Military National Service

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes some very good points but, as I have said before, increasingly it is about capability rather than pure numbers. We are facing some widely known recruitment issues that are not peculiar to the forces or to the country and that are giving us a bit of a challenge, but while we have smaller forces than previously we are applying all sorts of issues to attract and retain forces across all three services.

[Lord Fowler (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord asks for consideration of

“a form of military national service”.

As one of the last national servicemen in the 1950s, I think he is wise to put it that way. I have no personal complaints, but I observe that not everyone had happy memories of this period. Otherwise, you would not have had conscripts keeping lists of days and hours left to do, and the most popular recording on British forces radio in Germany for those nearing discharge would not have been “Happy Days Are Here Again”. I agree with the noble Lord that there is a strong case for looking at this again, but if we do I hope we will find something better than the 1950s model.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I cannot disagree with the noble Lord, but we have to rely on the fact that all three forces have a global reputation and are professional, highly trained and the envy of many. To dilute them with unwilling recruits, to a certain degree, can lead only to a slight dilution of that reputation.

Cadet Forces

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Monday 1st March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

The noble Baroness makes a very interesting suggestion, which I will certainly reflect on. Given that the age range for cadets goes up to 18, our principal engagement is with schools, but I will look into this further.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Nuclear Weapons

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Responding from the perspective of defence, I do not accept the premise of the noble Viscount’s question. When we are dealing with threats to security and the safety of our country and our citizens, we go down all routes—security routes, MoD roots and diplomatic routes—and they are all vital. The recent settlement offered by the Government to the MoD reflects the importance that we attach to that.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

HMS “Queen Elizabeth”

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord will be aware that, in contemplating any deployment, we make an extensive and robust assessment of risk in all respects. That is what we do at the moment and what we shall continue to do.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. It was a rather leisurely session, which means that three Members were unable to be brought in. We now come to the second Oral Question.

Armed Forces Personnel from Commonwealth Countries

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I do not for one moment doubt the noble Lord’s sincerity, although he will be aware that the policy obtained during the time of the coalition Government, of which his party was part. It is complex, and I am not diminishing that. We are talking not just of Commonwealth citizens, which I think is the focus of the Royal British Legion campaign; we are also talking about the Gurkhas. We are very conscious of the immense contribution that they all make, and we are actively investigating whether there is anything that we can do to support them better.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the second Oral Question.

Fleet Solid Support Ships

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Wednesday 7th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

We are aware of the scheduled end of service for “Fort Victoria”, which is in 2028. We are satisfied that we can make the necessary arrangements to continue the support which will be required. On delay, as my noble friend will be aware, the National Audit Office has made it clear that it is too early to say what impact stopping the original competition process might have on the entry into service of the fleet solid support ships. We will seek to mitigate any delay, and we shall certainly assess—as we are currently doing—the interest of those parties which have responded to the prior information notice process. We hope to proceed to make further information available to Parliament on the procurement strategy.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has sadly elapsed.

Covid-19: Military Operations and Support

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Thursday 10th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite correct that decisions were taken to pause certain exercises, and that was the correct decision with regard to the safety and well-being of those who otherwise would have participated. NATO and all member states are anxious to resume activity when circumstances permit that to happen. We must take account of situations in host countries, not just their health situation but what their particular requirements and restrictions may be. I am confident there is a resolve on the part of NATO and the member states to do whatever we can to continue activity, but we must always have at the forefront of that the health, well-being and safety of the personnel of all member states.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. We now move to the second Oral Question.

Covid-19: Security Risks

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Lord will be aware of this Government’s very creditable record in relation to defence expenditure. We saw an upping of £2.2 billion for 2019-20. We have committed to a 0.5% increase above inflation for the lifetime of the Parliament. The Government’s commitment to and resolute support for defence are self-evident.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

The time allotted for this Question has now elapsed. My apologies to the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead.

His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Wednesday 14th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, in briefly closing these contributions, I will say that what is clear from everything said today is the great affection with which His Royal Highness is viewed in this House. We send him our sincere congratulations and, at the same time, our best wishes to Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Cornwall. I would add only this directly to His Royal Highness: if you have reservations about turning 70, just you wait until you get to 80. Happy Birthday.

Motion agreed nemine dissentiente.

Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill

Lord Fowler Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 31st October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 31 is grouped with Amendment 33. Both are amendments to Clause 6, which extends the circumstances in which a terrorist offending abroad may be prosecuted in the UK, whether or not the offender is a UK citizen and whether or not the conduct is also an offence in the jurisdiction in which it took place. The overall effect of the amended provisions of the Terrorism Act is that an individual committing one of the offences within the relevant section would be liable under UK law in the same way as if he or she committed the offence in the UK. In practical terms, that person would be prosecuted only if he or she was present in the UK, though that presence could, of course, be achieved through extradition.

The offences which this Bill adds are: the dissemination of terrorist material; the wearing of clothing or displaying an item in public so as to arouse reasonable suspicion the person is a member or supporter of—in view of our debate on Monday, I have written down a query about whether that should be “supportive of”—a proscribed organisation; and making or possessing explosives under suspicious circumstances. Under these provisions, it would also no longer be a requirement that the offence be listed in the Council of Europe Convention on the Prevention of Terrorism.

I very much enjoyed the tutorials, from which we all benefited, from the very senior lawyers who took part on the debate in Monday. I am tempted to let them go first but the amendment is in my name, so that would not be entirely the thing to do. I move these amendments, as I did on Monday, on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Our report of 4 July commented on some of the evidence we had received, including that from the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation Max Hill QC. He said:

“placing an individual … on trial in this jurisdiction in front of judge and jury means that you need to prove a level of awareness as to the offence at the time the person committed it. If there is no equivalent offence abroad it is difficult, at the point of proof, to demonstrate that the offence has been committed”.

We also reported on the evidence of Professor Clive Walker, who talked about creating,

“a potential clash between UK law and the law of the country where the activity occurred”.

He went on to say that,

“foreign law which has chosen not to incriminate or prosecute the display of support suggests that UK law should not intervene”.

Similar points were made about the removal of the requirement for equivalence with the convention.

The committee’s report expressed our concern:

“The extension of extraterritorial jurisdiction to certain offences such as support for a proscribed organisation may be problematic in situations where there is not an equivalent offence in the country concerned”.


We took the view that this would,

“offend the principles of natural justice and sufficient foreseeability of the effect of one’s actions. It would mean a foreign national, with few links to the UK, could be prosecuted in the UK if he/she attended a protest or waved a flag overseas, in support of an organisation that is lawful within that overseas jurisdiction … We recommend that further consideration is given as to whether it is justified to bring domestic prosecutions against those who have no (or very few) links to the UK at the relevant time for conduct overseas that was perfectly lawful in the jurisdiction where it occurred”.

The Government have argued that the oversight of the Director of Public Prosecutions or, in certain cases, the Attorney-General, is a safeguard and that prosecutions would have to be proportionate. We did not regard this as a sufficient answer, nor did we regard as sufficient the Government’s comment that we need to deal with conduct in failed states which do not have the rule of law. All this raises, among other things, the issue of how evidence is found in such a place for use in a prosecution here.

Amendment 31 would delete the extension to the Section 13 offence in respect of uniforms and flags. Amendment 33 would limit the extension to where the relevant conduct is criminal in the country concerned, or where the individual is a British national or has been present in the UK for six months or more over a period of 10 years. That was a way of expressing that the individual has significant links with the UK. I beg to move.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

I should notify the Committee that, if Amendment 31 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 32 by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, Amendment 33, to which both my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark and I have added our names, reflects a recommendation of the Joint Committee on Human Rights—a committee whose recommendations are not always music to the ears of this Government, and indeed have not been to previous Governments. I imagine that the committee would take the view that that is just about the highest compliment any Government could pay it.

The Government have also expressed a fairly trenchant view on the extent to which the JCHR, in connection with the Bill, should have taken evidence from the police, intelligence agencies and victims. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has previously responded to the Government’s comments, but, whatever the Government’s view on that specific point, the committee’s recommendations should be considered and responded to purely on their merits, rather than on the basis of whose evidence has or has not been given.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the JCHR have said, Clause 6 extends extraterritorial jurisdiction to Section 13 of the Terrorism Act 2000. Section 13 criminalises wearing an item of clothing or wearing, carrying or displaying an article in a public place so as to arouse reasonable suspicion that the person is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation. The JCHR has expressed concerns over the extension of extraterritorial jurisdiction to certain offences where there is no equivalent offence in the country concerned, which could certainly apply in respect of the offences covered by Section 13 of the Terrorism Act. In such a situation, we could end up in a position under the Bill as it stands where a foreign national with no or very limited links to the UK is prosecuted for conduct that, both in fact and as far as they were concerned, was lawful at the time and in the place it occurred. That surely would not be British justice in action.

The views of the Joint Committee on Human Rights on this issue are shared by the Constitution Committee—whether, in the latter case, that was with or without having heard evidence from the police and intelligence agencies I do not know. The Constitution Committee states that the extraterritorial extension of the offences concerned,

“breaches the requirement, deriving from the principle of legal certainty, that people should have a fair opportunity to know the laws (particularly criminal laws which on conviction carry criminal penalties) which apply to them. We agree with the JCHR’s proposed amendment that extra-territorial jurisdiction should apply only where the relevant conduct is criminal in the country concerned or where the individual has sufficient links to the UK”.

Amendment 33 is designed to address the issue to which both the JCHR and the Constitution Committee have drawn attention by providing that an offence is committed under Section 13 only if the relevant acts were an offence in the country where the acts took place, or the individual was a British national or had been present in the United Kingdom for a continuous period of at least six months in the last 10 years.