Ratification of the Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Monday 12th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Clancarty]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will introduce legislation to ratify the 1954 Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict and accede to its two protocols.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I am not in a position to say when the Government will introduce legislation to facilitate the UK’s ratification of the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict and its two protocols. I confirm our commitment to heritage protection and our respect for other nations’ cultural property. That is why we have pledged to introduce legislation as soon as parliamentary time allows.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a growing feeling that, if we do not ratify this treaty, at the very least we shall not have the necessary moral authority to speak out on, as well as to help to protect against, the destruction and theft of cultural heritage that continues to occur? The Government have been saying for years that they will ratify the treaty when parliamentary time allows. There is now plenty of parliamentary time. Will the Government get on with it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I of course understand the noble Earl’s position. It has not been possible for either the current or the previous Government to secure the parliamentary time needed to pass the relevant legislation. It was necessary for both Governments to take it up by giving priority to measures for economic recovery and reform.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that there has in recent years been a considerable and avoidable loss of cultural heritage as a result of armed conflict? Does he not acknowledge that in 2008 the previous Government published the draft Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill for consultation? We have had 10 years since the Government’s concerns were removed by the passage of the second protocol. Can he not find some time for this? Parliament would be very keen to see this enacted.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, again I understand my noble friend’s position. It will help if I say that, because of anticipation of this country’s adoption of the convention and its protocols, it already informs the Armed Forces’ law of armed conflict doctrine and training policy, particularly with regard to respect for cultural property, precautions in attack and recognition of the protective emblem.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister’s words are welcome as far as they go, but will he acknowledge that Governments have on previous occasions made exactly the same commitment as he has done today, yet the situation has persisted—disgracefully—that Britain is the only significant military power not to have ratified the convention? On this one issue at least, will the coalition parties set aside their differences and agree to put this measure in the Queen’s Speech?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am certainly not privy to the content of the Queen’s Speech. It would be fair to say that the coalition has taken forward many measures that are in the national interest. I am aware of and understand entirely the feelings of your Lordships and many outside who want legislation on this matter.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I must apologise to the Minister. I am afraid that was overenthusiasm because something did just cross my mind: is this is an issue of time or of inclination?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I think I have emphasised in my replies that this is a question of time. We have pledged that we wish there to be legislation, as indeed did the previous Government. I have read the draft Bill published in January 2008. However, for very legitimate reasons, the previous Government felt that legislation was required to deal with the economic crisis. That is what the coalition Government have done and I believe it is bearing fruit—which is, after all, in the national interest.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think that any noble Lords would doubt the inclinations of my noble friend. However, 10 years is quite a long time and 60 years is even longer. We have just had an extra week of Easter Recess and we have an unnecessary extra week of Prorogation. Can we not just find a little time to get this very necessary measure—on which my noble friend protests that everyone agrees—on to the statute book?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend, as ever, makes a compelling point. However, I am afraid I am not a magician and I cannot will the parliamentary time. During this Session, we have undertaken a lot of very important work in the national interest, which is what your Lordships’ House does. I was looking at the recess weeks—they have been the same for the past three Sessions.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the moral case for adopting this legislation is unanswerable. As we have heard, it is not really credible to say that this is about parliamentary time. I have heard what the Minister has said. Will he give a personal commitment that he will do what he can to ensure that this measure is included in the Queen’s Speech?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am afraid that really is rather above my pay grade. I understand entirely what the noble Lord is saying. We would ideally like this to be put on the statute book but we are not in a position to do that at the moment. What is important in practical terms is that our Armed Forces are very conscious of the protocol and the convention, which is why they adhere to what is intended. I have some very interesting details on what we have been undertaking in Afghanistan, for instance, where we very much adhere to the requirements of the convention.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

Would my noble friend accept that one of the prime casualties of any armed conflict is the truth, and that we set up the Chilcot inquiry to establish the truth into that tragic war in Iraq? That report has now taken longer to write than World War 1 took to fight, and there is a rumour abroad that it is being held up by the intransigence of one very wealthy man. Would he not accept that the nation’s interests, and the interests of truth, far outweigh the interests of any one man and can he tell us when that report will be published?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I thank my noble friend but all these reports take their course and take their time. However, it is obviously very important that we have this report and have it in the proper time.