Social Housing Sector

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Thursday 14th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, the review to which the Minister refers is extremely welcome. Has he heard the news that the major housing associations providing extra care housing for older people, which saves the state an enormous amount of money in hospital and residential care fees, have put their programmes on hold awaiting the outcome of this review? If he has heard that news, could he respond to the urgency of the situation?

[Lord Freud]

We are talking to the relevant supported housing associations—it is a variegated sector. There are a couple of issues that are concerning them at the moment, and this is one of them. We are looking, as we develop a dialogue, to get a policy that works for this sector as soon as we possibly can.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Monday 21st December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The noble Earl will be aware that an enormous amount of research is conducted in this area. I will write to him with anything specific that I can on our research proposals.

[Lord Best]

I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this mini debate, and particularly the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie of Luton and Lord Kerslake, for their contributions to one of the key housing aspects of the wider debate on the benefit cap. The noble Lord has found a fundamental flaw, as he sees it, in the argument in favour of temporary accommodation being exempted: that there will be no incentive for those who are placed in such accommodation to move for the full 39 weeks, because as soon as they do they will no longer be exempt from the cap. This is a consideration I shall have to ponder in some depth, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for explaining it. I fear that the position already is not that the vast majority of people will not be affected by this arrangement, because we know that an awful lot of families are being moved well away from the place where they are most likely to get a job, where their children go to school and where they have their family and friends close by to help them. A high proportion of families are now having to move a long way away because of the need to keep down the cost of temporary accommodation. We will have to think some more about this issue, but in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Tuesday 3rd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The noble Baroness is right that there is quite a lot of variation in the regional responses. I gave the example of the north-west, where there had been a reduction of 22%. The two regions that have reduced the smallest amount in England and Wales are the north-east, and Yorkshire and Humber. Other areas, such as London, the east of England and the north-west are the outliers on the upside. The other two have had the least-efficient response to this policy.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, I know that the Minister feels immense sympathy for those people who are unable to move, such as the tenants in Knowsley, where I was on Friday, who cannot downsize even though they wish to. They have taken a big hit in their standard of living. Will he join with me in commending the resilience and fortitude of those families that have taken a drop in income as a result of the so-called bedroom tax and borne a disproportionate share of the burden of deficit reduction?

[Lord Freud]

The noble Lord is quite right to make the point that this is about deficit reduction, for which this has been an important policy. It has now had savings of £1 billion over that period. People have had a range of responses, but the most important is that many people have gone into work or moved off the benefits system, mainly by going into work. That is 70,000 of the 90,000 reduction.

Housing: Under-occupancy Charge

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Tuesday 16th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

There are a substantial number of homes available each year. There are about 1.4 million single-bedroom social housing homes and, on the HomeSwapper site, there are now 55,000 one-bedroom homes and 142,000 two-bedroom homes to swap into.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate those housing associations on keeping down their arrears through very heavy investment and a lot of hard work. I congratulate the Minister on producing and continuing to produce large sums of discretionary housing payments, which have been very important in alleviating some of the misery caused by the so-called bedroom tax. Will the Minister confirm that, although they obviously reduce the savings to the Treasury, the discretionary housing payments, which have saved a lot of people, will continue at their current levels or at higher levels in future?

[Lord Freud]

The current year figure is running at £125 million, which is very high and up substantially—by more than £100 million—on the figures that we were looking at in 2010. I obviously cannot make any commitment at this stage on its future levels—that will go into a spending review—but clearly this has been an important way of making sure that this policy goes in without the kind of impacts that some people were concerned about.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Best]

Will the Minister confirm that when the space standards were introduced in the private sector, the measure was not retrospective and did not apply to all people already occupying the properties? Does he accept that it is quite different in this case, where it was applied to the lettings of existing tenants, which is why it has been so harmful and so hurtful?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I have told the House on previous occasions that the difference here is that there is very little changeover or moving within this particular group, so there is no way in which one could introduce this kind of policy on that kind of basis. It therefore has to apply to stock. I remind noble Lords that the impact assessment for this measure envisaged moving or downsizing on the part of about 50,000 people. Nineteen thousand people have moved during the first eight months, which is on the trajectory of our expectations.

Housing: Discretionary Housing Payment

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Wednesday 9th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, has the Minister had a chance to see the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report released today, which provides a fairly definitive analysis of what has been going on with the so-called bedroom tax over the past six months? If he has, did he note that—sadly, from one perspective—savings were about £115 million less than had been hoped for during the course of this year? About 6% of people have moved home, but another 22% have been trying to move home but have not been able to downsize, because there is not accommodation for them. Although the Rowntree report from Professor Wilcox predicts that over £330 million will be saved this year, sadly, that is at a pretty great cost to both tenants and landlords.

[Lord Freud]

The savings that we are looking at—which are running on the Budget scoring at £490 million—are both observable and unobservable; in other words, from people moving or from people taking up jobs and coming off benefits. There are various figures around. The BBC last week talked of 6% of people moving in 11 months; the JRF report, which the noble Lord has just cited, talked about 6% in six months; a report a couple of months ago from Harry Phibbs, doing a similar job, found that 11% had come off benefits because they had gone into work. We will have proper returns on discretionary housing payments in May, and are working on getting a proper report on all of this.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Monday 20th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, this is a substantial saving, as my noble friend says. Our central estimate is that we will save £500 million a year on this programme, which makes it an important contributor to the Government’s deficit plan. If the Opposition maintain their policy, they need to look at how to find that money back. Not only that, they will run the risk of having to have a similar policy in the private rented sector.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, has the Minister had a chance to read the report from the Defra Select Committee, chaired by Anne McIntosh MP in the other place? It recommends that rural communities should be exempt from the bedroom tax because it is so difficult for people in rural areas to move down to smaller premises. Staying put means they can be paying £25 a week that they were not paying before, creating a great deal of hardship. Has the Minister had a chance to read that report and react to it?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I have looked very closely at the issue of rural communities. That was why, this year, we put in an extra £5 million a year to handle the subsidy arrangements, which buys out a substantial proportion of the cost of this policy.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Thursday 12th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right that personal debt in this country is a major problem. There has been a series of important reviews of that in recent weeks. I am looking at it very closely in the context in particular of the introduction of universal credit. That is one of the factors in the review that I mentioned in response to the last question and I will keep it very much in mind.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, will the noble Lord join me in correcting a mistaken view that some have expressed that reducing support for people in council houses and housing association properties who are deemed to have a spare room is only repeating a measure already in place for private sector tenants? Does he agree that the arrangements for private sector tenants are quite different, in that people are given a sum of money—the maximum that they can spend—and are sent out to find a property on the private market, balancing the number of bedrooms against the location and other factors? In particular, a major difference between the two sectors is that in the private rented sector these measures apply only to new and future tenancies and have not been applied retrospectively to people in existing tenancies—namely, the 660,000 people who find themselves covered by a measure that relates to the past and not, as in the private sector, one that relates to future tenancies.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, clearly there is a difference between the structures of the social and the private rented sector arrangements but the objective is the same. The taxpayer provides the appropriate amount of money to house that individual or family in the same way in the private rented sector as in the social rented sector.

Housing: Under-occupancy Charge

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Monday 21st October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it is simply premature to come to any conclusions as to the level of arrears. We will, of course, provide that information when we have the kind of reliable information that this House requires me, as a Minister, to deliver. There have been various surveys, but the samples are just too narrow. There are 1.4 million one-bedroom properties in the social rented sector and we are looking to have those managed more efficiently. I remind noble Lords that the scare stories about what would happen to our LHA reforms were very similar to the kind of stories that are being propagated now and we have not seen any poor reaction in terms of homelessness as a result of those reforms.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, in relation to the evidence that the Minister mentions, can he give us an update on the consultation with me and others that he promised when noble Lords rejected the so-called bedroom tax repeatedly and firmly? When will that research programme be the subject of consultation with us? When is it likely to be concluded? Will he accept the evidence if it shows that what he calls the “scare stories” turn out to be true and that a good deal of disruption and hardship are caused by this measure?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, an elaborate programme of research is going on around this measure and will take place over a two-year period. Regular reports will be provided. I believe that the first interim reports are coming out in the spring. I will, of course, be pleased to talk to the noble Lord about the research and will give a great deal of attention to what we find. If there are concerns, we will match them. As noble Lords will know, we have made changes to the discretionary housing payments system this year to reflect some of the early concerns that have developed and we have found an extra £35 million for that.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we have to look at these things in the round, as we did with the Bill. The reality is that we had a range and we set the provision at an affordable level within that range. Noble Lords may argue that saving money is a cynical thing to do but, as I say, we had a range and we set the provision within the range. We have found the money to ameliorate the measure through the discretionary housing payments process.

My noble friend Lord Newton made an important point about changing circumstances. We have rules within housing benefit to protect people when their circumstances change. Among those changes are going into hospital, being on remand and the death of a member of a household which would result in a reduction in housing benefit. Those same rules will apply in the social rented sector and provide protection for such claimants. For example, housing benefit currently provides 12 months’ protection from rent restrictions where there is bereavement, so there are ways of dealing with such circumstances.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, referred to couples who have health problems. I re-emphasise the point that they would not be pensioners by definition as they are excluded from this measure, so we are talking about couples of working age. Clearly, if there is real difficulty in that regard and separate bedrooms are required, where discretionary housing payments would be considered, and where the couple required an overnight carer, whether non-resident or otherwise, the size criteria would be increased to provide additional room. However, we should consider what happens to people who are renting in the private sector. These situations are already faced by more than 1 million people—I think it is 1.3 million people—renting in the private housing sector.

This is part of a package of reforms to keep the housing benefit bill under control. I have never tried to disguise that in any way. This is a way of trying to control the housing benefit bill that is moving up towards £26 billion, if we do not take the £2 billion of savings across the piece as we are planning to do. That is the saving that we are trying to make within the social rented sector as opposed to the private sector. We are trying to sort out our budget deficit, and we need to make sure that we spread that load right across society in as fair a way as we possibly can.

We realise, obviously, that we need to support tenants, their advisers and housing providers in preparing properly for what is a very substantial change happening in April 2013. Work is well under way to support social housing providers, local authorities and other government departments. An important point raised by my noble friend Lord Kirkwood is the impression that it is all happening on one day. It might be happening on one day, but in practice there is a year before it culminates in which we are aiming to get a very smooth implementation process. We are working closely with the stock team, which is part of the Chartered Institute of Housing, funded by the GLC. We are putting a tool-kit out for local authorities, which involves working on who will be affected; advice on data sharing; allocations policy; tackling worklessness; taking in lodgers; letting spare rooms; reducing arrears; national home-swap schemes; affordable rents; and alternative housing options. We are working on all those areas.

A behavioural response is required right across the piece on something like this. We are looking to help claimants. Those who can must look for a job. Those who are in work can increase earnings by getting more hours. We have discussed taking in a lodger, moving to a smaller property or moving into the private rented sector. Landlords need to have responses. They need to give permission to accept lodgers, identify those affected, communicate changes, train staff, review their allocation policies, look at where the discretionary housing payments need to be made, and so on. There is a range of things on a substantial scale that need to happen, just as the Government have to do a huge amount of work to ensure that they do happen.

We are not expecting the 670,000 people who are affected to move. As I have tried to describe, there are a number of ways in which claimants can make up any shortfall and stay where they are. So I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Best]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to people from all parts of the House who have joined in this debate. My thanks go to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who has been tireless in supporting this amendment and so many others during the course of this Bill; to the noble Lord, Lord Newton, who has been a hero in bringing common sense and good judgment to this Bill at all kinds of stages; to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds for his support; and to the noble Lord, Lord German, who raised a number of important points. Perhaps I could respond to his point that 1 million bedrooms—I am not sure whether he actually quoted this number—are underoccupied in the social housing sector, and that it would be good if we could get those used. In this country there are, I think, 6.8 million empty bedrooms in houses where there is already one spare room. We have lots and lots of spare rooms, but they are in the owner-occupied sector, and nobody is suggesting that we levy a bedroom tax on the occupiers in the owner-occupied sector—quite rightly; I absolutely would oppose that. However, on council estates now, people who have exercised the right to buy and are homeowners are living next door to tenants in identical circumstances. One of them will be penalised and one of them will not.

I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, for his contribution and indeed to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. I single out the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, because he has brought the expertise of a previous Minister on this key issue to all of our debates and has been more than helpful to me in my formulation of the amendments that we have before us today.

I was greatly encouraged when the Minister said that the cost of this has come down from the earlier amendment, which found favour with your Lordships and did not do so badly in the other place. The cost has come down from some £300 million to about £100 million. I think the Minister said up to £100 million. This, I agree, is serious money, but it is set against the savings in housing benefit that the Minister mentioned again that he is seeking to achieve of over £2 billion. The £100 million is for particularly vulnerable and low-income households. I was not convinced by the argument from our earlier debates in Committee for the increase in the amount that will be charged each week. It will rise from £13 per week to £14 per week, which happens to be the amount required to find a further £30 million of discretionary housing payments. That, I fear, has meant that we are robbing Peter to pay Paul. We are charging another 50 quid to everybody else to pay for the ways in which we can exempt certain people, people in houses that have been expensively adapted, and indeed those who regularly have foster children in the home. That is excellent, but it is being paid for by pushing up the total bedroom tax for everybody else to £728 a year. That is three-and-a-half times the winter fuel payment, for example. That is a serious amount for people on the lowest incomes to find.

I do understand the pressures on the Minister to help the Government achieve deficit reduction, but I see it as incumbent on us in this House to take a stand, even a modest one, to draw a line where deficit reduction is at the expense of many thousands of the very poorest households. We have to say: so far, and no further. Applying the bedroom tax to these vulnerable groups, set out in this amendment, where there is no opportunity for those on very low incomes to avoid the tax, is going too far. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Best]

My Lords, Amendment 8 gives effect to an amendment which was in my name on Report and to an amendment to my amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, at that stage. These amendments, which addressed the cuts to housing benefit and universal credit for those deemed to have a spare room, were declared to be consequential amendments to two earlier amendments approved by your Lordships on 14 December and now incorporated in Clause 11.

However, the consequential amendments were not moved formally. They should have been. I fear that the complexities of consequential amendments and of amendments to amendments meant that this amendment is now required. With apologies, I beg to move the amendment formally.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I accept that Amendment 8 from the noble Lord, Lord Best, is a duplicate of previous Amendments 49 and 49A, which related to Clause 68 and should have been formally moved during Report stage. We find the veil and draw it as to why they were not. The Government acknowledge that it was the view of the House, following the vote on the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, on 14 December, to have those amendments made. Essentially Amendment 8, which is a duplicate of Amendments 49 and 49A, would mean that a reduction is not possible where the tenant has no more than one spare bedroom unless suitable alternative accommodation, which is to be defined in regulations, provided by a local housing authority or registered provider of social housing is available. I am clear that to complete that picture Amendments 49 and 49A should also have been made.

The Government regret that the House reached such a conclusion on the social sector size criteria. While I do not intend to oppose these amendments now, I should make it clear to this House that this is not an indication that the Government agree with the overall principle of the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Best. It is now for another place to consider this when the Bill returns there.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Monday 23rd January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, one can very easily see circumstances in which a local authority considers that to be a very sensible use of the discretionary housing payments. That is one reason why we have ramped up that amount. I am not saying that it will be every time, but that might be a solution. We are looking to redesign the process of finding temporary accommodation, which is the immediate problem that local authorities are faced with, so that we do not get caught in some Catch-22, which would obviously not be smart at all. That is where we are with that; we are very conscious of those issues and very comfortable that we have the legislative powers to develop effective solutions.

I pick up the important point from my noble friend Lady Thomas on the DLA and how the cap interacts with it. The DLA is there for those in receipt of DLA. That is how we have worded the illustrative regulations. A person whose DLA award is pending and who is serving what is now, and will remain, a three-month qualifying period, would not be covered by the exemption. That is the point in the question raised by my noble friend. It shows why this issue and other similar issues need to be dealt with in secondary legislation, so that we do not have the inflexibility that we would have if it was in primary legislation.

We are conscious of the concerns around the introduction of the cap. I can assure noble Lords that we are listening. We have said all along that we will introduce measures to ease the transition for families and provide assistance in hard cases. We are still considering our plans, and it is essential that we get them right. The clause has been drafted so that we have all the powers that we need to ensure through regulations that we provide the appropriate protections. I hope that that gives the noble Lord, Lord Best, a measure of reassurance.

Before I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment, I would like to make it clear that the Government do not consider Amendments 60A and 61 to be directly consequential on Amendment 60. Further Divisions would be required should noble Lords wish to push those other two amendments in the group to a vote. I apologise for spelling that out, but we had a small frisson the other week. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Best]

My Lords, I am sure talk of further Divisions will be unnecessary at this late hour. I am very grateful to many noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, for supporting my amendment on the 26-week period of grace. She made the point that we cannot possibly require behavioural change from people who are already desperately seeking work, which is what we want them to do. I was also grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham of Droxford, in backing this amendment. People with no history of benefit dependency should surely be given a period of grace to find work.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, made the point that perhaps 52 weeks would be better than 26 as a period to allow people to get back into work, especially given the statistics we heard—that 50 per cent of people who go on to jobseeker’s allowance find a job within six months, but if we want to get 90 per cent back into work it may take a year in the current job market.

This remains a very important ingredient in the use of the cap. The Minister has promised that finding a solution is a priority and that a period of grace to ease the transition is one way of handling this, but there may be an even cleverer way. The Minister says that the issue still needs to be looked at very carefully but is confident that a way will be found. I must take this on trust, but with the expectation that there will indeed be measures that handle this transition and satisfy the House when the regulations, although those cannot be amended, are brought before us.

I am also grateful for noble Lords’ support on the amendment to make sure that temporary accommodation does not become a Catch-22 situation whereby homeless people are sent somewhere by the council, only to find when they get there that they are not able to pay the rent because the benefit cap has kicked in. That would be a calamity for them. I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, for weighing in on that one and to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for asking for further clarification.

The Minister explained that we need to find a way, and he is confident we shall find one, of handling this exemption or exclusion, or in some way treating temporary accommodation differently and in a satisfactory way. I trust him to be as good as his word and I have pleasure in withdrawing these amendments.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Best]

I support the amendment. We already have up and running, thanks to the good work of the Minister, a really first-class piece of research looking at the impact of the housing benefit changes on families, poverty and a whole range of issues. I strongly congratulate him on taking that suggestion seriously and bringing forward a significant piece of research. It engaged a consortium of the top people at Oxford University, Sheffield Hallam University, Ipsos MORI polling and the IFS. I wondered whether that team might have its work somewhat extended to embrace the research suggested by the noble Baroness. It would not involve quite as much work because it would examine the 150,000 or so households that will now be affected by the underoccupancy arrangements. There is much important research to take place.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I acknowledge and commend the contributions of the noble Baroness and the noble Lord to the debate on policy. Both of them, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Best, played an important role setting up the independent research that the department has already commissioned around the local housing allowance. More recently, as noble Lords are aware, we have announced research looking at direct payments in the social rented sector. However, I must complain bitterly at the improvement to the negotiating position of the consortium that the noble Lord mentioned. When we carry out research, we always have open competition and no one is favoured. We choose the best researchers.

I place real value on independent research. We need robust evaluation on the impact of welfare reform on housing provision. I know that we are taking some steps in housing benefit reform where we need to monitor the risks. I know that there are risks, and we have all discussed them. That is why proper research, considered properly and taken very seriously, is right at the heart of the protections that we are looking at in this area.

I fully support the intention behind this powerful amendment. I want to go on record as saying that. I can tell noble Lords that the department is currently in the process of planning its research programme for 2012-13 onwards, subject, I have to add, to available funding—and I hope that noble Lords do not take that away from me in other ways. I intend to cover the size criteria and underoccupancy in housing benefit. We are considering separately how to evaluate universal credit. Noble Lords will be aware of the constant-piloting clause that we approved in Committee, which provides for a radically new way of looking at this important benefits system.

All research commissioned by the department is published. I am sure that noble Lords will accept that it is not necessary to provide for this research in the Bill. I know that this is a probing amendment and we will look to providing this research at the right time. With those reassurances, I hope that the amendment can be withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

I am saying that we are working really hard with the banks and the banking community to make sure that we have an escrow arrangement of that nature, and we are doing this at several levels. We can have a general agreement, which I shall discuss with the banks as a whole, to provide a generalised protection. However, I am quite interested in getting particular banking products that will provide a simple bank account and elaborating on what could be a new level of support for some of the poorest people in our community. We have a one-off chance with universal credit to ramp up support for the poorer people in our community, and we are putting a lot of energy into achieving that. I have talked about this before. It is one of the hidden gains that we can get out of the introduction of this new system. Rather than people living on drips of money from here and there, we can really start to help them, supporting them in managing their finances and getting true independence. This is a core part of what we are going to be doing with universal credit, and part of that relates to housing. Housing will be a major part of people’s total income stream. We are not doing this for fun or to annoy anyone; this is absolutely part of what we are trying to do with universal credit.

I need to deal with one other point—the issue of safeguards raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. We are concerned about the safety and welfare of claimants and, where we have a concern, we need to put direct payments in place. There are vulnerable groups who are not able to manage the potential freedoms, and for them we will make sure that we go on with existing arrangements for direct payments.

We have commissioned a consortium led by Professor Paul Hickman—I am sorry, but this is a bit of an announcement late at night—from the Centre for Regional Economic and Social Research at Sheffield Hallam University to evaluate the effects of direct payments to claimants in the six demonstration project areas, which I shall announce soon. The other key team members are Dr Kesia Reeve, Peter Kemp of the Oxford Institute of Social Policy, and Stephen Finlay from Ipsos MORI, names that I know that the noble Lord, Lord Best, approves of. That will give us a cumulative understanding of the impacts of direct payments and inform the detail of delivery under universal credit.

Research published by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation in 2007, Paying Housing Benefit to Claimants, on both private and social tenants’ experiences of and their hypothetical attitude toward the management of their own housing benefit confirms that a significant proportion of social tenants have the potential to manage their own housing benefit payments. We will also have an advisory group for the demonstration projects and a wide range of local government, money advice, voluntary sector and other external stakeholders who will be invited to join that group.

We had a slight exchange about what “choice” means and we have been teasing each other about the imbalance of power when you have choice. It concerns us that while there is theoretical choice today, only 5 per cent of people take it. As it stands, tenant choice does not go far enough, which is why I am concerned about it. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Best, will accept that we are making incredible efforts here to be transformative and not to undermine the housing sector, and on that basis will feel that there is enough going on for him to withdraw this amendment.

[Lord Best]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all of those who have joined this debate. I am sure that we all feel much reassured by the passion that the Minister brings to this subject and by the genuine efforts that he is making to see that the behavioural change that he wants is triggered and that the disadvantages of going down this route are mitigated. The excellent research that he is announcing tonight—and I thank him very much for it—might show that it is not possible for only 20 per cent of the tenants within the social sector to be regarded as vulnerable and to have their rent paid directly and that there is a rather larger number.

However, I think the Minister is keeping an open mind as to what proportion of the sector will get their rent paid directly, and I greatly welcome him saying how much he is concerned not to undermine the social housing sector, the production of new homes, the sector’s lending and the security of income within that sector. If those discussions with bankers fail and the products do not materialise, we must place our faith in the Minister and hope that he will recognise that the difficulties still exist and that rent direct to the landlord is going to be necessary for a larger proportion of people. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the best piece of information I can provide the Committee on that question is that it is the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope. I think I am reduced to going back to the basic principle that there should be a limit and we have set that limit at the equivalent of £35,000. We are going round in circles slightly.

[Lord Best]

I thank the Minister for helpful and hopeful words about the transitional arrangements—the 26-week period of grace that was the subject of my amendment. On my other amendments relating to excluding sheltered and supported housing and temporary accommodation, I think the Minister was saying that that was still a work in progress, so my hopes are not dashed on that.

The overarching point that I have repeated a little here is that it is fair enough to have a limit, if the Government, for political or wider reasons, believe it to be necessary, but the limit affects people in very random ways. If you live in a nice three-bedroomed council house in Wales—as I described it earlier—costing £85 a week, you will have £415 left to spend on other things. If you live in a crummy flat in the East End of London at a rent of £325 a week, you will have an awful lot less to spend out of your £500 on all the other things you need. The cap hits people in a rather random way, which is why I have been arguing that we should take housing out of the equation and look at the other factors where the fairness principle might have greater applicability.

The underlying question I would leave with the Minister is: how are we going to manage the movement of people from a high-rent area of the country—they may be in privately rented property or have a number of children—to the cheaper areas of the country? We are looking at something like 200,000 people and 50,000 households. The Minister has suggested that some people will deploy savings, but savings will run out quite quickly if they are being dipped into at an average rate of £93, and for some people up to £150, per week. Such people do not have large amounts of savings and their savings will run out quite quickly. We know it is rather improbable that landlords will drop rents dramatically to cover these and other benefit caps.

In most cases we do not expect people to be going out to work—90 per cent of them are not required to go out to work—so although some might be coerced or incentivised to go out to work, the great majority of the 50,000 will still be in homes where they will not be able to stay because the gap between what they will receive to pay their rent and the rent itself is too wide. They will have to leave. Are we making contingency plans for this movement of a couple of hundred thousand people from the more expensive parts of the south-east and south-west to the inexpensive parts of the country? The move will be expensive.

I pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about the cost of this cap. If people stay put and wait until they are evicted, an eviction will cost the housing association or social landlord something like £9,000. It is not just the legal costs but the fact that when the people move out you have to redecorate the house and you have a period of vacancy. All those things add up. We reckon that an eviction costs about £9,000, but if people go voluntarily and we can move in at the right time and do things in a more sensible way, the cost is about £2,500. However, on average you are looking at the landlord paying several thousand pounds when people move out.

There is also the question of providing education. When people arrive in new areas, their children will need to attend new schools. Social services departments will have to be notified if children are under the care of social workers. All these things will cost an awful lot of money, let alone just the simple transportation of people’s belongings, the cost of their rail fares and the costs involved in searching for a new home. All this is incredibly expensive. If we are to move 200,000 people because we feel, for whatever reason, that it is not fair for them to continue to occupy homes in expensive areas, are we putting in place the contingency plans that the local authorities in particular will need to get their heads around?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for that area of inquiry. We are looking to get early support for families in a number of ways well before the cap comes in. We are looking at a process whereby families on benefit face the same choices that low-income working families face. We are looking to achieve significant behavioural change through this measure. I assure the noble Lord that we are working hard with local authorities and other departments as well as with the devolved Administrations on the implementation of this measure.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Best

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, there seems to be some evidence that landlords were able to benefit from the local housing allowance regime in that we saw its rates go up rather faster than rents for non-housing benefit recipients.

[Lord Best]

May I underline the thanks of everybody who is worried about the impact of housing benefit cuts for the Minister’s action in setting up this independent and rigorous review of the housing benefit consequences? Will he tell the House when it will start, who will be carrying out the review and whether it will include not just people who have to leave because they are evicted or cannot afford the new rent but those who stay put and may face considerable hardship finding the rent from their other benefits and allowances?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am pleased that we have a stunning consortium to do this work. It is led by Ian Cole from the Centre for Regional Economic and Social Research at Sheffield Hallam University, with other key team members being Peter Kemp of the Oxford Institute of Social Policy, Carl Emmerson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies and Ben Marshall from IPSO Mori. It is a stunning group and is going to build an understanding of the impacts of the housing benefit changes right the way through from people who move to those who stay—the noble Lord was concerned about them—at national and local levels, and it will integrate that with wider housing and labour-market evidence. A lot of this will be econometric analysis. The group will report the findings to me finally, as agreed, in spring 2013, but there will be interim reports next year.