Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Frost Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 26th February 2025 Lords Chamber

The second benefit of the amendment is that it says—and I rather like this idea—that we should have a high-quality regulatory framework and a priority to maintain our regulatory autonomy. That does not mean we do not align with other jurisdictions; it means that we retain control of the extent to which we are aligned with other jurisdictions. In so far as that is encapsulated in a purpose clause at the outset, it would illustrate what use this legislation should be put to. We will come on to discuss the deficiencies of the Bill and whether the framework is sufficiently clear, but the more one is clear in statute what the purpose of a framework Bill is, the easier it is subsequently to scrutinise the many statutory instruments that will come forward in reference to it.

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendment from my noble friend Lord Sharpe. We discussed what the point of the Bill is on many occasions in Committee, but I am afraid we are none the wiser and certainly no better informed on that subject as a result. That is why it is necessary to have a clearer purpose clause written into the Bill. The nearest we have is in the Explanatory Notes from a few months back; I will not read the full text, but they say:

“The Bill intends to ensure the UK is better placed to address modern day safety issues”


and high modern standards

“by allowing the UK Parliament the power to update relevant laws”.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the UK Parliament already has the power to update any law that it wishes, so I do not see how that can be the purpose of this Bill; there must be something else to it. Of course, one could speculate about it. Perhaps it is just to relieve the Government of the burden of having to go through the effort of legislating for the full range of manufactured goods that we still produce in this country, to delegate that power to the European Union and to recreate the situation that existed before we left that organisation. Perhaps it is to help with the woeful arrangements of the Windsor Framework and to make it a little easier to move goods across the internal border from Great Britain to Northern Ireland—I do not know.

What the purpose of the Bill cannot be is to reduce trade barriers—or it can be so only on one condition—because aligning with EU law does not reduce trade barriers. The EU itself is very clear about that; the process remains because it is a different legal system. The one condition on which that could be true would be if the UK and the EU reached an agreement that the aligned legislation under this Bill was to be considered as EU law and would be enforced by the Commission and the court—in other words, a Swiss-style arrangement. We have heard chat that that might be what the Government are aiming for in their reset.

In so far as I can see a purpose to the Bill, without the proposed new purpose clause in Amendment 1, it is maybe to prepare the ground for a Swiss-style agreement. Can the Minister, when commenting on this group, confirm or deny whether that is the intention of the Government and the purpose of this legislation? If it is not, it is very hard to see why the Government would not accept the proposed new purpose clause in Amendment 1.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom. I hope that over the course of my remarks I can illuminate the rationale for the amendment, for the benefit of my noble friend Lord Deben. This amendment is not about relitigating the Brexit battles. It is about holding the Government’s feet to the fire in a Bill that is deeply flawed. It is found to be deeply flawed by your Lordships’ Constitution Committee and delegated legislation committee—more of that later.

The two reasons that Ministers should look benignly on this amendment are that it is not substantially at odds with the Bill’s raison d’être and it is not only a noble aspiration of the Government. The Government were concerned—indeed, the previous Government were also concerned—that they did not have sufficient powers to respond to the EU’s regulatory initiatives efficaciously and that this would have negative trade consequences. It is perfectly proper that the Government seek to address that issue.

The fundamental problem of the Bill is that it does not articulate how far the Government intend to exercise the wide-scale, sweeping enabling powers in favour of alignment with the European Union only, and not other jurisdictions. For that reason this amendment should receive the support of your Lordships’ House. It is a purpose clause and a fundamental issue. I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I stray into the remit of Amendment 2. They are very similar and both look at Clause 1.

Before I go any further, I thank the Minister for how congenial and open he has been in engaging with all sides of the House—including our friends on the Liberal Democrat Benches—in seeking to improve the Bill and have a proper debate. Although there is no specific mention of dynamic alignment in the Bill, my noble friend Lord Frost makes a very astute point on whether the Government are moving towards a Swiss-style agreement—multiple bilateral agreements—which would potentially not be in the best interests of the UK as a much larger and more substantial economy than Switzerland.

The Minister should accept that our amendment seeks clarity, certainty and an explicit purpose, without undermining the concept of improving the regulation of products and metrology. This is not one giant statutory instrument. It is a piece of primary legislation. It is quite sensible to have the purpose of that legislation explicitly set out. It has an impact in terms of protecting the autonomy of the UK as an independent trading nation. As my noble friend Lord Hannan of Kingsclere made clear in Parliamentary Questions earlier, adopting a regulatory regime over which we have no effective influence, input or sanction is not a sensible way to proceed. It would certainly circumscribe our capacity to make new, advantageous trade arrangements with countries—not just those outside the EU but others that will come into the EU as new members subsequently.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, chunters that “It would be in our interest” from a sedentary position. That is a value judgment.

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Moved by

[Lord Frost]

5: Clause 1, page 1, line 9, leave out subsection (2)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes from the Bill the broadly-drawn power to align with EU environmental regulation.

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I will also speak to the several other amendments in my name in this group. I thank my noble friends Lord Sharpe, Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Lady Lawlor, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for supporting them. The provisions we are now considering are the core of the Bill—the novel provisions granting Ministers unprecedented powers by secondary legislation to align our laws with those of the European Union. This is a significant constitutional matter that you would probably not have been aware of if you had relied only on the Bill’s Title. I will try to be brief about the groups of amendments I have tabled, which cover different aspects of the problem generated by Clause 1(2) and Clause 2(7) and (8).

--- Later in debate ---

I hope I have reassured noble Lords. This is not a sinister approach to simply completely align ourselves with the EU on all matters to do with these issues. It is pragmatic, and business wants it and consumers want it. I hope the noble Lord will not press his amendment.

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I have listened with care and interest to the eloquent words of the Minister, but I am sorry to say that I have not found them particularly reassuring. I suspect that that will not surprise him, and I will not dwell on the reasons now.

There is perhaps a contradiction between his attempt to say that all this Bill does is give the power to align with EU rules—so where is the problem with that?—and his then going on to say that everybody wants to align with EU rules: businesses want it, consumers want it, allegedly, and we have a Government who want it. I therefore think that this power will in fact be used rather extensively, however reassuring the Minister seeks to be now.

On a point of detail, the Minister said—and it was said before in Committee—that the Bill does not allow dynamic alignment. I simply cannot see what that statement is based on. The Bill seems very capable of allowing dynamic alignment, and I cannot see any provision which would preclude it. I will just leave that hanging.

I will make two brief final points. I expect to test the opinion of the House on some of these amendments, one of which is Amendment 11, and so I want to respond to the point made by my noble friend Lord Lansley. I do not believe that there should be a specific UK-only rule for every manufactured good—that does not make sense. We have an opportunity to look at rules from around the world and align with them, and indeed we do just that in pharma regulation. The MHRA has a new explicit provision, the international recognition procedure, which allows accelerated recognition of products that have been approved in other jurisdictions, not just the EU but the US, Japan, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Singapore and so on. If it can be done there, I cannot see any reason, in principle, why it could not be done more widely.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I do not think we live in a world of plots—although perhaps one person’s plot is another person’s vigilance. Certainly, we have learned over the years just how many people are not particularly confident or comfortable with this country’s self-government and want to see it undermined. We are right to be careful and to look at the detail. On the basis of what I have heard so far, I am not particularly reassured. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 5 withdrawn.