Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, what a very helpful suggestion indeed. I will immediately investigate it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, absolutely: when I was a Minister in both DfID and the Scotland Office, he will not be surprised that from time to time my civil servants came to me and said, “Minister, I think you are being a little political in what you are suggesting here. I cannot put out a statement on your behalf saying this. You will have to get your party to put it out”. They are absolutely right to do that and we all respected it. That is why it is deeply disappointing that that is not what seems to be happening in the Scottish Government.

I say to my noble friend Lord O’Neill that I did not want to hang civil servants out to dry. In fact, both of the civil servants who I mentioned had really hung themselves out to dry in what they said and put on record. Although I do not normally quote the Daily Mail, the Telegraph and the Daily Express—I take everything I read in those newspapers with a pinch of salt—they were quoting directly from some of the things that Sir Peter Housden had said and put into his blog, so it was something that you could believe.

I take again the advice of my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton in relation to this, as I did with my noble and learned friend Lord Boyd on a previous amendment. The wording of the amendment is defective, as the Minister pointed out.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

It is an order.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It is an order, and I accept the fact that it should be looked at again. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, suggested that we might take another look at it, and it might be that we could think about what the noble Lord Maclennan said. If some kind of objective look at serious complaints about the Civil Service’s lack of impartiality could be undertaken, Scotland might be a good place to start. That was a very good suggestion.

The only thing in the Minister’s reply that I was a little worried about—most of what he said was very good—was when he said, referring to the head of the Civil Service in Scotland, that it was okay for civil servants in Scotland to advise the devolved Government on different policy areas where the two Governments have different objectives. That needs to be looked at more carefully. In a reserved area such as the constitution, it raises some very serious issues if there are policy objectives that are not just different but totally contradictory and conflicting.

Before I withdraw the amendment, which I will, I just ask the Minister to consider taking the initiative to draw this debate directly to the attention of Sir Jeremy Heywood, who is now the Cabinet Secretary. I have the highest regard for him and think he might carefully consider some of the points that have been made and what action might be appropriate. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan

Thursday 20th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

Before my noble friend leaves this point, is it not the case that it would not be impossible—unless this amendment was passed—for Argyll and Bute to be linked to a constituency in Northern Ireland? After all, until fairly recently there was a short ferry service between Argyll and the Mull of Kintyre and the north of Ireland. Therefore, this is not beyond the bounds of possibility. The draconian powers with which the Boundary Commission will be endowed would enable it to play ducks and drakes with all parts of these islands. While it might be mutually beneficial for Scotland and Northern Ireland and a number of areas to get closer, it is not necessary for them to enjoy the same parliamentary constituencies. Without this amendment, we might well have that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I know a lot about the Ballycastle to Campbeltown ferry, which my former honourable friend Brian Wilson tried to reinstate. When the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, was Secretary of State and I was Minister of State at the Scotland Office, we also tried to reinstate it, with some difficulty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Anything else you would like to say while you are at it?

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

That is why she is so bad tempered.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

There is a very simple way that the noble Baroness could have stopped me telling these anecdotes. She could have a word with the noble Lord, Lord Shutt of Greetland. I think I have finished.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

With distinction, then. There are 75,787 constituents there. In Edinburgh West, which is represented currently by a Liberal Democrat—equally brilliantly, I had better say, since the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, is replying to this debate and I seek his support on this—there are 70,603 constituents represented by Mike Crockart.

If the quota is 76,000 and the plus or minus allowance in relation to it is 5 per cent, all those constituencies will have to be looked at. If it is plus or minus 10 per cent then, if my arithmetic is right, at least three or probably four of the constituencies would be not immutable but able to continue at their present size and with their present boundary, without violating that variation. That would be a sensible thing to do, but in Edinburgh—we were talking earlier on in a debate about taking account of projected increases in population—there are substantial projected population increases. As my noble friend Lord O’Neill will know, because he lives in the area, in Edinburgh North and Leith there is expected to be extensive population growth.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I am grateful to my noble friend for allowing me to intervene but he very quickly passed over this fact: I do not live in Edinburgh, but live in Leith. I am not a Leith nationalist. Indeed, it could be argued that I live in the village of Newhaven, which was never the subject of a plebiscite, as Leith was in the 1920s—a very controversial plebiscite that the people of Leith have always disputed.

I draw it to my noble friend’s attention, and I do not wish in any way to diminish the strength of his case, that it is fair to say that adjacent to Edinburgh and slightly to the east is the town of Musselburgh. As I am sure he is aware, although it has enjoyed a presence in both the Edinburgh East and East Lothian constituencies, the proud boast—in fact, the chant—of the Musselburghers was that Musselburgh was a borough when Edinburgh was only a town. Therefore, we have to be a wee bit careful here when we start claiming historical precedents, first, in respect of Edinburgh and Leith, where you have to take account of the fact that the Leithers are a significant group within the city; and secondly, if we are to extend the primacy of representation and the boundaries of constituencies, and ignore the claims of the good burghers of Musselburgh, we are getting into rather dangerous waters.

I know that my noble friend spends a lot of time swimming in those waters and that it has always been the hallmark of his political contributions. However, at this stage of the day—or, perhaps, the night—we have to be a wee bit sensitive to some of those feelings, particularly at this time given the fortunes of the football club which resides in Leith. At the moment, we are suffering. We do not need more pain because of his reluctance to give us our proper place in the panoply of Edinburgh constituencies.