Palace of Westminster Restoration and Renewal Programme: Spending
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Baroness Rawlings
To ask the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body how much money is being spent on the Palace of Westminster Restoration and Renewal Programme per week; and what is it being spent on.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the spokesperson of the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body is the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market.
Covid-19: Economy
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
Lord Sharkey. No? I call the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings.
Baroness Rawlings (Con)
My Lords, what is essential? Does the Minister agree that mental stability is vital for prosperity and well-being? If so, does she agree that gardening and the arts are essential for the mind, just as food is for the body, to keep this nation prosperous and sane and to save lives?
Baroness Penn
The Government are very conscious of the impact that this pandemic may be having on people’s mental health and well-being. That is something that we will take into account as we look at the social distancing measures that we have in place. I know that many arts organisations are undertaking a lot of innovative work to bring arts into people’s homes. With regard to garden centres, we are working closely with the Horticultural Trades Association to see what can be done as we look at the easing of these measures.
Phone Hacking
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
My Lords, on phone hacking generally, has my noble friend noticed that there is now a campaign to deny the importance of the Leveson inquiry by some in the press who say that the matter should be left to the press to sort out for itself? Is it not the past failure of the press to take action that has led to this independent inquiry? Is its importance not further underlined by the mounting evidence that the phone hacking scandal extends beyond the News of the World to other papers?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, my noble friend is very expert in these matters and has gone to the core of the subject. The failure of some of the press to abide by the law has been evident. Regarding the Leveson inquiry, we all recognise the importance for our democratic process of a free and effective press that acts with integrity. That is what we all want. However, at the same time, we have to acknowledge that certain parts of the press have not abided by the law or the self-regulatory code to which they voluntarily signed up. As my noble friend says, it is the failures that the Leveson inquiry will seek to address.
Media: Ownership
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, yet again the noble and learned Baroness raises a very technical and important point. This follows our extensive correspondence about Section 58(3) and (4) of the Enterprise Act 2002, all letters relating to which have been placed in the Library. With all due respect to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, we may not agree on specific points, but I want to clarify that there is already a requirement on Ofcom to make certain that anyone holding a broadcasting licence is and remains a fit and proper person. I again stress that this is an ongoing requirement and not one limited just to a merger situation. I am most grateful to the noble and learned Baroness for raising this important point again and we will consider it. The Secretary of State is not refusing to act; he will bring this up at the Communications Bill committee while also awaiting the results of the Leveson inquiry.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that over the past 10 years, and way before that, Governments and media owners have become far too close to each other? Would it therefore not be sensible to ensure that Ministers do not make the final decisions in media takeovers?
Baroness Rawlings
My noble friend makes a very good point. He has brought it up before and he knows that the Secretary of State agrees with it. The Secretary of State said this in his speech in Edinburgh on the Royal Television Society. He said that he wanted to explore this option in more detail and welcomed any views. At the same time, he will take into account the recommendations of the Leveson inquiry before making any final decisions. This is on the table and I am pleased that my noble friend has brought it up.
BBC: Licence Fee
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to review the BBC licence fee.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, the Government have no immediate plans to review the cost of the BBC licence fee. Under the terms of the October 2010 current licence fee settlement, the Government are committed to providing a full financial settlement to the end of the year 2016-17. No new financial requirements or fresh obligations of any kind will be placed on the BBC and/or licence fee revenues in this period except by mutual agreement.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is significant public concern today that a single media company should not have disproportionate influence? That is normally said about News International, but is it not the case that in national radio news and accompanying radio programmes such as the “World at One”, “Today” and “PM”, the BBC has an overwhelmingly strong position? Will the Government therefore give consideration for future policy on how outside competitors may be introduced, possibly by earmarking a small part of the licence fee for that purpose?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very valid point, which I would expect from him with all his knowledge and consistent interest in broadcasting. The Question clearly addresses the next stage from his previous Question in your Lordships' House on the licence fee in October 2010. Following the phone hacking issue, he is right that plurality continues to be on the agenda. That needs to include all media and I understand his wish for more independent radio providers. Indeed, local commercial radio stations provide a wide range of national and local news—around 8 million minutes of news every year. We believe, too, that there are a number of ways of supporting such news provision and we will consider these in the forthcoming communications review.
Media: Ownership
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans for changing the media ownership rules in the United Kingdom.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, we need a full and thorough consideration of all aspects of media ownership legislation. The Secretary of State has asked Ofcom to examine what are the best options for measuring media plurality and to recommend the appropriate approach. We will of course be taking into account the recommendations of the Leveson inquiry before any final decision is taken on media ownership.
Lord Fowler
I thank my noble friend for that reply, but is it not the case that too often in the past decisions on media ownership have been influenced by political considerations? Given that, does my noble friend agree that it is totally wrong that, as at present, politicians should have the final say on who owns the media, and that if we want to prevent too much power resting in the hands of one company that system should be changed—and changed as quickly as possible?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I would like to be able to give a more positive answer to my noble friend Lord Fowler but, as he and many noble Lords know only too well, we are at present having sensitive discussions. He is aware, too, that there is new legislation in the pipeline and we will be receiving a new communications Bill during this Parliament. However, I agree with him, as does the Secretary of State, that too much political consideration has been taken, and as a result the Secretary of State said on 14 September at the Royal Television Society conference that he was looking at whether we should have the same approach for media plurality law as we do for competition law. It could be better for these decisions not to be taken by politicians, as my noble friend so rightly said, and we are exploring this option. These are early days and no decisions have been taken. As I said, we will consider the recommendations on this.
Phone Hacking
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
My Lords, perhaps I may concentrate on the important questions that my noble friend raised in the first part of the Statement—on the police investigation, on why the first police investigation failed so abysmally, and on the practices and ethics of the press—although I obviously very much welcome the decision on the Competition Commission.
I knew—if I may say so kindly to my noble friend—that the time would come when she would agree with me on the need for a public inquiry. I have now been given two, which is extremely kind of her. More seriously, having reached this point, does she agree with me, particularly in light of some of the comments of the noble and learned Baroness opposite, that it is in no one’s interest at all that this becomes a party-political issue, for we might just remember that virtually everything complained of took place under the watch of the party opposite when they were in government and, furthermore, that the only reason that News Corp is able to pursue a bid for full control of BSkyB is because, after lobbying, the controls that prevented such a bid—and had prevented such a bid for years—were scrapped by the Communications Act 2003. That is simply a matter of history, and some of us said so and opposed that at the time.
Perhaps I might put it to the House: would it not be more sensible to recognise that over the past 30 years all Governments have made mistakes and all Governments have got too close to media organisations such as News International—and not just News International? Would it not now be sensible to take the opportunity to step back and put the relationship between political parties and the media on a proper, more independent and less demeaning basis? If we did that, the public would be very pleased with our action.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Fowler for his intervention, and I agree totally with him that this should not be a party-political matter. This has been ongoing for several years, as he has clearly pointed out. We should take a step back, which is exactly what the Secretary of State is doing. The Government are determined to find out all that the journalists and their agents were up to in hacking into phone messages, and what the police knew, when they knew, and what they did about it—and how we might learn the lessons for the future. That is why the Prime Minister announced last Wednesday that there would be two inquiries, both of which will be fully independent. I note that my noble friend Lord Fowler has been asking for these inquires for a very long time now. The first will be an independent judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of the specific revelations and allegations. It will look at why the police investigation that started in 2006 failed, what was going on in the News of the World, and what was going on in other newspapers. The second inquiry will be a review, and will look at the wider lessons for the future of the press. We intend that work can start at the earliest opportunity—ideally, this summer.
News Corporation/BSkyB Merger
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
My Lords, this was intended as a Written Statement. It was only when two PNQs—one in this House and one in the Commons—were tabled that we had the Statement that we have just heard. Will my noble friend tell the Secretary of State that it would have been much better to have freely volunteered an Oral Statement in both Houses? That would have been much more convenient for Parliament. This is an important decision but, frankly, we are now being presented with a done deal. Therefore, I have two questions. First, would a British company be allowed to take full control of an American media company, or is it not the case that we are limited to a maximum stake of 20 or 25 per cent? What are the Government doing to break down that barrier? Secondly, is it not clear that we have a position today in which too much market power over the British media is being exercised by one company? I hope that the Government recognise that very many people in this country regard this concentration of power as unacceptable. I urge the Government, even at this very late stage, to review and strengthen the rules on media plurality.
Baroness Rawlings
I thank my noble friend Lord Fowler for his questions, and I will of course relay his concerns to the Secretary of State. As I said in reading out the Statement, this is still an ongoing situation. We have until midday on 8 July before any final decision is taken. This has been going on since last summer and there have rightly been many consultations. The Secretary of State has published all papers relating to every meeting on the subject. With regard to a British company taking control of a United States company, I will have to write to my noble friend on those details.
Telephone Hacking
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further action they intend to take to prevent telephone hacking by newspapers.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, phone hacking is unacceptable and against the law. The police must be allowed to probe into all the evidence. The CPS will then assess whether any prosecutions should be brought in accordance with the tests laid down by the Code for Crown Prosecutors. Should Her Majesty’s Government launch another phone-hacking inquiry now, it would risk obstructing these investigations. We shall, in the circumstances, monitor closely all the results and consider whether any further action will be necessary.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. There was a time when there was an attempt to write off phone hacking as the work of one rogue reporter. Does my noble friend recognise that in the last two weeks alone, News Corporation has paid out damages of £100,000 to the actress Sienna Miller and admitted misuse of private information, breach of confidence and harassment? News International has now set up what it calls a £15 million compensation fund for the victims of phone hacking, and evidence has emerged that the News of the World is not the only newspaper involved. Does she agree that all this represents a massive conspiracy against the public which the police and the Press Complaints Commission have been powerless to prevent, and will she give an assurance that once the criminal proceedings are complete—I emphasise, once they are complete—the Government will set up an independent inquiry to find out where the responsibility lies?
Baroness Rawlings
My noble friend Lord Fowler is extremely knowledgeable and experienced on this subject. I have read the details that he mentioned, but I need to make it clear from the start that my answers will cover only press regulations and not the criminal aspects. I know that your Lordships are well aware that the criminal aspects of hacking are covered by the Home Office. We do, however, fully understand my noble friend’s request for a further inquiry to be set up after the present cases are resolved. We are witnessing a revolution in the information and communications world, as in technology in general, of such galloping speed that I can only agree with my noble friend that constant monitoring is essential in case further action is needed.
News Corporation/BSkyB Merger
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
My Lords, is not the trouble with Mr Murdoch’s assurances that, frankly, we have been down that road before, and not very happily in the case of the Times newspapers, so will need to study those assurances with very great care?
As I understand it, the new company will be loss-making, will have a 40 per cent News Corporation shareholding, and will rely for two-thirds of its income upon News Corporation.
Who from outside does the Minister believe will be investing in this new company, and will she confirm that the undertakings that Mr Murdoch has given do not prevent him eventually taking back control of Sky News? Lastly, does she agree that this further concentration of powers—as the noble Baroness from the opposition Front Bench was saying—on advertising and cross-subsidy will pose a danger to many other media companies in this country? Is that really in the public interest?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I am very pleased that my noble friend, Lord Fowler, asks these questions. It gives me an opportunity to inform your Lordships’ House further, following the Statement.
I clarify yet again that this is not a final decision. The Secretary of State has announced that he is proposing to accept the undertakings offered by News Corporation. There will now be a consultation period, which will close on 21 March, after which the Secretary of State will decide whether to approve the merger. Ofcom’s report on the proposed merger stated, and the Secretary of State agreed, that:
“We consider that the revised proposed undertakings would address the plurality concerns identified in our report of 31 December 2010”.
On the question of who outside might bid for the shares, I am afraid I have absolutely no idea. No one has told me anything about who might buy. The figure quoted by the Secretary of State was that 65 per cent of Sky News’ income will come from Sky. We have no idea about the rest. The concentration of power will be less because the new Sky News will not have a Murdoch as chairman or on the board. The chairman and the board will be independently chosen.
Media: Ownership
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what safeguards exist to prevent too great a concentration of media power in the United Kingdom.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, the Government believe that it is important for the media to reflect different viewpoints so as to safeguard democratic debate. In order to have a level playing field, undue concentration of media power is prevented in three main ways: first, there are statutory media ownership rules, which are enforced by Ofcom and provide absolute restrictions of ownership; secondly, mergers involving newspapers and media enterprises, like all other mergers, are subject to competition-based regulation by independent competition authorities; and, thirdly, the Secretary of State has an exceptional power to intervene in media mergers if necessary.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. In last week’s debate on media power, all 20 speakers on the list supported the decision to refer the News Corp attempt to take full control of BSkyB to Ofcom. Does the Minister agree that this shows the great concern that there is on this issue? Does she also agree that, in safeguarding the media in this country, it is absolutely essential to retain a strong and independent BBC?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Fowler, who is always ahead of the game, had already tabled his Question before the debate last week in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. During the debate, I set out the process for public interest investigation in respect of News Corporation’s proposed purchase of BSkyB. Clearly, there are merits in doing so again. The Secretary of State intervened in this merger last week and asked Ofcom to provide him with an initial report considering its potential impact on the public interest concern with media plurality. This came at the time of the debate. On receipt of Ofcom’s report—I wish to spell this out clearly, because it was a theme that went through the debate—the Secretary of State might need to decide whether to refer the merger to the Competition Commission for a more detailed investigation. If such a reference was made, the Competition Commission would report within 24 weeks and the Secretary of State would need to make a final decision on what action to take within 30 days.
BBC: Licence Fee
Debate between Lord Fowler and Baroness Rawlings
Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their plans for the future of the BBC licence fee.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, the Government announced in a Written Ministerial Statement on 16 September that there would be no increase in the licence fee on 1 April 2011. A decision about 2012-13 will be taken as part of the next funding settlement. Discussions on the next funding settlement will begin next year. The Government will take all relevant factors into account, such as the economic climate in the country, the views of the BBC and its competitors and, of course, public opinion. We remain committed to a strong and independent BBC that forms the cornerstone of public service broadcasting. The fundamental question of what the BBC should look like and the role that it will play in the longer term will be carefully addressed at the time of the next charter review.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply and very much welcome the last part of what she had to say. In view of her Answer, do the Government believe that the licence fee is the best way of financing the BBC and of securing its independence, and are they entirely and absolutely committed to its continuance?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I am so pleased that my noble friend Lord Fowler has asked me this supplementary as the House knows that he is probably the most knowledgeable and experienced Peer on this subject. It is important to me and it gives me the chance to stress that the Government are fully committed to the principle of the licence fee as the primary method of funding the BBC. As the noble Lord will know more than most, with the development of technology and viewing habits we will need to keep this under review to make certain that current arrangements do not become outdated. The BBC continues to be the jewel in the crown in the UK’s media landscape and the licence fee is fundamental to supporting it.