Environmental Land Management Schemes

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my farming interests as set out in the register. Plans for the ELM national pilot are progressing at pace. The pilot will build on the excellent work of 72 ongoing tests and trials, covering a wide range of sectors and geographies, including uplands, commons and tenant farmers. The pilot will extend over time. By 2022, it will cover all three components of the environmental land management scheme.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I refer to the recent document, The Path to Sustainable Farming: An Agricultural Transition Plan, which sets out some of the ways in which this is going to be done. It is very welcome, although still very vague and lacking in the detail that farmers and lots of other people want. However, in all the areas—the three tiers of the sustainable farming incentive, local nature recovery and landscape recovery—certain public goods are almost completely absent. Those are the questions of public access and public education, particularly for young people. Will the Minister give a commitment that, in the national pilot that is going to be produced, building on the tests and trials, these matters will be given a prominent position in all three areas of the scheme?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, as we said in consideration of the Agriculture Bill, access will be part of the schemes, and work is under way in those areas. I look forward to working with your Lordships to ensure that there is a rollout of not only the environmental advancements but access where it will have considerable benefits for people.

EU: Xylella Fastidiosa

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Wednesday 8th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I realise that there is great interest in this House in the Environment Bill, and I am keen that progress is made in the other place. We are in a situation where there is a great deal of legislation before us. The OEP is an important body, but we have always said that we will ensure that there are alternative arrangements if, given the position we are in, the OEP is not up and running by 1 January.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, this makes a change from Japanese knotweed. Can the Minister tell us how, when plants are imported into this country, they are being checked? How do the Government and the country know whether or not this pathogen is being imported? Is the problem importing plants which are affected by the bacterium, or do the insects have to be accompanying them?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we are intensifying this through APHA inspections, sampling and testing. The statutory notification scheme for olive, almond and plane trees means that imports can be traced to premises and inspections can be carried out. For other plant species, such as lavender, risk-based visits are carried out to inspect and sample plants, focusing particularly on recent imports. A lot of scientific work is going on into Xylella fastidiosa, because not all the answers are known. One thing we are most concerned about, and which the EU has not yet acted on following EFSA’s report, is it jumping further distances; we are extremely concerned about that.

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Thursday 12th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made towards the eradication of Japanese Knotweed.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, Japanese knotweed is a tenacious species which is currently difficult to control on a large scale. Biocontrol agents have shown the potential to reduce the invasive capacity of Japanese knotweed and provide a cost-effective and time-effective way of managing this problem. We have been trialling biocontrol methods to control Japanese knotweed and are working to establish two highly specific biocontrol agents: the Aphalara itadori psyllid and a Mycosphaerella leaf spot fungus.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, it is 10 years since we first talked about the jumping plant louse, the psyllid, in this House. Another six months have gone by and there is another Question on Japanese knotweed. Can the Minister give us more information about the two biological agents, particularly the psyllid, which we have been talking about for so long? Secondly, can he tell us about updated government advice on property transactions when Japanese knotweed is on the property, particularly for people seeking mortgages, following last May’s Select Committee report?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we accepted the recommendation in the Science and Technology Committee report to commission a study of international approaches in the context of property sales, and we expect to receive the final report at the end of March. I shall make sure that the noble Lord receives it. On the psyllid, there are problems with climatic issues, so more recently we have been seeking psyllids from the north and west of Japan, where we think the climatic conditions could be more similar to our climate.

As for the work that CABI, the Centre for Agriculture and Biosciences International, is doing with the leaf spot fungus, this is a single-mating type of specialist pathogen developed into a product for direct application, but which would not persist and spread in the wild or threaten any native species. I emphasise that because the last thing we want is any unintended consequences. This is going to take some years to reach the shelves if it is successful, but it is all part of our endeavour to control this very invasive plant.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

It is my privilege to occasionally see my noble friend, and she is always extremely encouraging. As for shooting admirals, I am not sure—shooting Ministers, perhaps, but certainly not admirals.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I inform the House that before she retired, Lady Sharples extracted a promise from me that I would ask this Question at least every six months.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

If it is my privilege to answer this Question again, I look forward to that. With research, we are always impatient and want the results now. I can promise your Lordships that through CABI, Defra is recognising that we need to find ways of doing this. For instance, the Environment Agency is experimenting with electro weeding, and on the Severn it has reduced Japanese knotweed by 50%. We are endeavouring to make progress.

England Coast Path

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they expect to complete the England Coast Path and access around the coast of England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, work is well under way on all 66 stretches of the path. By June, all Natural England’s route proposals will have been published. The original target was to open the path this year. The delay has been caused by a European court case which required Natural England to reassess the impact of its proposals. I expect the whole path to be open, or to have establishment works under way, by the end of 2021.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that Answer. The first sections of the path were under way in 2010, when the coalition Government took over. During that time various Conservative Ministers tried to stop it, but, thanks partly to Liberal Democrat pressure—

[Lord Greaves]

It is absolutely true—I was at the meetings. Thanks to that, the Deputy Prime Minister was able to announce in 2015 that the path would be open by 2020. Does the Minister agree that only about a third of the path has so far been opened? Is he certain that the whole path will be open by the end of 2021, and is that a firm commitment?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, just to be clear, the first stretch of the path opened in 2012. I am in dialogue with senior officials at Natural England because, obviously, we wanted it to be finished this year. The Government granted a further £25 million to advance completion from 2030 to 2020. We want to keep up the pressure. I have set out very clearly the reasons for this delay; there is about an 18-month delay because of the court case and its implications for nature conservation designations. I am as confident as I can be, subject to any planning matters, that we will complete this.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I can confirm that it is a footpath. However, having walked some of the stretch at Great Yarmouth, I know that parts of it absolutely are designed to enable disabled people to enjoy the wonders of the coastline.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, will the Minister join me in hoping that it is finished in sufficient time so that people with deteriorating joints, such as myself, can still walk the whole path?

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Thursday 16th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent steps they have taken to eradicate Japanese knotweed.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, we are trialling biocontrol methods to control Japanese knotweed. The Centre for Agriculture and Bioscience International is working to establish the highly specific psyllid, Aphalara itadori, into the United Kingdom. This summer, a population of a more climatically suitable psyllid from Japan will be brought here. It is hoped that this will be the key to unlocking the potential of this agent to reduce the effort and cost of managing Japanese knotweed and its invasive capacity.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, it is 30 years since Lady Sharples started asking questions about Japanese knotweed, and about 12 or 15 since I joined her, but all we get is the same answer every time: that this wonderful psyllid, Aphalara, will come galloping over the horizon and solve everything. It is absolutely clear that the problem of Japanese knotweed is getting worse and worse and causing more and more problems, and it is simply not being tackled. Do the Government agree that two things need doing? First, owners of land need to be put under a legal obligation to eradicate Japanese knotweed, and allowing it to grow should be an offence. Secondly, when transactions or contracts are made relating to land that has Japanese knotweed on it, or when people walk on it and may spread it, they should be notified that this dreadful, awful weed exists or has recently existed on that land.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, trials often take longer than we wish, but I assure the noble Lord that we are collaborating with Canada, because it has a similar problem, and with experts across Europe and the United States. I agree: it is frustrating that the psyllid has not established as we wished. We are working on another form of control, which is also under evaluation: a mycoherbicide. This is all part of using the science. I agree with the noble Lord that it is very invasive. That is why I will read some of the advice in the Science and Technology Committee report that came out this morning. We need to attend to this. The problem with the noble Lord’s first point is that, if someone fly-tips spoil with elements of Japanese knotweed, will the landowner really be required to remove that fly-tip? That is the problem if you make it a legal liability on the landowner to remove it.

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Tuesday 7th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I pay tribute yet again to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, for her persistence in this matter. I am very sorry she cannot be here today and, if she is poorly, I hope she gets better as quickly as possible. The Minister referred to a two-pronged approach but over the years the Government have put too much hope on the prospect of armies of jumping psyllids crossing the land, chewing the knotweed in their path and getting rid of it. That will not be the answer, not for a long time at least. Is not the answer in the short run the work of local action groups, local authorities and others, to which the Minister referred? Is it not the case that the Government ought to be giving a lot more strong advice to local authorities to get on with it, because this stuff can and ought to be removed?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

There are good examples of where local action groups have worked effectively and eradicated Japanese knotweed. In Defra we have an official who is co-ordinating the work of the local action groups. I very much endorse their work and think it is the way forward. However, research shows that we should be looking for a more robust psyllid. We have released in 16 sites this year 120,000 psyllids and I hope we will see some progress in that regard.

Brexit: Non-chemical Farming Methods

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, on the issue of yields, the use of pesticides is precisely to protect crops and grassland. Obviously, we need to use them carefully and have them well regulated. Without pesticides, undoubtedly yields would be reduced. The most important thing is that there is active co-operation on this now: 4.4 million hectares of land are involved in the voluntary initiative and the integrated pest management situation. All of that is strong news.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, the comprehensive codes of practice issued by the department and Natural England include advice on how to deal with rights of way and other areas for public access in places that are treated with pesticides. Do the Government have any hard evidence on how effective those codes of guidance are in relation to recreational users of the countryside?

Flood Defences

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Thursday 1st December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, perhaps I should say to the noble Baroness that, in fact, Flood Re does include leaseholders for up to three flats and contents insurance, but above three flats it becomes a commercial policy. So in point of fact there are permutations to the scheme. I want to emphasise that Flood Re is an industry-owned and managed not-for-profit reinsurer; it pools the risk of flood claims and is targeted, with a subsidy, to lower-income households.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Greaves]

I am grateful. Last February, £450,000 was allocated to a vital scheme to improve a culvert, called Victoria Clough, in the small town of Earby on the boundaries of Lancashire and Yorkshire, but nothing has yet happened. Is there a problem of capacity or resource constraints in getting the schemes going in Defra, the Environment Agency or anywhere else? If there is, would it not be sensible to let a competent local authority take it over?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I think that I had better look into the individual case that the noble Lord has referred to and come back to him. Generally speaking, we are confident that this £2.5 billion allocated to Defra over six years is going to make a very substantial difference, but we need continually to review the situation.

Footpaths

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Thursday 17th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and I remind the House of my interests as set out in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, responsibility for the management and maintenance of the 118,000 miles of public rights of way in England lies with local authorities. The Government have allocated central funds for the establishment of the 2,700-mile England Coast Path. We have also provided funding for the maintenance of national trails and national parks where the Ramblers’ survey recognises that rights of way are in a better condition than elsewhere in the country.

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[Lord Greaves]

I am not sure about Japanese knotweed on public footpaths, although no doubt Ramblers will report it if it is there. I am not sure that I am supposed to take interventions on Questions, either.

Also, there are issues with signposts that either do not exist or point in the wrong direction, as well as paths that become quagmires. The footpath network is resilient but there are increasing signs of problems in many areas. What are the Government doing about it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first I acknowledge the tenacity of the noble Lord on this matter and on the matter of Japanese knotweed; I very much enjoy our exchanges. I acknowledge the work of Ramblers and all its volunteers. This excellent report says that nowhere is the network broken and that problems are highly localised. In fact, 91% of paths are “adequately”—some requiring improvement—or “well” kept. I will be in touch with the chief executive of Ramblers, Vanessa Griffiths, because I want to explore with her where the 9% of paths are that are poorly kept, and why.

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first, I acknowledge my noble friend’s tenacity in seeking to deal with this brute of a plant. On mortgages, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors published an information paper only last year that aims to help valuers and mortgage lenders better understand the implications of this plant for residential properties. We anticipate that this will lead to a more pragmatic approach between all parties in dealing with it. On what my noble friend said about the tragedy, this invasive species of plant is of great concern and we need to deal with it where we can.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, while the Minister’s work with the psyllid, the jumping plant louse, gets going, will he encourage local action groups around the country to tackle this dreadful plant in the ways it can already be tackled—though that needs a lot of work? Is he aware of the good work being done in my own borough of Pendle by an organisation called the Environmental Action Group? It employs young people who might otherwise have difficulty getting jobs, trains them and does good local environmental work. Along with the Ribble Rivers Trust, it has set about the task of eliminating Japanese knotweed from our borough.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I certainly acknowledge what is happening in the noble Lord’s part of the world and I am well aware of the group in Pendle. Many local action groups are working to treat this problem and there is very good national coverage. As examples of where, with tenacity, we can deal with this, the Norfolk local action group eradicated all Japanese knotweed on the River Wensum special area of conservation, while in Bristol Japanese knotweed on all publicly owned land is now 95% under management. There are a number of good stories to tell. My view is that wherever people are determined to deal with this, it can be dealt with.

Air Quality

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Thursday 3rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Obviously, we will have to look at diesel. As I mentioned earlier, the updates we received on emissions at the end of September mean that we are going to be looking at this area very carefully indeed. The most important thing is that we wish to target our work at the oldest and most polluting vehicles. We have been working on that with the five cities, but many other cities will be working on it and we need to work together because we need to get it right this time. I assure your Lordships that the department and its officials want to make this a lasting settlement on this issue.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, local authorities throughout the country have a duty to test pollution levels—for example, on main roads passing through their towns—and they can declare zones where the air quality is not high enough, yet they have no real powers to do anything about it. What is the purpose of this exercise?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my understanding of the Transport Act 2000 is that local authorities do have the powers. Referring to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty—which I should have answered more fully—we believe that there are existing powers for local authorities to set up clean air zones. The ability of charging authorities to introduce a clean air zone was clearly set out in the Transport Act 2000.

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Lord hits on something as regards where it is seen to be a local priority. I should say that this is about local authorities in partnership with householders and landowners in a real community effort. I acknowledge that in Bristol, for instance, 95% of Japanese knotweed surveyed is under management. Cornwall County Council is a leader in tackling Japanese knotweed and is committed to controlling the spread of the plant. These are examples of how, with local action groups, we can make a real difference.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I have not been asking these questions as long as the noble Baroness because I have not been here quite as long as her, but if she has been tenacious and persistent, as the Minister says, she is unfortunately not quite as tenacious and persistent—and certainly not as aggressive—as this dreadful weed.

The Minister rightly says that the successful areas now are in local action and traditional means of getting rid of the plant, and that waiting for the famous psyllid, the insect which is going to do the trick, is simply not going to be sufficient. As the noble Lord just asked, why are the Government not making much more effort to spread the good practice, such as that in Pendle, where I live, which is doing a very good job indeed of getting rid of it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, because it is very important that we raise awareness of this plant: awareness-raising is a key element of the strategy on invasive non-native species. There have been many initiatives, such as the Be Plant Wise and Check, Clean, Dry campaigns launched by Defra. It is very important that we all work together on this, because the examples of where it is working and we are eradicating the plant are of huge benefit to local communities.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I apologise but my understanding is that the relevant text in the Bill has been removed. Amendments 31 to 39 have fallen, as it were, because of the pre-emption. That provision has gone.

[Lord Greaves]

Perhaps I can help the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the House. This is getting into such a mess that I think we should adjourn now, but that is a different issue. The amendment that has been carried removes subsection (4). All these other amendments seek to insert text on completely different issues after subsection (4). I do not think that the removal of subsection (4) pre-empts text on completely different issues that is sought to be inserted after that subsection. I hesitate to say this when the Clerk is jumping up and down, but just because the relevant measure refers to line 9, and line 9 has been removed, it clearly now refers to where line 9 would have been previously.

Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, from the outset I acknowledge the long-standing interest that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has in the countryside and the impact of energy infrastructure on the landscape. The noble Lord referred to this matter at Second Reading. I know that my noble friend Lord Greaves also has a lasting interest in wild places.

As a countryman who cares about all these things very strongly, I understand where noble Lords are coming from. This is an important issue, and one that the Government recognise, which is why we have already put in place various safeguards within the planning and regulatory system to ensure that visual amenity and other sustainability issues are taken into account before decisions on infrastructure are made. Ofgem has a clear duty to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development; it must have regard to the effect on the environment of activities connected with the conveyance of gas through pipes and the generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity. It is also required to carry out impact assessments for important decisions, which would include consideration of sustainability implications, including local environmental impacts.

Amendments 41 and 46 would require the Government to undertake sustainability assessments of the policy set out in the strategy and policy statement before it is either designated or amended. Of course, it is important that the impact of regulatory decisions is assessed, but the intention of the strategy and policy statement is to reflect existing policy; it will not be a vehicle for the introduction of new policy or duties, nor will it contain any regulatory or planning decisions. The more appropriate time for consideration of the potential environmental impact of energy policy proposals is when they are being considered by the planning authorities—and I entirely understand what my noble friend Lord Greaves says about balance. Existing legislation, including in relation to the energy national policy statements, already provides the framework to ensure that this is done.

Amendments 42 and 50 would require Ofgem to show how it has complied with its general environmental duties to some extent in its forward programme work. Of course, I understand the noble Lord’s concern that Ofgem should take full and proper account of all its duties in drawing up its work plans.

The strategy and policy statement does not override Ofgem’s existing duties to contribute to sustainable development and, because of the requirement for Ofgem to set out its strategy for implementing the strategy and policy statement in its forward work programme, we believe that it will increase the accountability of the regulator. That is also reflected in the requirement to report annually on its contribution to meeting the strategy and policy statement’s policy outcomes. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred to the question of the requirement to demonstrate compliance with Ofgem’s environmental duties. Ofgem will be required to report on how it contributes to meeting the policy outcomes in the statement. Existing duties will still apply and we would expect Ofgem’s report to take account of those and how they impact on relevant regulatory actions. I would also expect both the work plan and the annual report to cover the relationship between the strategy and policy statement, as well as Ofgem’s remit.

Amendment 42A would require Ofgem to have regard to the effect on the environment of activities connected with the conveyance of gas through pipes and with the generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity. Under the existing regulatory framework, Ofgem already has duties that require it to have such regard. Again, I refer to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, made. That duty is imposed by the Gas Act and the Electricity Act and will still apply even if the guidance were to be repealed. As I have pointed out, nothing in the strategy and policy statement overrides those duties, which would continue to apply. Indeed, it is a reasonable expectation that the SPS will pick up on important parts of the guidance. In my view, Amendment 42A would therefore not be necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked whether the statement covers oil and gas exploration. No, it would not. It applies only to Ofgem’s existing regulatory duties. Ofgem does not regulate oil and gas exploration and no changes to that are proposed.

Amendments 43, 44, 45, 47 and 48 would introduce formal requirements for the Government to consult specified interest groups in relation to the SPS. As has been referred to, the Bill already makes provision for wide public consultation as we develop the contents of the SPS. I reassure the noble Lord that we intend to engage fully with all relevant stakeholders, including, where relevant, those who represent an environmental perspective. Furthermore, Ofgem will consult on its forward work plan, which will include its strategy for meeting the SPS policy outcomes. That will provide another opportunity for stakeholders to express their views. In the light of that, we do not consider it necessary to name particular interest groups in the legislation.

Amendment 49 would require that, when the strategy and policy statement is laid before Parliament, it is accompanied by a statement explaining how it relates to other government statements on energy policy. The legislation already requires that the strategy and policy statement sets out the Government’s strategic priorities and other main considerations of its energy policy. It will therefore have to reflect existing policy and explain the context in which it is made.

To refer to a point that my noble friend Lord Greaves made about how the strategy and policy statement relates to national policy statements for energy, the SPS will set out the Government’s strategic priorities and policy statements in relation to issues where the Government consider that Ofgem regulation has a significant role, whereas the national policy statements deal with the development of nationally significant infrastructure in particular sectors—for example, energy and transport. They are the framework for decisions by the Secretary of State on applications for development consent orders for nationally significant infrastructure projects and may be a material consideration for local planning authorities when determining other infrastructure proposals. It is for these reasons that this amendment is unnecessary.

I hope that the reasons I have outlined have reassured noble Lords about why the Government do not think that this amendment, the intention of which is entirely laudable, is necessary. I hope that I have been sufficiently reassuring for the noble Lord to feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Greaves]

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, other noble Lords and I will read the Minister’s speech very carefully. There was some helpful stuff in it. I have two questions. First, given that we will have the whole summer before we return for Report, might it be possible to firm up the kind of thing that might be in the SPS referring specifically to social and environmental issues as the replacement, which it says that it is going to be, for the stuff repealed by Clause 126? Secondly, does the Minister accept that, despite the fact that the NPS and SPS have different roles and therefore different purposes, if they were in conflict in any way, even in quite detailed ways, that might cause problems because people would pick up one and quote it against the other? If the SPS is to reflect existing policy, in those areas where it covers the same areas as the NPS on energy—and it clearly will in some areas—does it mean that it will follow the NPS, that the NPS will be the superior document and that the SPS will simply reflect the NPS or is it more complex than that? If it is more complex than that, we might want to come back on this.

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[Lord Greaves]

Before the noble Lord withdraws the amendment, will the Minister comment briefly on the two supplementary questions I asked him?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, if the guidance is repealed, an environmental duty in the electricity Acts and the SPS will cover the same ground as is currently the case. However, I will reflect on what the noble Lord has said and will write to him if there is anything more constructive on which I can report.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Greaves

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, concerns about the unintended consequences of the assets of community value provisions were raised at Second Reading and in Committee. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Cathcart and I tabled amendments because of our concern. Therefore, I thank the Minister very much for her understanding and determination to ensure that the Bill hit the right target in bringing forward the Government’s amendments tonight.

I also include in my acknowledgement and appreciation of the work undertaken the Bill team and, indeed, outside bodies such as the Country Land and Business Association for securing practical solutions. The common objective that we all share is vibrant communities for the future and I hope that the Bill as amended will help to fulfil that aspiration.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I thank the Government for listening to the debate on this matter in Committee and for coming forward with amendments which, by and large, are very sensible. I particularly appreciate their picking up the ancillary use point that I raised in an amendment, a great deal of which makes sense. Furthermore, I think that we all owe a debt to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, for the hard work that he put into this part of the Bill—not least because it meant that we could leave it to him and concentrate on other parts of the Bill.