Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Lord Freeman and Lord Davies of Stamford

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, I say, first, that the Bill is extremely welcome. It is clear that Clause 2 is very well intended by the Government, but also that there has been a consensus among the contributions in Committee so far this afternoon that it does not go far enough and is inadequate. I congratulate all four supporters and proposers of the amendments who spoke; their contributions were extremely helpful. I will make one or two comments on each, starting with Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar.

I totally agree with him that it is important that we should have professional analysis of the problems in the medical field before we start reporting on how adequate the medical facilities are, either for those who are serving or for those who have served. Clearly, we need to know what the problem is before we can assess the effectiveness of any solution that is proposed or implemented. However, with great respect to the noble Lord, I say that his amendment has it the wrong way round. It is wrong to wait for the stage after the reviewer has produced the review, at the point where the Secretary of State is going to publish the report, to have that specialist professional work done. We should start with that; it should be the evidential basis on which the reviewer works. He should compare the facilities in place with the professional advice on what the facilities ought to be. That work should be done at the outset, and I hope that if the reviewer is doing his job he will commission such work.

Under the proposals tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, my noble friend Lord Touhig and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, as well as in the original draft of the clause, there is provision for the reviewer to receive remuneration. Therefore, I do not see a problem in that. Perhaps we should not tell the reviewer exactly how to do his job, but we should express the hope, here and in other contexts, that he will commission professional work of the kind that has been suggested—or else there should be an obligation on him to commission the work. We should not leave it to the second stage of the Secretary of State.

I find myself entirely in agreement with Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill. I do not know why anybody would disagree with it. The issue is one of making sure that the report covers what progress has been made in the provision of housing. This is not in any way a prescriptive obligation placed on anybody; it is purely descriptive and sets out the facts. I do not see why Parliament should resist a proposal, which is not unreasonably costly, that we should be given the facts when we ask the reviewer to review the state of housing. We need to know the facts relating to the portion of housing that is in the hands of housing associations. I am very much drawn to the proposal.

I turn to Amendment 9, put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Lee of Trafford and Lord Glenarthur, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. At first sight I thought that it was a splendid proposal, but it is a little ambiguous. It states that the covenant report must include a statement that,

“the provisions of the report are compatible with subsection (2)(a)”.

I am not sure what that is intended to mean. Is it that the statements of fact in the reviewer's report are a correct description of the facts in the respective areas of health, education and local government? Or does it mean that any shortcomings that have been identified, and any recommendations that have been made, have been resolved and implemented by the time that the three Secretaries of State signed the statement? It is slightly unclear what is intended. If it is the latter, that has cost implications of a potentially unlimited kind, so the Treasury may see some difficulty in that. If it is merely a matter of the three Secretaries of State explicitly endorsing a description of the facts that the reviewer has uncovered, I see no objection at all: indeed, that would be extremely helpful.

Amendment 2, the key amendment in this group, is in the names of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, and the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Touhig. It is designed to address an obvious inadequacy in Clause 2 as produced by the Government; namely, first, the reviewer has to report only on “healthcare, education and housing” and, secondly,

“such other fields as the Secretary of State may determine”.

We know that “healthcare, education and housing” are not the full picture as far as the covenant is concerned. Several issues have been raised, notably veterans, which is terribly important. But there are also such issues as, for example, coroners’ inquests—this is a big issue which we will need to discuss during these proceedings and has been left out—and many other things.

Another aspect which concerns me is any potential discrimination which may exist against members of the Armed Forces. I am sorry to say that when I chaired the National Recognition of the Armed Forces report some years ago, we uncovered and documented in that report a number of cases of serious discrimination against members of the Armed Forces in this country. Luckily, we have not had incidents of that kind—at least not that I am aware of—in the past few years. But should such a situation arise again, the issue very much should be the target of a report by the reviewer on how the covenant is being implemented. I think that all sides of this Committee are agreed that there are many issues other than those three provided for in Clause 2.

Surely, the idea of the,

“other fields as the Secretary of State may determine”,

is ludicrous. This Bill would be a laughing stock if it went forward in that way. That someone should decide what aspects of fulfilment, responsibilities or behaviour should be reported on would be regarded as ludicrous in any other context and is, indeed, ludicrous in this context. That certainly should not stand.

Therefore, the proposals put forward by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield are very much to be welcomed. I see no obvious difficulties with any of the text of this provision and no reason why I should not support it if it comes to that point. It is again not a provision that places significant financial obligations on the Government. Of course, the reviewer has to be paid and he is allowed to run up some expenses and to pay his staff, which must be reasonable. We have already gone through one aspect of where he may legitimately incur expenses—for example, on professional medical advice. But these are small sums and very small beer. It could hardly be considered to be a serious financial liability.

I hope that the amendment commends itself to the Government. If they were to accept this, I believe that they would find immediately that there was a qualitative enhancement in the credibility and impact of the Bill as it becomes an Act of Parliament. It would make a real, historic change in the way in which this country regards the covenant, to which we all feel an obligation for the men and women who serve in our armed services.

[Lord Freeman]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly about Amendment 2. First, I pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield for raising this whole issue and for speaking so clearly and comprehensively about his amendment. I speak with some trepidation because I spot five former Defence Ministers in Committee and three very distinguished former senior officers in the Armed Forces. But I believe that we need a moment of caution before we separate responsibility for looking at and making sure that the covenant is properly observed and pointing out difficulties and failure to achieve objectives from ministerial responsibility.

Like many of my colleagues of all parties, I speak as having served twice in the Ministry of Defence. I believe strongly that the responsibility of the Secretary of State, through his junior Ministers—Ministers of State and Parliamentary Under-Secretaries—should not be in any way compromised by attempting to shuffle it off to an independent reviewer. This is a bureaucratic point, not one of principle. It is a point about how the Ministry of Defence works.