King’s Speech

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Offord of Garvel

Tuesday 23rd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of His Majesty’s Opposition let me first put on record my congratulations to Labour on its comprehensive victory in the general election, and my special congratulations to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hermer, and the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley, on their places on the Front Bench. I wish them all success.

For those of us who previously sat on the Front Bench, it is rather disorientating to come into the other side of the House. But in scanning the Opposition Benches calibration came to my aid when I saw my main protagonist in constitutional matters, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, in exactly the same place on the Government Benches as he sat when on the Opposition Benches. Perhaps it is business as usual—or perhaps not.

Being relatively new to this House, with a tenure of three years and not yet aged 60, I will not divert into the matters of hereditary Peers or age but will focus on devolution. Given that I previously served as Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, noble Lords will forgive me if I focus on Scottish matters, but for Welsh and Northern Irish Peers there will be many similarities in the remarks I wish to make about devolution. This year, 2024, is the 25th anniversary of devolution in the UK. Surely, therefore, it would not be unreasonable to ask the Labour Party, which invented devolution, to undertake a 25-year review to see where it has worked well and where it has not worked so well.

In the numerous exchanges I had with the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, when I was sitting on the Front Bench, he expressed frustration that His Majesty’s Government in Westminster were not doing more to police the activities of the Scottish Government when they continually diverged outside the jurisdiction of devolved matters into reserved matters. The noble Lord was particularly exercised, as he mentioned this evening, about the establishment of foreign Scottish embassies in eight overseas cities where the UK already has embassies, at a cost of £1 million each, and about the use of civil servant time in publishing a series of independence papers, as well as the indulging of new state planning at a cost of £20 million. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would berate me, the Scottish Under-Secretary of State, that I was not doing more to bring the Scottish Government into line.

My reply to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was consistent: His Majesty’s Government have to work within the architecture of the Scotland Act 1998, which was designed and implemented by the Labour Party. The reality is that the Labour Party, as referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, did not envisage that the Scottish Government would, to use the noble Lord’s language, be weaponised against the United Kingdom Government, as the SNP has done these last 17 years. The result is that necessary checks and balances were not put in place to ensure good law-making, nor indeed were sanctions designed to discourage ultra vires behaviour. Surely now is the time for the new Labour Government to tidy up their previous work and review and improve the Scotland Act, as well as look at devolution across Wales and Northern Ireland to ensure greater co-operation between Westminster and the devolved Administrations.

The Scotland Act is basically very simple—you can put it on one piece of A4 paper. On the left-hand side of the paper you have reserved matters and on the right-hand side you have devolved matters. Harmony is ensured when His Majesty’s Government—the UK Government—focus on reserved matters and the Scottish Government focus on devolved matters. The sad reality is that, in the 17 years under an SNP Government, every single KPI in devolved matters in Scotland has gone backwards. Our education system, once the gold-plated education system in the United Kingdom—which allowed me to go from a tenement to this place—has been reduced from outstanding to average. Police numbers are now at a record 15-year low, and let us not talk about the A9, the single-track railways or the ferries. On health, one in seven Scots is currently on a waiting list, and local authorities are being denuded.

Interestingly, with local authorities there is a glimmer of hope in our 25-year review. One of the great privileges of my job in the Scotland Office was to work with DLUHC on the levelling-up agenda, where £3 billion of UK money went direct to Scotland—and direct to the 32 local authorities, much to the cries of foul play by the Scottish Government, who wanted it to come direct to them. In my role as Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, I had interactions with the 32 local authorities and had very meaningful conversations with them. Whichever colour of party ran the council, they said to us that this was the best level of engagement they had had with the UK in the 25 years since devolution began. They said that it came to them with enthusiasm and empowerment. It was their idea as to how to spend the money—there were city deals, freeports, a levelling-up fund and a community ownership fund. London was not telling them how to spend their money; they were telling us where they wanted to spend it. The one thing they said was that they wanted more of it, because they do not get any of that interaction, nor indeed money, from the Scottish Government.

On this idea of devolution being called for from London to Edinburgh, it does not seem to go from Edinburgh to Greenock, Falkirk or Bathgate. But I am very proud that, in my time in the Scotland Office over the last five years, we have made great strides on that. I will give your Lordships one little anecdote. Many noble Lords will know the Corran ferry, a small but very important link from Lochaber to Ardnamurchan. When it went down, the Scottish Government denied funding for it. The UK Government came to the rescue through the levelling-up fund. The leader of the Highland Council, being an SNP councillor, was so desperate for the money that he even agreed with me to put a union jack on the ferry. The message that came back was, “We don’t care where the money comes from; what we in local authorities want is to be listened to and funded adequately”.

So, when we look at the dismal Administration that we have had in Scotland—we can talk also about Wales and Northern Ireland another time—it is interesting that that is despite record funding that has come from His Majesty’s Treasury. How dishonest of the current First Minister, John Swinney, to claim in the recent general election that Scotland’s problems were all down to Westminster austerity when between 2018 and 2023, the five principal years of Nicola Sturgeon’s premiership, Scottish government spending went up from £40 billion to £55 billion. That is 6% per annum.

I do not know how many of my fellow noble Lords run businesses, but how many who do have organic revenue growth of 6% per annum? That does not look to me to be austerity at all. That money is sent north with no strings attached. London does not prescribe to Edinburgh how to spend the money. The reality is that the Scottish Government make their spending choices. They have prioritised in their period of power giving record welfare payments and record increases in public sector pay. They are entitled to do that. The three lowest-spending departments have been education, the police and local authorities. This should serve as a warning to any new Government and the new Labour Government. The SNP boasts that it has created a welfare economy. The harsh reality is that, without wealth creation, there will be no welfare.

I take this opportunity to urge the new Government to take a fresh look at and review the 25 years of devolution. There have been many good things achieved, but we must take the opportunity now to ensure that the Scottish Government get focused on doing the day job of running the police, the schools and the roads, which has been expressed in this Chamber this evening. On devolution, we all agree a consensus that it is about bringing power closer to the people in matters that matter in their local areas. We need to focus on this, rather than Parliament having fancy nation-building and looking at a land of milk and honey.

I leave noble Lords with this thought. Given that—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am flattered that the noble Lord is spending so much time dealing with one of the points that I raised. There were dozens of others, brilliant points raised by other noble Lords. Surely the Opposition spokesperson ought to be replying to those as well?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for continuing to joust with me. I did say that I would focus on Scottish issues, because I know Wales and Northern Ireland less, and that I would focus on devolution. My major point is that a 25-year review of devolution is required. Therefore, I suggest that we accept that all parts of the United Kingdom send their MPs to Westminster. The constitution is devolved to Westminster and that is where the debates should happen. If we want to debate further independence, perhaps we can invite “Lord Salmond” or “Lord Blackford” to join this Chamber. Then it would not just be “The Lord Offord versus Lord Foulkes Show”.

Anyway, in conclusion, I will finish by reprising the wisdom of my noble friend Lord Caine, who said earlier that the primary responsibility of the UK Government was first and foremost to preserve this most successful and lasting union for the benefit of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I would welcome that assurance today from the Government Front Bench.