Scottish Government: Welfare

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord McAvoy

Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they are making in the transfer of full welfare responsibilities to the Scottish Government as provided for by the Scotland Act 2016.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord McAvoy, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord McAvoy

Monday 8th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, we have heard four powerful and eloquent pleas from Wales. I hope it is now possible just to say a few words on behalf of the quiet, unassuming people of Scotland. To be serious, this is a matter that people in Scotland, and particularly the Parliament and Government of Scotland, feel equally as strongly about—if not more strongly—as the Parliament and Government of Wales. I am therefore concerned that the House of Lords—and I say this knowing that the Government Chief Whip is here—is dealing with this at 10.45 pm. This is a matter of great importance. It is a very serious matter. It is a matter which more Members of the House should be participating in. It is a pity that it was not dealt with at a more suitable time.

The Minister said early on—I have sat through an awful lot of her speeches—that she was in listening mode. I have yet to see evidence of that, but let us give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is. There could not be an issue on which it is more important for her to be in listening mode than this one. The fact that neither she nor her colleagues have had discussions with the Governments and Parliaments of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland on these issues is lamentable. It does not indicate that the Government are willing to listen.

As far back as November 2015 in Holyrood, they voted by 104 votes to 14 to oppose this Bill. All the parties except the Conservative Party—every one of them, and the independents too—opposed it. They discussed it again in Holyrood on 26 January, the same day that the Welsh Assembly discussed it. Again, the opinion was overwhelming: only one spokesperson, the Conservative spokesperson, defended the Bill—rather inadequately, but we are used to that. Powerful arguments were made against it.

I do not often do this, but I shall now quote Roseanna Cunningham, the Cabinet Secretary for Fair Work, Skills and Training—a member of the SNP. On this occasion she made an excellent, powerful speech against the Bill, and in favour of the Holyrood motion. Unusually, she also paid tribute to the House of Lords—we do not often hear that from the SNP—because we had been able to ask the Government to think again. Other tributes to the House of Lords were also made in that debate. That is something that we should acknowledge.

Roseanna Cunningham is not a Labour person; she is an SNP member, but she said that she had explained,

“the Scottish Government’s view that trade unions are a force for good in modern society; that unionised workplaces have more engaged staff, a higher level of staff training and a progressive approach to staff wellbeing; that unions help employers to create the safe, humane and productive working conditions that head off industrial disputes and build better businesses; that any legislation that undermines the value and contribution that trade unions can make is a ‘thoroughly bad idea’; and that the bill is nothing more than an ideological attack on unions, with no evidence to underpin it”.

That is a powerful argument, which we on the Labour, Liberal Democrat and Plaid Cymru Benches here have been putting here, and our arguments are echoed by the SNP in Scotland.

The Devolution (Further Powers) Committee took evidence on the Bill from STUC, from employers and from a whole range of local government people. It said that there was no support for ballot thresholds, or for a cap on facility time or check-off provisions—there was no evidence to support the Bill. The committee went through the kind of exercise that we have not gone through here: it looked at the Bill in detail, and expressed concern at the lack of consultation with public sector employees in Scotland. It also pointed out that—as was also mentioned in the Holyrood debate—the Scottish Government as an employer has had check-off for years, and the costs are so minimal that the unions have not needed to be charged. Yet the Scottish Government are now being forced to act against their own will and experience. It is outrageous that this Government are forcing the Scottish Government to act in that way.

Roseanna Cunningham and the Scottish Parliament went on to say that they wanted Scotland removed from the Bill. That is their main aim, and that is what the Welsh Assembly said as well. But at the very minimum—I put this forward as a hint or suggestion for the Minister—they wanted regulation-making powers relating to facility time and check-off to be conferred on Scottish Ministers. That, at least, would be a compromise. It would not be the ideal situation, but if such regulation-making powers were conferred on Scottish and Welsh Ministers, that would be a move in the right direction.

Incidentally, during the debate, Bruce Crawford, who chaired the committee that looked at this issue, pointed out that even Tories in local government—the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, is here to show this—do not like aspects of the Bill. He pointed out that a Tory councillor in East Dumbartonshire, Billy Hendry, was concerned about the provisions of the Bill, saying that there was no evidence to support it and that it was an “unnecessary and unjustified imposition”.

Bruce Crawford went on to say that the Bill should be amended in the House of Lords—again an acknowledgement of the role of the House of Lords from an SNP member which I was encouraged to hear. We are making progress on this. It is wonderful. We will have them in here soon, so that Dafydd will have friends—he has friends now but he will also have associates. Bruce Crawford said that,

“the bill should be amended in … the House of Lords so that it does not apply to Scotland”;

and that such amendments should be,

“by any means available to it”,

encouraging us to press and push as hard as possible.

In one of the most powerful speeches in the debate in Holyrood on 26 January, Patricia Ferguson—a good friend of mine, a Labour Member of the Scottish Parliament and a former Minister in the Scottish Government—referred to the amendments to which I and my noble friends Lady Morgan and Lord Hain and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis—who is not in his place—have put our names. She asked for the support of the House of Lords. She said—this is good—that if we do not see any movement from the Government then the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Irish Assembly should get together on an all-party basis and come down in a protest to No. 10 Downing Street and put strong, powerful pressure on this Conservative Government. If we do not get some movement then the constitutional firestorm to which my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely predicted will come about.

I hope the Minister will pass these message back to her colleagues, to Mr Boles, to the Secretary of State and to the Prime Minister that this provision must be amended, otherwise there will be an outrage the like of which she has never seen before.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I have some class acts to follow from this side of the Committee on the case that has been put for the amendments, which I support, but I want to touch on the fact that we are debating the future of Scotland and Wales at eight minutes to 11 at night. We agreed extra time for this debate because we are responsible and co-operative—I am one of the most co-operative Front Benchers here—but half of the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord King and Lord Balfe, out of the time that we were good enough to give the Government, were spent attacking the Labour Party, the trade unions and our role and place in society. Again, that is testament to the vindictive nature of the Government’s legislation. I think it was Winston Churchill who said that no temporary political alliance in government should disadvantage its political opponents. That is what is happening in this Government, both in the Short money and through other legislation against the trade unions. We are here discussing the future of Scotland and Wales at seven minutes to 11. That message will not be lost in Scotland and Wales. It is further evidence that this Government are badly damaging the unionist cause.

This legislation is politically pernicious: it flies in the face of what we know about effective industrial relations policies and undermines the devolution settlement. It is the latter that I want to focus on today. In my brief contribution, I want to concentrate my attention on the constitutional implications that this Bill will have in Scotland. The amendments would exclude the Scottish Government and, indeed, the other devolved Administrations across the UK from certain elements of the Bill, ensuring that the Government’s commitment to the devolved Administrations is kept and upholding the settlement which they claim to support.

We suggest that the devolved Administrations should not be subject to specific clauses in the Bill: Clause 3, which introduces the 40% support requirement for industrial action in certain public services; Clause 10, which provides requirements for opting-in to trade union political funds by public sector employees who work in sectors or provide services that are devolved; the requirements on publication and the provision for facility time in Clauses 12 and 13; and Clause 14, which introduces the ban on check-off arrangements.

Check-off arrangements have worked successfully throughout this country for many, many years. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, mentioned working in the Hoover factory in Merthyr Tydfil. I worked in the Hoover factory in Cambuslang. In both factories, there were quite satisfactory check-off arrangements, and they worked for years. The employer, for the most part, was an enlightened employer and co-operated fully.

Taken together, our proposals would have the effect of mitigating the elements of the Bill which placed obstructions on the Scottish Parliament’s ability to decide how best to engage with staff and trade unions when delivering devolved services. One of the most blatant ways the Government are doing this is by limiting the amount of facility time trade union workplace representatives can spend representing members of the public sector—the result being that trade unions would be prevented from representing their members’ interests by negotiating improvements on pay and conditions, raising safety standards, promoting access to skills and training and accompanying individuals to grievance and disciplinary hearings. All these and a good employer-employee relationship benefit everyone.

Moreover, in Scotland it will also impact health bodies, as union representatives sit on health boards. Not only would this cut across the face of the devolution settlement, it would also hinder constructive employment relations which contribute to the level of the delivery of quality public services.

Furthermore, as drafted, this legislation enables the Secretary of State to make regulations to redefine “important public services”. Leaving aside for a moment the fact that broadening the definition of essential services, recognised in international law, raises the serious prospect of legal challenge—as has been mentioned by many noble Lords—I point out that many public services are devolved issues. This is, therefore, a clear example of the UK Government overstepping the mark.

The amendments would also protect against the democratic deficit that would be created by the enactment of this Bill. At present, secondary legislation to restrict or repeal trade unionists’ rights could be used, thereby preventing an opportunity to amend or even debate the legislation. While this Government seem to hold the process of consultation and engagement in contempt, we have a firm belief that this is an essential way of getting not only the best legislation but also the highest standards in our public services.

These amendments are just one mechanism we are using to make our defence against this Bill. From the outset, we have been clear that we will leave no stone unturned, and that includes support for lodging a legislative consent Motion in the Scottish Parliament. Your Lordships will know that such a Motion was filed with the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament by James Kelly, a Member of the Scottish Parliament for my own constituency of Rutherglen. He tried tenaciously and courageously to get the legislation consent Motion. He is a doughty fighter for trade union rights and representing the people, and he was ejected from the Chamber. There is a lot of feeling over this.

Given the very clear and legitimate grounds for proceeding in this manner, we are bitterly disappointed that this application was denied. We believe that, due to the detriment that this Bill will have on the Scottish Government’s ability to carry out its devolved responsibilities, we are legally justified in pursuing this course of action. My colleagues in the Scottish Parliament have written to Stewart Stevenson, convener of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee, to urgently request a change in the standing orders. This would ensure that,

“If a Bill under consideration in the UK Parliament does not identify a requirement for a Legislative Consent Motion, a member (including a member of the Scottish Government) may lodge a motion seeking the Parliament’s consent to treat the Bill as a ‘relevant Bill’”,

in relation to an LCM. Last month, Labour tabled the necessary Motion, backed by Green and independent MSPs, and will continue to press for this change.

Let there be no doubt: we will fight this tooth and nail, not just in Westminster, Holyrood and Cardiff, but at grass-roots level. Labour-controlled Scottish local authorities have led the way by passing motions of non-compliance with restrictions to facilities time and abrogation of the check-off. Among those councils that declare an interest is the council area where I stay, where my brother, Edward McAvoy is council leader. I make that plain. He has done a brilliant job. He is my big brother by the way; I am scared of him.

Our commitment to standing up for the rights of workers and trade unions across the UK is unwavering. The Bill is nothing more than a Conservative Party political tool that will, in the same breath, undermine effective industrial relations and have a corrosive impact on the entire devolution settlement. Curtailing the powers of the devolved Administrations to act in the interest of the people who have elected them is utterly shameful. I call on the Minister to heed the many warnings and pieces of advice she has received today and take a moment to consider with her colleagues the scale of the constitutional precedent the Bill will set. We have made very clear our views on what we regard as the motivation for the Bill, but, as we have also attempted to set out, our frustration and concern also relate to the Government’s disregard for the very foundations of the devolution settlement of the United Kingdom. To rectify this, I beg and urge the Government to accept the amendments.

Queen’s Speech

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord McAvoy

Monday 1st June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

We have taken a defeat. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, indicated that we were defeated because of our economic policy. There were many reasons for our defeat, which we will deal with and hopefully fix in the future. The combination of the Barnett formula and the tax-raising powers of the Scottish Parliament will be entirely up to it. If it does not have the money to do these things, it will not do them. It is our policy to make sure that it has the choice to do so, and that is the difference.

Devolution is about all of the United Kingdom. The Labour Party and I endorse Ivan Lewis’s statement that there is a duty on all parties within the Stormont Parliament to come to a responsible arrangement. We urge them all to do so. We also urge the Government to play a part in bringing these folk together as well.

Labour supports measures to put Welsh devolution on a stronger statutory basis, as in Scotland. We agree with taking forward proposals from the Silk commission and extending the power the people of Wales have over their transport, elections and energy. Wales must not be unfairly disadvantaged by the Barnett formula. The previous Government cut the Welsh budget by £1.5 billion, so this Government must ensure a fair funding settlement for Wales by introducing a funding floor, and we are glad to hear that that is what they are proposing. The measures that are expected to be put into the Wales Bill transfer new powers to Wales by implementing the agreed settlement for Wales and handing over more responsibility to the Welsh Assembly.

I am trying to paint the picture that devolution is not just about Scotland. Scotland is naturally taking all the headlines at the moment, but for devolution to work it must work for the United Kingdom.

I shall deal with one or two things that cropped up in the debate. My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton cleared the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, of any guilt concerning the poll tax. My view is that if somebody is in the Scotland Office, I believe in collective guilt, so with one bound he is not free. I am still waiting to hear a complete denial of that.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, had a very lucid, shrewd perspective, urging the SNP to nominate. I thought it was a very useful contribution: a voice comes from the non-political world, urging the SNP to get involved. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, has made some credible criticisms of the Labour Party over the past few years. I am not saying that I accept them, but they are credible and must be answered. He has some questions to answer himself, for instance about the performance of his Prime Minister on the steps of Downing Street on the morning after the referendum, with his quite disgraceful party-political broadcast on English votes on English laws, thereby giving the Scottish National Party the justification for saying that all unionist parties lied to the people of Scotland to get their vote and then withdrew everything else for it. He altered at a stroke the outcome of that referendum. It was a defeat for the SNP, but Mr Cameron’s intervention helped to turn it into a victory for them. In addition, the Prime Minister compounded it by the scare tactics of using the SNP in England to get votes by frightening people in England about how Scotland was going to take over—Mr Miliband in Salmond’s pocket, and all the rest of it. Therefore if there is some reckoning to be had, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, should be knocking on the door of No. 10 and making his point of view heard. Knowing him as I do, he has probably been there already.

I also picked up on the issue of voting systems. I was quite surprised to hear my two noble friends Lady Adams of Craigielea and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock indicate, in all honesty, that perhaps a look should be taken at the voting systems. However, the votes study, which the noble Lord, Lord Flight, mentioned and my noble friend Lord Gordon of Strathblane analysed, does not give a clear picture that the problem would be solved by the introduction of the Liberals’ holy grail of proportional representation. My noble friend Lord Gordon destroyed that case—it is not a clear picture. We are all interested in tackling the problems; all the Liberals can talk about is proportional representation, which gets quite boring.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I do not purport to speak for my noble friend Lady Adams, who is more than able to do that. However, all we said was that that matter should be looked at, and I am sure that even my noble friend on the Front Bench would not object to that.

[Lord McAvoy]

That is absolutely right, and that is the point I made: that both my noble friends were genuinely and honestly considering whether this is a problem. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and I go along with that.

I must deal with my friend with a small “f”, the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson of Bowden. Again, he was one of the few people not to say something during his speech that was said previously, and he indicated that as well. He may not know it, but he is a local hero in Rutherglen, Cambuslang and Halfway—he does know it—for his services to those areas in local government reorganisation in the 1990s.

I will quickly mention something the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, said when he seemed to warn the Labour Party about the constitutional danger of voting against the Government. I remind him that between 1997 and 2010 this House defeated the Labour Government over 500 times, so the lecture, if it was meant to be that, was a bit misplaced.

Finally, before I get accused of provoking people, the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, made a point about the £1,600 per head that Scotland gets. That is part of the metropolitan attitude that annoys people not just in Scotland but in Wales, the north, the north-west of England and elsewhere. If you took away the hidden government subsidy to London and the south-east from government bodies, contracts, employment and all the rest of it provided by the United Kingdom Government, there might be a better case for complaining about Scotland and elsewhere. However, there is a case for the decentralisation of England. Before I upset anybody else, I will close with that.