class consent orders that will apply across England. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee recommended that this power should be subject to the affirmative rather than the negative procedure. Amendment 26P gives effect to this recommendation. It will apply the affirmative resolution procedure and ensure that national class consent orders will be subject to full parliamentary scrutiny.

Perhaps I may respond to the concerns raised at Second Reading by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, about the scope of national class consent orders. It is our expectation that national class consent orders will be used to describe specific works carried out by specific organisations in specific locations—for example, works to listed structures by the Canal & River Trust for the functioning of a canal. The Government do not envisage that a more generic national class consent will apply to broad categories of work across the board. We recognise the difficulties of identifying wider categories of work that could safely be carried out across the wide variety of listed buildings without causing some unintended damaging consequence. The provisions already contain the safeguard that requires the Secretary of State to consult English Heritage before making a national class consent order. Amendment 26P will provide additional assurance about the use of such orders.

Perhaps I may also address concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, that the minimum annual review period for local class consent orders might prove so onerous that it would inhibit their use. The requirements in the Bill are broadly equivalent to those in force for local development orders, and there is no evidence to suggest that an annual review will be burdensome. The form of review will be prescribed by regulations. We intend to make the review a light-touch but important way of ensuring transparency and accountability. We will consult on the regulations before they are made. I hope that the noble Baroness, in her absence, and noble Lords will be reassured. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, we are pleased with the amendment and grateful to the Minister for his contextual words. The recommendation brings into play a recommendation from the Delegated Powers Committee. It is important because these national class consent orders were very broad. Although the committee recognised that there was a case for using secondary legislation for this, it was concerned that it needed a slightly higher level of consent. The amendment also fits in with the feelings of English Heritage on the matter, so we are in a good place and it was helpful to have the wider context laid out.

In his speech the Minister mentioned local class consent orders, which are not touched on in the amendment. Here we will register our disappointment that the proposal is not to revise or review the regularity of reporting, which will remain annual.

Devolved Administrations: Industrial Strategy

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first, I thank my noble friend for his very generous and kind remarks. He is a great champion of Wales. I am delighted by the news this morning that employment has grown to its highest levels since records began in 1971. Indeed, in Wales, there has been an increase in total employment since April 2010 of 67,000.

The Government’s objective is to make the UK the best place to start, run and expand a business. The success of the private sector in all parts of the UK is key to the recovery, and 900,000 private sector jobs have been created in the past two years. I reassure my noble friend that we are working closely with the devolved Administrations. Regardless of political colour, the national interest comes first.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I, too, welcome the noble Lord to the Dispatch Box and commiserate that it is not he but the noble Lord, Lord Marland, who is topping up his tan. I listened carefully to his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, but note that he has failed to explain exactly the detail of the industrial strategy of which he speaks. Without knowing that, it is hard to understand how he can make the judgment that it is fully supported by the three devolved Governments. Will he take this opportunity to confirm that he agrees with the Secretary of State of his department, who said recently:

“The Government lacks the compelling vision … to get the economy growing again”?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I thank the noble Lord for his initial remarks, but I have to say that the Government’s plan for growth is very clear and outlines 250 measures to deliver the four growth ambitions: the creation of the most competitive tax system in the G20, at the lowest level in the G7; as I said before, to make the UK the best place to start a business; to encourage investment and exports; and to create a more educated workforce that is the most flexible in Europe.