Deregulation Bill
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Our overriding aim is to ensure that the system is appropriate, proportionate and fair and represents the best value. It is important that we achieve the best outcome for licence fee payers but also that we achieve an appropriate outcome for the BBC. I do not accept that this will necessarily adversely affect the BBC; the whole purpose of the terms of reference is to ensure that all these matters are given due and proper consideration. If the Government’s options were constrained by the proposed amendment, then that might not be the case.
Much of the discussion of the review and the potential changes to the enforcement regime has presumed that the outcome will be a negative one for the BBC. That is simply not the case. Again, I draw noble Lords’ attention to the terms of reference for the review and to the independence from the Government of the lead reviewer. I reiterate that the intended outcome of the review is recommendations that achieve the optimal result for all—licence fee payers, the courts system and the BBC itself. As I have said, the review recommendations will require serious consideration by the Government of the day, and this House will have a further opportunity to scrutinise and approve any proposed changes.
This process will take time; indeed, along with the wider considerations, any changes would be unlikely to be finalised much before 1 April 2017. However, we believe that to tie any changes to a specific date would be a constraint that could delay improvements—I emphasise “improvements”—to the regime for the people that the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern were bringing into their considerations. We should not presume that these are not improvements.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, I have listened very carefully to what my noble friend has said. Basically, if he is saying that any Government, not just this one, can set up an independent review and make any changes to the charter agreement, have they not just obliterated the whole principle of certainty over a 10-year period?
Press Regulation
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble(10 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, as I think is very much part of the principles of Lord Justice Leveson’s report, the issue of seeking recognition is a matter for the self-regulator and the industry. The Government hope very much that the industry and the self-regulator will look at recognition. Through the Crime and Courts Act 2013, Parliament has made clear the incentives there are in looking at recognition, and I hope that with the passage of time and the Recognition Panel being set up, an application would be made.
Lord Fowler (Con)
My Lords, perhaps I may remind my noble friend that 12 months ago, on 18 March 2013, the Prime Minister announced that there was cross-party agreement for a new system. He said:
“My message to the press is now very clear: we have had the debate, now it is time to get on and make this system work”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/3/13; col. 636.]
Will the Government now do all they can to bring this ridiculously long debate to an end? Most important, will they give an assurance that Parliament will have the opportunity to judge whether any arrangements that are agreed will be truly effective and will effectively guard the public interest?
BBC Licence Fee: Non-payment
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to implement the decriminalisation of non-payment of the BBC licence fee.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, the Government recently supported an amendment to the Deregulation Bill concerning licence fee non-payment that sets out a duty for the Secretary of State to ensure a review of the TV licensing enforcement regime and introduces a new power for the Secretary of State to change the sanctions that apply for failing to have a TV licence. Whether to decriminalise non-payment will be considered in the light of the review.
Lord Fowler (Con)
My Lords, although I sympathise with the general argument, I wonder whether my noble friend thinks it is significant that some of the most enthusiastic legal and penal reformers in this area appear to be declared opponents of the BBC. Will the Government ensure that in guarding the interests of those who cannot afford to pay, they do not assist those who can afford to pay but simply want to evade the licence fee?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, in the review, the timing of any such change is crucial. The potential impacts on licence fee payers, the court system, the BBC and businesses must be considered. The review will be thorough. Clearly, it is very important that we achieve the best outcome for licence fee payers, particularly, as my noble friend said, those on lower incomes.
Press Regulation
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Fowler (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the Government’s commitment to take action but I hope that this is the last act. This play has now been running for almost two years and I think that we are all impatient to make progress. Does the Minister agree that this charter will in no way interfere with the freedom of newspapers to express their views and that the concern is, and always has been, about members of the public having their rights directly infringed and the total failure of the previous Press Complaints Commission to do anything about those abuses?
Surely, what we need now is basically very simple. We need an independent and effective commission which is seen as independent and which is checked periodically to ensure that it remains effective. We need that sooner rather than later.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I thank my noble friend. All I can say is that, for the sake of the victims and from the nation’s point of view, I very much hope that this is the final stage of important work to ensure that there is a change in attitude and culture. I think that what we have in place for this week is to show that progress really is intended. It always has been intended. From my discussions with the Secretary of State, I know that she is absolutely clear that we need to make progress. The real essence of why the royal charter was first put forward is to see that the freedom and the independence of the press in terms of its self-regulation ensure that there is this freedom for the press to hold us and others to proper account. As my noble friend has said, abuses should not be part of what the press is undertaking. We need to ensure that we get this up and running and that this abuse does not happen again.
Press Regulation
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble
There was an application to the Privy Council. The cross-party royal charter could not be referred because a number of outstanding points needed to be dealt with, including making it Scottish compliant because on 30 April the Scottish Parliament asked to be included in the matter. That is the position. There is no sense of priority; it is about dealing with the matter through the procedures that are required.
Lord Fowler
In relation to the newspapers’ own scheme, was it not Lord Justice Leveson who warned that over the past half century there have been fine words and promises from the press following similar inquiries and commissions, and frankly we ended up with phone hacking and scandal? Surely what we want this time is for the reality to match the rhetoric and for the Government to ensure that that is the case.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I agree with my noble friend. That is precisely why we are going through the procedures that we are, which we must do for legal reasons. The PressBoF charter will be considered swiftly, as I said. But Parliament has already, as we know, passed two Acts of Parliament—the Crime and Courts Act and the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act. All the recommendations made by Lord Justice Leveson will provide strong and effective incentives for relevant publishers to join a recognised independent self regulator.
Press Regulation
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how it will ensure that the relative merits of the two proposed royal charters on press regulation will be properly compared with one another given that it has been reported today that the relevant Privy Council meetings are likely to be months apart.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, the charter published on 18 March continues to have the support of the three main political parties. The Press Standards Board of Finance has petitioned with an alternative charter and this is being given proper, legally robust consideration in line with the Privy Council process. That will need to include consideration of the merits of the petition in the light of all relevant facts. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport will update the other House on these matters very shortly.
Lord Fowler
In thanking my noble friend for that response, perhaps I may ask him two questions. First, am I right in saying that the effective decision on the press’s proposal for its royal charter will be taken by a group of Ministers who happen to be privy counsellors? It is four months since the beginning of this royal charter process. Why has it taken so long? Given that the Government and Parliament have already rejected the press’s proposals, why do they need until October to give even further consideration to them? Secondly, is the Minister aware that press proprietors are now in the process of setting up their own body in any event and that one story is that they are to begin recruiting staff? Can the Minister therefore tell me just when we will get round to deciding the royal charter which was overwhelmingly approved by Parliament in March? Surely it is that charter, the charter approved by Parliament, which is pre-eminent and the one that we want to see considered and implemented?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
A number of questions were asked, my Lords. We have to undertake due processes as regards the PressBoF charter application. One reason for the timing of that is that none of the detailed preliminary work with the relevant government departments and other interested parties that normally precedes a formal petition of the Privy Council has been undertaken. Indeed, that period of openness has resulted in 19,000 responses. Due processes have to be undertaken. That is the legal advice to which it is important to adhere. As for the Government’s charter, work is continuing on the outstanding points. I will perhaps go into them in further detail later, but work is being undertaken on the Government’s proposals. As for the press proprietors’ considerations, this is a matter for the Privy Council, not a matter for the press proprietors. The Privy Council will go through the due processes that are required. They may be lengthy or arcane to some, but they must be undertaken.
Leveson Inquiry: Report
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the proposals put forward by a number of newspapers in response to the Leveson inquiry report.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, the Press Standards Board of Finance petitioned the Privy Council Office with a draft royal charter on 30 April. A royal charter of this kind, submitted to the Privy Council, must go through due process. It has been published on the Privy Council website for people to offer views. Thereafter, it will be considered against the criteria published by the Privy Council Office. The Government’s view on the cross-party royal charter has not changed.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, so that we can be absolutely clear about the position, is it that the delay has been purely to allow the Privy Council to consider the newspapers’ alternative proposal for a royal charter but that the Government remain absolutely committed to their own charter, which was approved unanimously by MPs in the other place? Surely the point is that in a democracy it is the will of Parliament that should take precedence over any interest group, however powerful.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, as I mentioned, there will need to be due processes for the Pressbof royal charter to be considered. However, the royal charter published on 18 March continues to have cross- party support, and the support of all party leaders. It was the subject of 21 weeks of discussion and negotiation. The Government believe it would put in place a system of independent self-regulation with a robust system of redress, while protecting the freedom of the press.
Leveson Inquiry
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint the noble Baroness but, as I said earlier, this will be the subject of debate in the other place, and it would be unreasonable to answer now. It would be a courtesy to the Prime Minister and the other leaders if those matters were left for later this afternoon.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, perhaps I may ask a question on Leveson that is not dependent on this afternoon’s events. My noble friend will remember that there was a majority of more than 130 on the Leveson-related amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, to the Defamation Bill. He will also remember that a number of people totally overreacted to that and alleged that the Government would withdraw the whole Bill. Will my noble friend confirm that that is not the intention of the Government; that it never has been their intention; and that the Defamation Bill will go through its normal parliamentary process?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I well understand the point that my noble friend raises about the Defamation Bill and its progress, and I am sure that these matters will be clarified.
Media: Press Regulation
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to establish by royal charter a body to assure effective regulation of the press.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, as I said at this Dispatch Box yesterday, we need to see tougher press regulation. That is why my right honourable friend the Culture Secretary published a draft royal charter, setting out how tougher regulation might operate. It provides an independent panel to assess whether or not the press regulator meets demanding recognition criteria. This is a matter for continuing discussion between the three main political parties.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are manifold defects in the royal charter process, in that it hands over power to Ministers and will require 10 pages of legislation to implement? Could I ask him an even more fundamental question? According to the published guidance of the Privy Council,
“the grant of new Charters is comparatively rare. New grants of Royal Charters are these days reserved for eminent professional bodies or charities which have a solid record of achievement”.
Is it not curious that at this time of all, when we have had phone hacking and the worst press scandals for 50 years, we should be contemplating this step? If we are going to recognise anybody just now, might it not be the victims of press intrusion?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, the very first thing, as I said yesterday, is that we need to ensure—and we all seek to ensure—that what happened never happens again. On the point that my noble friend makes about the charter, I have looked into the number of charters, and there are hundreds of them covering a wide range of varieties. They are a vehicle for setting up a legal body. I say to my noble friend that we are seeking to achieve an upgrading and enhancing of the professional standards of the press. We have excellent men and women working in the press, and we have a few people who have let that profession down very badly indeed.
Press Regulation
Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Gardiner of Kimble(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Fowler
My Lords, perhaps my noble friend’s words about the victims would have more force had not the victims rejected the particular course being proposed. The original objection of government Ministers—or perhaps I should say, some government Ministers—to the Leveson proposals was that it required legislation. Now the impression is given that under the royal charter no legislation is required. However, is it not the case that legislation, and quite controversial legislation at that, is required both on costs and on damages to make the royal charter work? As that is the case, would we not have been better to have agreed to Lord Justice Leveson’s proposals and added the very modest statutory underpinning that he proposed?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I understand and know that my noble friend has a long-standing view about legislation. The point about the royal charter is that it is, in fact, the most speedy way in which we could address this matter and come to a conclusion, and I understand and very much hope that the cross-party talks tomorrow are going to discuss the detail of the royal charter. This is a draft, and copies of the papers are in the Printed Paper Office. I am starting to look through them because there is much merit in this avenue to deal with the concerns that have been expressed. I very much commend the detail of the royal charter, which is very different from many of the royal charters that noble Lords are aware of. On a range of issues, from the BBC to professional bodies, it is a different sort of proposal.