Scottish Independence Referendum

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dunlop

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

Yes, I agree with the noble Baroness. I meet many Scottish businesses and have yet to find one which thinks that it is a good idea to engender such uncertainty by calling for another independence referendum. It should be a matter of concern for all of us that the economic data for Scotland show that the Scottish economy is lagging behind the rest of the UK. Those data started coming out before the vote last June. It is a matter that we should attend to. The UK Government are committed to working with the Scottish Government to focus on those issues, which are so important for the Scottish economy.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Has the Minister noticed, however, that the arguments being used by Nicola Sturgeon for pulling Scotland out of the United Kingdom are exactly the same as those used by Theresa May for pulling the United Kingdom out of the European Union? Does that not create a problem for the Government?

[Lord Dunlop]

The problem for us is an SNP Government, with their one-track mind, using the pretext of Brexit to pursue their obsession with taking Scotland out of the United Kingdom. We know that the UK market is worth four times more to Scottish businesses than the EU market.

Scottish Government: Welfare

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dunlop

Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord McAvoy, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, we have made significant progress to transfer the welfare powers in the Scotland Act 2016. Eleven provisions are already in force, including new powers for the Scottish Parliament to create new benefits in devolved areas and top up any reserved benefits. The UK Government remain committed to a safe and secure transfer of powers, and the joint ministerial working group on welfare continues to oversee plans for commencement of the remaining welfare provisions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that time after time the SNP has asked for powers to mitigate the effects of Tory austerity in Scotland? It now has the tax powers and the welfare powers, but it does absolutely nothing. Does that not confirm that it prefers to moan and whine rather than to accept responsibility?

[Lord Dunlop]

I certainly recall what the noble Lord says, and I have a degree of sympathy with what he is saying. It is clear that the Scottish Government are having to face up to the reality that demanding the devolution of more powers is not the same as being able to use those powers effectively. If you want to replace existing programmes, you need first to know what you are replacing them with. The Government’s priority must be and is to work with the Scottish Government to ensure the safe and secure transfer of devolved welfare powers.

Brexit: Scotland

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dunlop

Thursday 15th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

The First Minister of Scotland was before the Scottish Parliament’s European and External Relations Committee yesterday. I think she said that there have been extensive ongoing discussions between the Scottish and UK Governments and that she was very optimistic that the discussions could make progress. I am sure that the issue raised by the noble and learned Lord will feature in those discussions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that if the First Minister of Scotland accepts the Brexit referendum as binding, she should also accept the Scottish referendum as binding? Will the United Kingdom Government make it clear that we would not agree to another Scottish referendum in the foreseeable future?

[Lord Dunlop]

The noble Lord will know that the SNP has announced a listening exercise in Scotland—and if it were listening, I think the first thing that it would do would be to take “indyref 2”, as it is known in Scotland, off the table. It is absolutely clear from all the recent opinion polls that the majority of Scots do not want it. Just as important is that business does not want it either, because businesses can see that it is damaging to investment and the economy. So I totally agree that it should be taken off the table.

Scotland’s Fiscal Framework

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dunlop

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

On that last point, absolutely I believe that this is a deal that is fair to all parts of the United Kingdom. That is what the Smith agreement was all about—being fair to Scotland and fair to the UK as a whole. That is what this deal delivers.

To address directly the first of the two points that the noble Lord raises—and this was a point that came up in the House of Commons—on the cost of the deal to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, there is no additional cost to the taxpayers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This deal produces the same outcome as Barnett set out in the comprehensive spending review. There is no adverse impact on UK taxpayers.

On the noble Lord’s other issue—I forget what it was; oh yes, it was the point about transition—the Scotland Bill, that delivers the Smith agreement, is a significant act of devolution. It represents a new world and an opportunity for a new politics in Scotland, one in which blame can no longer be heaped at Westminster’s door. It is absolutely right to have a review on how the far-reaching arrangements are working in practice to ensure that, as my right honourable friend says, they are fair, transparent and effective in line with the Smith agreement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

While I join in the welcome given to the Statement and the agreement, is the Minister aware that at this very moment HMRC offices in Scotland are being closed and thousands of people put on the dole? Is not this a stupid thing to do at a time when there are going to be more responsibilities on revenue and customs in Scotland?

[Lord Dunlop]

I assure the noble Lord that we are very confident that the delivery of these powers will go ahead as intended.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dunlop

Tuesday 24th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

I shall come on to speak about the fiscal framework. The Government of Scotland and the UK Government are negotiating the fiscal framework and exactly how we put those principles, including the no-detriment principles, into practice. I will come back to that.

The Bill also enables the devolution of many other responsibilities, from the management of the Crown Estate’s economic assets in Scotland to the management and operation of reserved tribunals. The Commons also agreed the devolution of abortion policy, which the Smith agreement concluded was an anomalous reservation. There are also significant measures relating to transport and energy.

I want to say something about the fiscal framework, to which my noble friend has alluded, the importance of which is rightly recognised by many of your Lordships. I am particularly grateful for the work done on this by the Economic Affairs Committee. The Government agree with the committee that the relationship between the fiscal framework and the legislative powers in the Bill is critical. It underpins the transfer of tax and welfare powers to Holyrood. The issues raised by the committee’s report are exactly those being addressed in the detailed negotiations between the UK and Scottish Governments. Both Governments have agreed not to provide a running commentary—negotiating in public is not conducive to reaching an agreement.

We are committed to reaching an agreement as soon as we can after tomorrow’s spending review and the draft Scottish budget on 16 December. We cannot guarantee when the negotiations will end—that is not in our gift—and to try unilaterally to set a specific date risks weakening our negotiating position. I hope the House will understand both Governments need time and space to reach an agreement that is right for Scotland and the UK as a whole and is built to last.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

I am sure the House will recognise that, but can the Minister help us? If, during the discussions on the fiscal framework, the Scottish Government’s representatives conclude, as they may well do, that they are better off with a block grant based on the current arrangement of the Barnett formula than raising money through the tax powers on a low tax base, and if they do not accept the proposal from the UK Government on the fiscal framework and the Scottish Parliament fails to give legislative consent to this Bill, what is the Government’s plan B?

[Lord Dunlop]

I seem to have heard “plan B” somewhere before. I say to the noble Lord that we are planning for success here. We working for success and the UK and Scottish Governments are saying the same thing. We are working constructively together to reach an agreement as soon as we can and good progress is being made.

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[Lord Dunlop]

That all depends on what is agreed in the fiscal framework. For example, if you look at the last Scotland Bill, there were issues to do with borrowing that needed to be put in primary legislation. The outcome of the fiscal framework will determine what legislation we need to underpin that.

The third point I wanted to make was on the legitimacy of the process. Given the degree of cross-party consensus on the devolution of further powers to Scotland, whatever the result of the general election in May there would have been a UK government Minister standing here arguing for the Smith agreement to be implemented in full. That is the nature of the cross-party agreement. The Scotland Bill and delivering the Smith commission agreement in full was, as I said, a manifesto commitment of all three UK parties. Against that background, I ask the House to consider how it would play with voters of Scotland, six months out from important Holyrood elections, if your Lordships were seen to hold up the passage of this Bill.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I wonder if the Minister could answer the question I asked right at the start. I have waited patiently for the last seven hours for him to do so. If there is no agreement on the fiscal framework —that is entirely possible—and, as a result of that, the Scottish Parliament refuses to give consent to this Bill, what is his alternative?

[Lord Dunlop]

I am afraid that I am going to give to the noble Lord the same response that I gave earlier. We are working very hard to get a success and an agreement on this fiscal framework.

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was one of those who suggested that the Scottish Government do not want a fiscal framework agreed or to take on the new powers in this Bill. I do not accept that—and I have to say that I think there has been a tension in this debate. On the one hand, the noble Lord, Lord Lang, and others, have called for improving intergovernmental relations and, on the other hand, we have heard it said that actually we should not trust the Scottish Government. We have to operate on the basis that the Scottish Government are negotiating in good faith.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Could the Minister answer the question that I put to the noble Lord, Lord Smith? John Swinney signed the Smith agreement, which was meant to be agreed by all parties. Then he came out immediately and denounced it. How can you describe that as good faith?

[Lord Dunlop]

I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, answered that question very well. He put it in the context of an agreement, every aspect of which they signed up to—but, clearly, the SNP is a party that believes in independence, and therefore the whole context should be seen in that light.

The Deputy First Minister has agreed that finalising the fiscal framework is essential to delivering the Smith commission proposals. To touch on what the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said earlier, in the debate, he has spoken to both Governments and is confident that talks will deliver a fiscal framework in line with the principles set out in the agreement. As I said in my opening speech, talks have been constructive. We have agreed every step jointly with the Scottish Government and are working hard to agree a fiscal framework that is built to last, and is fair for Scotland and for the UK as a whole.

Scotland: Block Grant

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dunlop

Monday 15th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what changes they propose to the calculation of the block grant to Scotland, in the light of the recent and proposed increased tax-raising powers of the Scottish Parliament.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, as set out in the cross-party Smith agreement, the Scottish Government’s block grant will be reduced to reflect their increased tax powers. The UK and Scottish Governments have agreed to work to finalise the new fiscal framework by the autumn, alongside the passage of the Scotland Bill. The Barnett formula will continue as part of these arrangements, but as the Scottish Government will become more than 50% self-funded, changes in their funding will increasingly reflect changes in Scottish tax.

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[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, it is good to see a Scotland Office Minister answering on behalf of the Treasury. Will he agree with me that, as long as any part of the expenditure of the Scottish Government is covered by a block grant, they will find a way of blaming Westminster either for cuts in expenditure or increases in taxes? Therefore, is it not time that the Government thought seriously about setting up a constitutional convention—or commission or convocation, whatever they would like to call it—which would look at all aspects of the governance of the United Kingdom, including full fiscal responsibility for every Parliament within the United Kingdom?

[Lord Dunlop]

My Lords, the noble Lord may well be right that the SNP Government will seek to continue to blame the United Kingdom Government, but the people of Scotland would certainly blame the UK Government more if we landed them with a £10 billion funding gap, costing every family in Scotland £5,000 in higher taxes or spending cuts. That would be the price of full fiscal autonomy. The Government cannot support such a plan because we do not believe that it would be good for Scotland. We want a balanced settlement fair to all parts of the UK and our priority is to deliver the Scotland Bill, which will make Holyrood one of the most powerful and accountable devolved Parliaments in the world.

Smith Commission: Implementation

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dunlop

Monday 8th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

It is absolutely right that, in addition to taking forward the commitments to constitutional reform in each part of our United Kingdom, including England, it is necessary to look at how those devolution settlements work as a whole. That is why the Government are committed to reviewing the intergovernmental arrangements and taking them forward in discussion with the devolved Administrations. We will do that, and listen carefully to the lively debate which I am sure will take place on how best we can make our devolution settlements work as a whole.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that there are lots of wealthy people in Scotland—landowners, industrialists and so on, not all of whom, by the way, are now members of the Tory party—and will he tell the House what action the so-called radical left-wing Scottish Government have taken to redistribute wealth within Scotland, using their existing tax powers?

[Lord Dunlop]

The noble Lord makes a very good point indeed. In addition to debating and asking for more powers, the debate should increasingly focus on how the Scottish Government intend to use their existing powers and the very considerable powers that will be coming their way in the very near future.