Brexit: Protection for Workers

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Thursday 7th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, how we deal with the withdrawal agreement Bill is a matter beyond my pay grade. The department that I have the honour to represent in this House has published the clauses that we are talking about today. That gives time for some scrutiny of them in advance of the publication of the full Bill and I hope the noble Lord and others will make use of that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we do not need a crystal ball when we have the history books. I spent 26 years as a Member of Parliament in the other place. Every Bill or proposal to improve workers’ rights put forward by the Labour Government, and every argument we made to protect workers against employers, was opposed by the Tories, including the national minimum wage. When there was a Tory Government, the only improvements came because the European Union insisted on them. Why should we accept these warm words from the Government now, when we know the record of all these past years?

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[Lord Henley]

I have to say that that is complete and utter nonsense and I totally reject—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was there, but the Minister was not.

[Lord Henley]

I have been in this House long enough to see what goes on. I think I have been in this House slightly longer than the noble Lord was in another place. Conservative Governments have brought forward a great many improvements. My right honourable friend listed those in his Statement earlier, starting with the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, brought in under John Major’s Government by my noble friend Lord Hague. Look at the national living wage. Conservative Governments have done a great deal. My right honourable friend went back as far as the Shaftesbury Acts two centuries ago. We have made improvements and will continue to do so, but we will make sure we get the right balance.

Insolvency (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Tuesday 15th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

My Lords, while we believe that a deal with the EU is in our mutual interest, it would not be appropriate to assume the outcome. It is therefore important that we also plan and provide, as the instrument before us does, for a no-deal outcome.

It may be helpful if I speak briefly about the current EU framework for cross-border insolvencies. The existing EU insolvency regulation ensures that member states automatically recognise an insolvency order made in an EU country, assisting the insolvency practitioner in recovering assets and returning money to creditors, avoiding unnecessary court proceedings, time and costs, and helping return more money to creditors, or rescuing a business, or saving employees’ jobs. The EU legislation contains safeguards to ensure that individual member states’ own laws are respected, and cannot be overridden by an insolvency order made in another state. I give way to the noble Lord.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I want to ask about a point of procedure as I am surprised that the Minister is moving this, given that the 42nd report of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments says, at paragraph 1.12:

“The Committee accordingly reports regulation 5(1) for defective drafting”.


Further on, it says:

“The Committee accordingly reports regulation 5(2) on the grounds that it appears to make an unexpected use of the enabling power”.


Given that very strong criticism from the committee, is it really the Government’s intention to move ahead with this?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, it is my intention so to do, and I was coming to address the points made by the JCSI. This is a perfectly regular procedure. The noble Lord is very experienced in dealing with statutory instruments and with reports from the JCSI. It often happens that a report will come with criticism from the JCSI. The department then issues its response, and that should deal with the matter. I was going to come to this in my opening remarks and it is right that I should do so. The noble Lord will be able to listen to my explanation and, I hope, will accept that I, and the Government, have dealt satisfactorily with the concerns that the JCSI put to us. We greatly respect the JCSI. It does a very good job and we are very grateful for that. Back in the long-distant past, the noble Lord—like most of us—probably served on the JCSI and, if he had that honour, I am sure that he did a very good job in so doing.

This instrument recognises that, as we leave the EU, our European Union (Withdrawal) Act will automatically retain a version of EU regulation in UK law. However, the safeguards that the regulation provides can no longer be relied upon as the remaining member states will no longer be bound by them in respect of the UK. Many in the professional insolvency sector have argued that reciprocity is an essential part of continuing with this legislation. In the absence of a deal, it is vital that we do not indefinitely continue to apply EU rules that could override our own law and prevent us from dealing effectively with insolvencies in the UK.

The instrument therefore repeals the majority of the EU insolvency regulation, retaining only the small part necessary to keep the right to open proceedings in the UK. It provides for an orderly wind-down of the arrangements by continuing to apply the current EU rules to existing cases where main insolvency proceedings are already open on exit day. But, as a safeguard, the courts may disapply the EU rules where they will lead to a different outcome from that which would have been the case before we left.

I come now to the JCSI report, which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has kindly brought to the attention of the House. I assure the noble Lord that I had every intention of raising this subject. The report refers to a lack of clarity—the noble Lord no doubt has it before him—and an unexpected use of the withdrawal Act power. I am confident that the provisions are an appropriate use of the power in the withdrawal Act. The provisions will give the court the necessary discretion to respond to unexpected outcomes from the interaction between our law and that of EU member states. There are precedents in existing insolvency legislation providing the court with the broad discretion to make orders in insolvency proceedings.

If, following EU exit, UK creditors or others with an interest in the insolvency are being treated unfavourably, it is only right that the court is allowed to apply the powers in our own cross-border insolvency regulations—which are used for non-EU insolvency proceedings—or make some other appropriate order to resolve the situation. The detailed examples that we provided to the JCSI demonstrated just some of the situations in which this might arise, and these examples were included within the JCSI’s report.

The instrument also amends certain employment legislation which ensures that protection for employees is retained following the insolvency of their employer. This ensures that the current financial support given to UK-based employees when their employer in the EU becomes insolvent will continue after exit day. In the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, the instrument updates and makes similar changes to the law on insolvency and employment rights in Northern Ireland, on behalf of the Northern Ireland Government. I commend the regulations to the House.

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[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I indicated earlier that I was surprised that the Minister was pressing ahead with this, given the critical report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. I do not think that the Government have dealt with it fully—and we have just heard an explanation of the concerns. As I said yesterday and last week in Grand Committee, I am surprised that the Government are pressing ahead with these instruments in the event of no deal, with all the time and expense of the excellent civil servants—not to mention Ministers—involved. Given what has just happened down the Corridor, where the Government have been defeated by a majority of 230, the largest government defeat in history, I cannot believe the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has the enthusiasm, let alone the responsibility and legitimacy, to press ahead with this. I urge him to do himself and the House a favour and withdraw this statutory instrument.

[Lord Henley]

I will not comment on my legitimacy in front of the noble Lord, but I can assure him that I still have enthusiasm. I await guidance on what is going on in another place. Meanwhile, it is probably right and proper that we deal with this. Irrespective of that result, there is still the possibility that we might leave the EU without a deal. The noble Lord will be aware of all the legislation that has gone through with support from all parties, setting out what we will do and that if there is no deal we will leave on 29 March. That remains the situation at this stage. So it would be useful to continue with these regulations, which are designed purely to deal with a no-deal situation.

I will deal with some of the points made, starting with those from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, who referred again to asymmetry—I was worried that he was stealing it from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I will make it clear that we are making changes here, because we can, but obviously we cannot control how other member states deal with their legislation. We think it is right to do so and so give certainty to the UK in the event of no deal. That is what we will do and we will continue to negotiate to deal with other matters.

Turning to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I am glad he reminded us that this regulation has generally been welcomed by industry; I think that is the case and it is very important. He also asked what assessment we had made of the total cost to business for all the no-deal SIs—I think that was the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. On 28 November we published a robust, objective assessment of potential impacts on sectors, nations and regions of the UK, and it shows that our deal—which obviously had not been rejected by another place—would be the best available for jobs and economies. We will continue to publish individual impact assessments to accompany legislation, as we have done on many occasions, including SIs where appropriate.

I turn finally to the questions relating to the JCSI asked by my noble friend Lord Lexden. Again, I am grateful for his words. I repeat the praise for the JCSI, which I first served on some 35 years ago. We are fully aware of its concerns. As my noble friend may have seen, the department issued the very detailed memorandum to the committee that is attached to the report, setting out the reasons why the transitional provisions are important to protect the United Kingdom’s position on exit day in a no-deal scenario. I do not intend to go through all the points that were raised in that memorandum, other than to say that the safeguard provided is necessary to enable the court to act where there is an adverse impact of exit on insolvency cases that are already open on exit day. That power provided to the courts to deal with cases that are ongoing on exit day is both necessary and proportionate, and is similar to provisions found in other UK insolvency law. It would not be possible to limit its scope without potentially tying the hands of the courts in dealing with these matters.

I believe that I have dealt with the points that were raised, and I beg to move.

Intellectual Property (Exhaustion of Rights) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Monday 14th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not aware that these regulations have yet been through the Commons, but they will in the usual way in due course. It has been agreed, and it has been advertised on the Order Paper, that we would take these three regulations—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

With respect, that is only if everyone agrees—and I for one do not agree.

[Lord Henley]

I notice that the noble Lord does not agree, but in line with the usual courtesies of the House, it would have been helpful if he had at least mentioned this to his noble friend the Opposition Chief Whip or even to my noble friend the Government Chief Whip.

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, obviously I am in the hands of the Committee and I am quite happy to do whatever the Committee finds most convenient. I did not say that I would move all three en bloc; I said that I would move the first one and then speak to all three. That is very different, if the noble Lord follows me. The only point I was making is that there is an understanding that certain things are agreed by the usual channels and that these instruments would be spoken to together. One of the usual courtesies of the Committee, but obviously the noble Lord does not wish to follow that, is that one would have a word with the usual channels, or at least the noble Lord’s noble friend.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

[Lord Henley]

Sit down. The noble Lord can wait a minute.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

[Lord Henley]

I am not giving way—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

That is a terrible way to address another Member of the House. Will the noble Lord withdraw that remark immediately? This is absolutely disgraceful. I have never been treated like that before by anyone.

[Lord Henley]

I will apologise to the noble Lord for that. He has probably been treated in much the same way on many occasions. I am just explaining to him what the usual procedures are. If he does not want me to do that, I will take it back and go back to the beginning—if he will give me a couple of minutes—move the first regulation, speak to that, listen to noble Lords and then do the others.

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[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have never been addressed in that way before by a colleague, in 26 years in the House of Commons and now 13 in the House of Lords: by someone saying, “Sit down!” in a peremptory fashion. Perhaps if the noble Lord had said, “I am not prepared to give way at this moment”, we would have understood. I was rising to say that if this Minister had any degree of sensitivity at all, and if he had been watching what had been going on on the Floor of the House and in this Committee, he would have seen that we have on a number of occasions challenged these matters being taken together. I have done it myself on three or four occasions on the Floor of the House, and I have done it twice in this Committee. A number of other Members, including my noble friend Lord Adonis, have also raised the issue. If the Minister had been aware, he would have understood that. I have also mentioned it to our Chief Whip and to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, the Government Chief Whip. If that has not been communicated to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, it is certainly not our fault.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, no communications have come to me to the effect that the noble Lord wished to take these three regulations separately. My understanding was that we would take them together, and I thought that it would be convenient to the Committee. I have now amended what I am going to say and, if the noble Lord is happy with this, I will go back to what I said originally and move and speak to the first one, and if the noble Lord and his noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, will bear with me, we will take all three separately. I have a number of speeches, and I can use whichever the noble Lord prefers to have first. However, he would probably prefer to have the first one, concerning the Intellectual Property (Exhaustion of Rights) (EU Exit) Regulations, which were laid before the House on 27 November.

This draft instrument ensures that the United Kingdom’s domestic rules for the exhaustion of intellectual property rights will continue to function in a predictable manner in a scenario where there is no negotiated agreement on the terms of the UK’s exit from the EU. The UK is recognised for its strong intellectual property regime—

Patents (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Monday 14th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not sure if it is helpful to continue this discussion. That point is for another regulation, not the ones we are discussing at the moment. We will, no doubt, get to that one—and to that point—in due course. I am not making any accusation that the noble Lord has misled the Committee and I do not think I have misled it. I have made it clear who was consulted and I was hoping I could deal with that in my closing remarks as that might have been a neater and tidier way of dealing with these matters. I will leave it there.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I wonder if the Minister could help me out. I have been listening to the speeches since I came back from the Liaison Committee. In the light of what we have just heard, is the Minister still pressing ahead with this statutory instrument? Would it not be better for him to withdraw it and clear up some of these points before we consider it again?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I will continue with these regulations: I have moved them. No doubt the noble Lord will say, as he and other noble Lords have done with other regulations, that he is not happy for them to be considered by this Committee and they can then be considered in another place. However, we are having a useful discussion at this stage, which I want to be part of, and we should complete what we are doing and deal with as much as is relevant to these regulations as we can. I will continue to do that and I will listen to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, conclude his speech. The noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Stevenson, and other noble Lords will no doubt wish to intervene. I will then respond to that, as is right, proper and normal. It is up to noble Lords to decide where they wish to take things after that. However, we wish to get this through, to provide continued certainty for this body and to assist the whole life sciences industry, the importance of which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has just reminded the Committee.

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I confess that I cannot begin to answer the noble Lord’s question about the Isle of Man, and promise to write on that and the other issues I did not manage to cover. I note what he says about the advice that my department—the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy—should take from Her Majesty’s Treasury. As with all departments, we always listen carefully to what our colleagues in the Treasury say, and this time will be no exception.

I was not intending to intervene in the middle of the debate, but I did, and so to get back to this question of consultation and how we set about this with these regulations—which I repeat, are only to deal with the no-deal possibility I think the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, would be the first to agree that we would be irresponsible in not having done something should that eventuality arise. I give way to the noble Lord.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The Minister has been very kind and polite, and I am most grateful to him. Talking about the impossibility of dealing with things, I—like the noble Lord, Lord Deben—have some sympathy with him, and even more with his civil servants behind him. In today’s Order Paper, there are 38 affirmative instruments waiting for consideration by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 65 affirmative instruments waiting for affirmative resolution and 18 proposed negative statutory instruments made under the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017. Is it not irresponsible to be pressing ahead with this, with no proper scrutiny on things such as conservation, animal health, veterinary surgery, pesticides, employment rights, construction products, insurance distribution, maritime transport, motor vehicles, plant health, air quality? I could go on and on. We are rushing them all through. Is that not irresponsible? Is that not a waste of the Minister’s time and the time of the well-qualified people behind him, in anticipation of something none of us really want to happen? Would it not be better if the Minister came to his senses now, withdrew this order and, along with all his other colleagues, said, “We are not going to take any more of these orders through the Grand Committee and the House of Lords because it is a total waste of time and totally irresponsible”?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am always kind and polite to the noble Lord. I know he is a delicate flower and does not want me to be too hard on him.

I appreciate there are a lot of no-deal regulations and that we are asking a lot of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. The noble Lord has served on that wonderful committee, as have we all, and it does a very good job, as do the other committees that have this duty. We are satisfied that they have enough time and resources. I think the House feels that it too has enough time. This can be discussed by the usual channels. We are having a very useful debate this evening and I am looking forward to continuing that process. It is difficult, but equally it would be much more irresponsible not to be moving regulations or producing them for the eventuality that there was a no deal, because the noble Lord will be aware that as a result of Article 50 and various other Acts of Parliament that have been through both Houses, if we do not reach an agreement by 29 March, we leave the EU without a deal. This order, the previous order and other orders are designed to provide that certainty businesses need, and we will continue to move the appropriate orders.

Productivity: Work-related Stress

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, it is very good that we have such an experienced Minister replying to this Question. Can I urge him to consider introducing counselling sessions for those experiencing work-related depression and anxiety at the moment—namely, members of the Cabinet?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not think any counselling is necessary.

Brexit: Creative Sector

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Wednesday 20th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not going to rehearse all the arguments that we might debate later or on other occasions about the single market or whatever. I have to make it clear to the noble Earl that the negotiations continue. As I said, we have a pretty good intellectual property regime, but there are areas where we need to get things right. We will pursue that in the negotiations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, notwithstanding his replies and the squalid stitch-up taking place down the Corridor, we are on our way to disaster if we continue down the road to Brexit?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not going to waste my time answering the noble Lord’s question.

Ffos-y-Fran Opencast Coal Mine

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

If the noble Baroness wants to put a Question down on that subject, she is perfectly entitled to do so. That is not what this Question is about. I will respond to that Question if the noble Baroness puts it down.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will recall that I am a great enthusiast for devolution. However, can I point out that he is not correct in what he said? My understanding, as a long-time supporter and student of devolution, is that the UK Government would not normally intervene. That word “normally” is in the legislation. Perhaps the Minister could think again.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not going to think again. The 2006 Act is perfectly clear, as are the other Acts offering further powers to the Welsh Government. This is a matter for the Welsh Government, and they have responded.

Brexit: Employment Protection for Women

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Thursday 8th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend makes a very good point about women’s rights: two of his wives lost their heads. I will think about that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Will the Minister tell the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that we can go beyond EU standards now as far as women’s rights are concerned, while we are still a member of the European Union. This Parliament remains sovereign, which is why we are not instructed by an advisory referendum.

[Lord Henley]

I do not think that the noble Lord listened to my noble friend Lord Forsyth as he should have done. My noble friend Lord Forsyth made exactly that point. This Parliament is sovereign, and we are ahead of what happens in Europe on many things. Can the noble Lord look very carefully at what my noble friend said?

Energy: Domestic Tariffs

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we are seeing reductions in the price of renewable energy and we are working to bring the price of nuclear energy down. My noble friend is quite right: the crucial issue is the price of energy that consumers have to pay, which is why we are helping them to shop around to get the best deal.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is not simple to switch energy suppliers, particularly for older people? In fact, it is easier to switch churches.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I know a little about switching energy supplier. I do not know much about switching churches but perhaps the noble Lord can offer some advice to the right reverend Prelates—not that I think they will want to be switching churches at this stage. More seriously, the noble Lord is right to draw attention to the fact that not enough people know how to set about switching energy. Sophisticated people like him know that they can go online and do it, but that is much harder for older people—people even older than the noble Lord himself—who are possibly less technically sophisticated than he is. This is why we are offering help and funding the Big Energy Saving Network, which we hope will provide assistance to vulnerable consumers.

Police: Working Conditions

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

If I heard my noble friend correctly, he asked whether we would be happy to give evidence. Of course we would.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Could the Minister make it absolutely clear—I am sorry; the noble Lord, Lord Elton, reminds me to keep my hands behind my back—that, where we have the Army, G4S and the police working together during the Olympic and Paralympic Games, it will be the police chief who has ultimate responsibility for issuing orders and dealing with disorder, and not G4S or the Army?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as I made clear the other day, security is ultimately a matter for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. However, in the event of there being a major incident, it will obviously be the police who will take charge of operational matters at that stage.

Immigration: Detention of Children at Heathrow

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

All I know is that the UK Border Agency and BAA have had considerable discussions about these matters over the years. Obviously I cannot give evidence about the precise detail of those discussions, but we know that they are aware of the problems because we have also discussed the matter with BAA. The important point to remember is that we will do what we can to improve things. We have only just received this report, which came in two days ago. We will be responding to it within the appropriate period of six weeks. We know that things are not entirely satisfactory but we are talking about holding people only in the very short term while a decision is made. We hope that that will not be longer than 24 hours. If it is, as I made clear, we have other facilities, such as Tinsley House, available.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

This matter was raised during the time of the Labour Government and the Liberal Democrats attacked us, understandably, about the detention of young children. They promised that once the coalition took over, the detention of children would be ended immediately. Now, two years later, children are still being detained. This is yet another promise—one put forward particularly by the Liberal Democrats—that has been reneged on.

[Lord Henley]

Dare I say that the noble Lord makes a very silly point, and not for the first time, as my noble friend the Deputy Leader says? We are talking about getting rid of detention. We are not talking about detaining children; we are talking about detaining people for as little as 24 hours in this facility.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

You are still detaining children.

[Lord Henley]

Is the noble Lord suggesting that they should be removed from their parents and sent somewhere else? That strikes me as even worse. This is complete nonsense. We think that the children should stay with their parents for that short time in the holding facility. If they cannot go there, they go to Tinsley House—a place that we have all accepted as being perfectly acceptable for children and their families to go to.

Abu Qatada

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Monday 30th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the current position regarding the deportation of Abu Qatada.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, we await the decision of the European Court of Human Rights on whether to accept Qatada’s referral request. We wrote to the Strasbourg court to ask that it reject this application both on the merits of the case and on the timing of his request. Qatada, meanwhile, remains in detention.

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[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, let us forget the shambles of last week. Will the Minister explain exactly how and when this terrorist is going to be deported?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I cannot give a precise answer on when he will be deported because that matter is in the courts. However, I do not accept what the noble Lord says about there being a shambles last week. It was quite clear from all the advice and all the precedents that the three months for making the referral expired at midnight on 16 April. My right honourable friend made her decision on that basis. We now await to see what the courts are doing.

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the point I was making, if the noble Baroness would be fair enough to listen to me, was that we had been in regular contact with the court on these matters. It was quite clear from precedent and legal advice that the case that I have put forward is the right one. Therefore we were satisfied that we were right to consider that the last possible moment for referral was 16 April at midnight.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, this is a serious question—with respect to those opposite—and the Minister has still not answered the questions about the future. What are the Home Office’s plans for dealing with this man and when can we expect him to be deported? Please can I have an answer?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, and like the previous Government—who tried to do something about this for 10 years—I and all other noble Lords would like to see this man deported as soon as possible. He represents a very real risk to this country, and this has been going on for 10 years. However, we must abide by the rule of law and we must wait until the court makes its decision. I do not know when the European court will deal with this referral case. As far as I am concerned as a very simple lawyer, this looks like a pretty simple case that the court could deal with pretty quickly, if for no other reason than that it is obvious that he is out of time in his referral.

Higher Education: Funding

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

Obviously, one course will cost more than others according to the sort of subject being taught. My noble friend is right to make that point. It will still be open to HEFCE to provide money for courses that are necessarily more expensive. It will do that as is appropriate. Whether this is a matter on which my right honourable friend should make a statement is another matter, but I will certainly draw the point that my noble friend has made to his attention.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, since the Scottish Executive are under the same financial constraints as the UK Government, will the Minister explain to the House, and indeed to English students, how it is that Scottish students can go to Scottish universities without paying any fees at all?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, fortunately I am not responsible for the Scottish Executive, and I have no intention of answering for them. The circumstances in this country are different, but perhaps the noble Lord could have a word with his noble friend Lord Barnett and have a lengthy discussion, to his own benefit, on the Barnett formula, how it works and what benefits it brings to those who live north of the border.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Henley

Monday 28th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I could not agree more with the noble Lord, other than that I believe that a smaller—I am not going to suggest a figure, as I think that it would be wrong to get into figures at this stage—manageable panel under an independent chairman is the best way forward. I apologise if the noble Lord felt that I had put words into his mouth. I appreciate that I have probably done that in the past and I will probably do it again in the future. However, I got the impression that he was pushing for bringing everyone in. The danger when a great many people want to be on something is that, if you do not make it clear right from the start that you want a small and appropriately focused committee, you end up giving in to every possible demand and you end up with something that is unwieldy and unfocused and cannot do the job. This panel will have the right to set up sub-groups or sub-committees—whatever you call them—so that it can consult. We want to make sure that it talks to all those who have put in their views.

That is why it is also very important that we have an appropriately independent chair. I am grateful for questions that I have received on this from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and others about how that will be done. All I can say at this stage is that the independent chairman will be appointed by the Secretary of State after consultation. As we want this to report by the autumn, we want to move on relatively speedily. I am sure that whomever we appoint, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who is smiling at this stage, will accept that we have appointed the right person, because he always does in the end when we find the right person. I am sure that he is not putting himself forward for this job. He will accept that we will find the right person in due course. It will be an independent panel under an independent chair.

That brings me on to the other comments that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, made. As a former Member for a Birmingham seat, he raised the question of motorsport and its use of the forests. He was right to do that because it is important that we remember that there are diverse users of all the forests. Forests are not just there for growing timber, even though that is very important. Forests are also there for people who want to walk, to ride or to drive and for those involved in motorsports. They are also very important for biodiversity. In my own part of the world, up in Kielder, the forest is important for the few surviving red squirrels that we have in this country. There are a whole host of different uses that conflict with one another, which means that any decision about access has to take into account biodiversity interests. I imagine that not all of those who are keen on walking in the forests are that keen on some of the motorsports going on. We have to balance those issues. I am sure that the noble Lord will accept that. It is one of the things that we will make sure is done in due course.

Both right reverend Prelates referred to the Forest of Dean and the fact that it is a special case. I accept that the Forest of Dean is a special case. It was made a special case in law as a result of the 1981 Act, if not before. Actually the Forest of Dean and the New Forest have been special cases—I cannot say for how long, so I had probably better use this legal term—“since time immemorial”. It goes back that far. The odd thing about the Forest of Dean and the New Forest is that, as I understand it, they were originally part of the Crown Estate and then for some reason—why they but not others I do not know—became part of the Forestry Commission. The simple fact is that they are now part of the Forestry Commission and not part of the Crown Estate. That is where we are. Another public forest, Epping Forest, has gone into the ownership and management of the City of London. The Forestry Commission is not necessarily the only public body that can look after public forests in the best way. Epping Forest is not the only exception to that, but I accept that it is a special case.

That brings me to the planning issues raised by my noble friend Lady Williams and the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth. Yes, we are aware that there will be changes as a result of the Localism Bill. We can give assurances, as my right honourable friend Greg Clark has done, that protection for ancient woodland in the existing planning guidance will be carried over into the national policy framework. All that will be done, but we also feel that, as a result of the Localism Bill, it is important, as my noble friend Lady Williams put it, that local communities should have a right to have some input into what is going on in the forests or small woodlands in their area.

I want to touch on one or two other points. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, talked about jobs. I must make it quite clear to the noble Lord and his party that the Forestry Commission, like a lot of other public bodies, including public bodies within Defra, will have to take its cuts and reductions as a result of the mess that we inherited. It is no different from any other body. The change of tack that we have indicated on forests does not necessarily mean any change of policy in what the Forestry Commission does in terms of its staff. That is a matter for the Forestry Commission to manage.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I put it to the Minister that two factors are affecting the staff at Corstorphine. One is the general economic climate in which, as he says, they must take the hits along with other public bodies. The second is the Government’s policy on forestry. As I understand it, the U-turn involved the Forestry Commission continuing to manage forests in England, for which staff at Corstorphine have responsibility, so surely it is wrong to continue with the same level of redundancies as was envisaged when the policy was different. Will the Minister not have another look to see whether some of the jobs in Edinburgh need to be continued to deal with the new policy that has been announced, into which he has gone into detail?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I never like to accuse the noble Lord of not having done something, because he is assiduous in his parliamentary work, but it is obvious from what he says that he has made no effort to read the entire forestry consultation that we put forward and have now withdrawn. If he had read that, he would have known that there is no immediate plan to sell off everything willy-nilly, as he seems to be suggesting, and as a result lay off half the Forestry Commission. We were looking at very long-term plans possibly to change the ownership of this forest or that but, in many cases, it would have involved transferring money to whoever took over some of those bodies. We were not at that stage considering reducing the number of staff, but we are asking the Forestry Commission, like all other bodies attached to Defra and other government bodies, to take its fair share of the reductions that the Government are having to make as a result of what we inherited.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have had discussions with the representatives of the trade unions from Silvan House, who have briefed me in detail on that. My understanding is that at least some of the proposed redundancies relate to the previous policy, which has now been abandoned. Unless my logic is completely crazy, it would seem that if you change your policy and continue with the present arrangements to look after some of the English forests from the Forestry Commission headquarters, a review must be needed of whether the large number of redundancies originally envisaged is still now necessary. Is that not the case?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is not the case. I am not sure that the advice which the noble Lord has received was necessarily—dare I put it this way—as accurate as it might have been. Anyway, the simple fact is that the Forestry Commission, along with others, will have to take its cut because of what we inherited.

I hope that I have dealt with all the points that have been put to me in the course of the debate. I appreciate the strength of feeling that had been held, and I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Clark, will now press his amendment. As I said, we will support it. I hope that the rest of the House will support it and that we can move on to other matters in the Bill.