Command Paper Safeguarding the Union

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 6th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise if I was not clear in my Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, but I thought that I was. As was also said in her Written Answer, as I understand it, in practice its contents are primarily an agreement in principle that has now been superseded by the more detailed arrangements of the Windsor Framework and the wider withdrawal agreement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, just as the Kremlin interfered in the referendum on Brexit, because it is in its interest to see the break-up of the European Union, it is now undermining the United Kingdom in a number of ways, including through social media, particularly in supporting certain parties in Ireland and in the rest of the United Kingdom? Will she discuss with colleagues having increased activity by our intelligence services and others to try to make sure that this is stopped immediately?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, if there is any malign influence in the elections in this country or its politics from a hostile state, or any other country that seeks to undermine our democracy, we will of course do whatever is necessary to protect our democracy, which we regard as having the utmost integrity.

Scotland

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 4th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, that question goes a little wider than anticipated, but I admire the noble Lord’s ingenuity. The important thing for young people and older people across the UK is to know that they have a Government who work with the devolved Governments in their best interests. That is what has been lacking for some time.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, can the Leader of the House confirm that this is the best settlement in real terms since the Scottish Parliament was set up, and yet the services in education, health and other devolved areas are deteriorating in Scotland? Will the Government do everything possible to stop the Scottish Government spending money on vanity projects, such as “Air Miles” Angus—their pretend Foreign Secretary—travelling the equivalent of three times around the world already? Can they make sure that every penny the Scottish Government get is spent on devolved areas?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I think my noble friend hits the nub of the issue. Yes, he is right, and I am happy to agree with him: it is the largest real-terms Budget settlement for the Scottish Government in the history of devolution. It is £1.5 billion in this financial year and will be £3.4 billion in the next. The point he made is that how that money is spent is really important. We have seen poorer outcomes in Scotland for people in the National Health Service, with longer waiting lists, and educational standards have not increased as they should. This is where that money should be focused—to deliver real benefits for the people of Scotland.

House of Lords: Composition

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 5th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I have had no approaches from the party opposite about its numbers. On the noble Lord’s point about wider Lords reform, for the last 25 years one of the arguments has been that nothing should be done until everything can be done—but no one agrees on what “everything” is. A piecemeal approach is by far the better way. The party opposite complains about Lords reform, but in the years that it was in government the only proposal it came forward with was to move the House of Lords to York.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, could the Leader of the House advise me whether this was included in the Labour Party manifesto, what the result of the general election was and what majority was achieved by the Labour Party? On a more serious note, can she confirm that, if any hereditary Peers were thought fit to be appointed as life Peers, that could be done?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

This was part of the Labour Party manifesto at the last election. Noble Lords may recall that the passage of my noble friend Lord Grocott’s Bill to end the hereditary Peers by-elections was blocked. Perhaps 10, 15 or 20 years ago that might have been a better way forward, but that opportunity has now passed. The election result was quite clear. I can confirm that, if Members leave this House as hereditary Peers, there is no block at all to them coming back as life Peers if their party wishes to introduce them.

Civil Service: Recruitment

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 4th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness’s commitment to this issue—however recent it may be. Perhaps I can tell her that around 80,000 people were hired through open competitions and around 9,000 were hired through the different exception routes. She should look at this, because there is a very different role for special advisers and civil servants and there are criteria by which, if people are appointed to the Civil Service, they have to be agreed by the department following certain criteria and they need to abide by the Civil Service Code. I am sure she is aware of that. The same process is undertaken now as it was under previous Administrations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, has the Leader of the House noticed that the inquiry announced by the First Civil Service Commissioner goes back only to 1 July, so does not cover any of the really dodgy appointments made by the previous Government? Does this not throw doubt on the impartiality of the First Civil Service Commissioner, who herself has received great largesse from the Tory Government—no doubt due to her leadership of the Brexit campaign?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am confident that the rules in place mean that no Government have made dodgy appointments to the Civil Service—because the rules are very clear on this. On the first part of my noble friend’s question—why the current review is being carried out only from 1 July—apparently there is a regular, ongoing, routine investigation and audit by the commission, but this is exceptional and in addition to that. Apparently, the commissioner wrote to heads of department to say that it was in view of the “recent interest in appointments by exception”—but all appointments are part of a regular audit process.

House of Lords: Nominations for Appointment

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the arrangements for nominations for appointment to the House of Lords.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to improving the appointments process. There are two key areas here: one is to ensure that those who are appointed to your Lordships’ House are committed to the work of this House and are willing and able to play their part; and, secondly, we need to look at the national and regional balance of your Lordships’ House. We are actively reconsidering how best this might be achieved, and I would be grateful for the views of colleagues. The Government are grateful for the work of HOLAC in vetting life peerage nominations and in nominating Cross-Benchers, and we look forward to working with the commission.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I thank the Leader for her helpful reply. There seems to be general agreement that the House is too large. Does she agree that one of the problems is two different perceptions of what a peerage is? Some see it as merely an honour—one above a knighthood—and therefore do not expect to have to attend this House; others of us see it as a job to be done, an appointment to the second Chamber of the legislature, and therefore we should attend regularly and vote. Is there some way of separating or disentangling these? Working Peers should be the only ones who are able to attend, to vote and to participate in the work of this House.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we have heard from the response from across the House how seriously those who are here in your Lordships’ House take their responsibilities. It is an honour to be appointed a Peer, and that brings with it responsibilities to the work that we do. I listened to the noble Lord’s comments on the King’s Speech about this, and I will look at and consider the issue. The House is large, and I think we have to ensure that we focus on the active contributions. Going forward, we will look at colleagues’ participation and the range of participation that Members are involved in—from voting in the Lobbies to taking part in committees to engaging in debates. I will take his views away and will take soundings from other colleagues across the House.

Government Standards

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 25th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I say to the noble Lord that I will do my utmost on that. He and I have discussed this before, and all Ministers are aware that their priority is to your Lordships’ House, reporting back to it and answering questions in a way that is concise but also gives the information that is required. If there are problems as we get going then we will look into those, but we will do our utmost to always respond in good time to every Member of your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, there is a terrible temptation to go through all the indiscretions of the Ministers of the last Government, but Boris Johnson’s alone would take up the whole of this Question Time so I shall deal with the allocations to the Covid VIP lane. We have at last agreed to set up a Covid corruption commissioner, and I hope he or she will look into this matter as quickly as possible. Can the Leader of the House give us an indication as to when the commissioner will be appointed? It should be as quickly as possible.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Having just promised to give full answers, I do not have a full answer for my noble friend. I will look into that and come back to it, but we want to get moving on issues like this as quickly as possible. In his first speech in Downing Street, the Prime Minister said we have to prove to people that we will do things differently and do things well. It is not about saying something but about how we act—and how we act in getting to the bottom of some of the issues that have caused enormous concern is very important. I assure him we will do that as quickly as possible.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 17th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness could say a bit more about the Motion before the House. My understanding is that that Motion, which we are not opposing, means that on three Tuesdays the House should sit at 11 am, for long sittings. I point out to your Lordships’ House that the House is now sitting longer and later than at any other time I can recall, either in my time in this place or beforehand.

As an official Opposition, we do not stand in the way of the Government managing their business and getting their business through—but there is a limit to what we can be expected to do. It says in Today’s Lists, “The House may sit late”. The Minister is shaking her head, so I hope she will be able to confirm that that is not the case. Too often this House has been asked to sit far later than is reasonable for good governance and good legislation.

If we are to start at 11 am on those three days, I would like an assurance from the noble Baroness that we will not sit past 10 o’clock. We do not oppose reasonable attempts by the Government to get their business through, but this macho style of government, whereby we have been here until 2 o’clock and 3 o’clock in the morning, and have regularly sat past midnight, is not the best way for us as a House to play our role as effective scrutineers of legislation in the appropriate way. I say that not in a party-political way, but in the interests of this House doing its job properly. Looking at the timings for the Report stage of the Elections Bill, we see that we have already been asked to get that through in three consecutive days. That, too, seems unreasonable to me.

All I would say to the noble Baroness is that although we do not oppose the Motion, we would like an assurance that the House will not be having regular late-night sittings to deal with what is really an overcrowded government timetable.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we cannot let this go through without a proper debate, and I strongly support my noble friend Lady Smith on the Front Bench. This is unprecedented. I spent 26 years in the other place and I have been here for more than 16 years now—and I have never seen this happen before. Can the Leader of the House tell us whether it has ever happened before? The Government have totally lost control of their business. Why? What is the reason? The Leader of the House may say that Covid did not help, and it certainly did not, but the real trouble is the confusion at the top of government. There is total confusion about the whole process of legislation, and there are more U-turns than in an Isle of Man TT; it is unbelievable how many there have been.

I also object because the Motion means that we will be meeting every Tuesday morning. Select Committees that we serve on meet on Tuesday mornings, and they will clash with this. It is making a total mockery of business. The Government Whips are always quoting the Companion at us. We saw that yesterday, or the other day, in a despicable way, which I hope that we will hear more about later in our business. We keep having the Companion quoted at us, yet it says that our business should be finished by 10 pm—whereas, as my noble friend Lady Smith said, we have been going right through to the early hours of the morning. Indeed, we went into the early hours yesterday.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 14th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, while the Leader of the House is dealing with business, will she confirm that, whichever Minister is speaking from the Dispatch Box in the House of Lords, they are answering on behalf of the whole Government, not one particular department? If a Member of this House asks a Question about, for example, non-disclosure agreements across Government, the Minister should answer right across Government, not just for his department.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this may be helpful to the noble Baroness when she is answering questions. My noble friend Lord Hain made a pertinent and important point. Does she accept that if we did not spend so much time on legislation for a no-deal Brexit—which has been ruled out by both Houses —we would have time for these other crucial issues?

EU Withdrawal

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I think that was more of a speech than an intervention. There is, however, a clear and distinct difference. If the Government think, like the noble Lord, that it is the same, why do they not support our suggestion? That would be very straightforward. Our proposal is different. The same is true of common external tariffs, which my noble friend Lady Hayter will deal with at the end of the debate. If the Government are so concerned that our suggestion is the same as their suggestion, they can easily support our proposals. I would welcome the noble Lord’s support today. What is being put forward guarantees, and gets, broad support in both Houses. The way to test that is to put it to a vote in the House of Commons, to see if it commands the support of MPs in finding a meaningful way forward.

My Motion today, therefore, is intended to assist the Government. It recalls that this House, by substantial majorities, emphatically ruled out a no-deal exit and called on the Government to act accordingly; and it reflects the mood of the elected House, where MPs have twice voted against the principle of crashing out without an agreement. It asks the Prime Minister to take all steps necessary to ensure that we do not leave without a deal on 29 March. This could include seeking an extension to the Article 50 negotiating period, which would allow time to develop the political declaration in vital areas that have not been given the attention they deserve, such as security co-operation, and, echoing the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, to pass the legislation that is required, or necessary—he will decide which word to use—to give effect to the final withdrawal agreement.

It would be helpful and in the interest of your Lordships’ House if the Minister could directly address the comments made by my noble friend Lord Foulkes and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, on the difference between legislation that is required by 29 March and that which is necessary. I am somewhat lost as to the distinction.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Could my noble friend ask the Minister to explain whether it is legislation necessary for a no-deal scenario or for a deal that has already been negotiated?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am sure that the Minister has heard that, but I think that the Government have had some difficulty of their own in differentiating between what legislation is for a deal and what is for no deal. I am always delighted to receive any further clarification from the Minister, which I am sure the whole House would welcome.

I think we all understand that an extension to Article 50 would require the approval of the EU 27. However, faced with a choice between a limited extension to Article 50 and a no-deal Brexit, there is only one sensible option for both sides. Can the Government now stop dragging their feet, commit to asking for more time and therefore rule out once and for all, so that everybody knows, the most disastrous of all outcomes—a no-deal Brexit? Doing so would reassure citizens that they would not lose their basic rights, as well as businesses and communities. The fear of crashing out with no deal and of the consequences of that is not Project Fear; it is project reality. The Minister has to accept and understand those realities.

The Motion in my name also asks the Government to facilitate a further meaningful vote for MPs by the end of February and, as required under the EU withdrawal Act, to table a take-note Motion in your Lordships’ House. How timely this issue has now become. MPs will have the opportunity to vote on various amendments to a non-binding Motion tomorrow evening. That Motion was promised a fortnight ago to allow Government Whips to pick off potential rebels. Over the weekend, in an attempt to prevent a rebellion this week, the Communities Secretary committed to an extra vote by 27 February, confirmed by the Prime Minister yesterday. However, the exact nature of that vote will depend on the progress, or otherwise, of the negotiations. It could again, as will be the case tomorrow should there be a vote, be completely non-binding.

The Prime Minister is obviously trying to run down the clock and force a decision between her deal and no deal. We had confirmation of that Hobson’s choice last night, courtesy of ITV. It is only by securing a binding vote that MPs can apply the brake before we career off the cliff edge.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

I am confused. I understood from what the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said that he was about to move the adjournment; that is what it sounded like. As my noble friend Lord Adonis said, either he or my noble friend Lady Smith should be in a position to move the adjournment of the House. It is entirely ridiculous that I am down to debate something that will no longer exist in a few hours’ time. I do not know how the Minister can do this.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I think the House would agree that we want to hear repeated in your Lordships’ House the Statement that the Prime Minister will make later, so I would not adjourn the House at this point. However, I urge the Government to reconsider their position. It is quite farcical for us to debate an issue that the House of Commons does not want to debate when its Members are the ones who have the meaningful vote.

English Votes for English Laws

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am not quite sure that that was an intervention on this speaker. The point I want to make to the noble Baroness is that, when a Motion is passed, it is the property of this body, of which she has the great opportunity to be Leader. I think she is probably not the only person in your Lordships’ House who aspires to that.

I want to go back to this. If there had been such a debate in the House of Commons, it would have given some comfort to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, that it had been properly considered by Members of the House of Commons, even if it had been rejected. It would have given us some confidence that it had been considered and that it was their considered judgment that they did not think it necessary. If it had been rejected, the House of Lords would have been able to say, “Right, what should we do? What processes should we go through to reassure ourselves that we can properly investigate and assess whether those measures have any impact on how we operate?”. That is all that was being asked. It would have been preferable to work together, for both Houses to examine this, rather than just one House—your Lordships’ House—looking at it alone. A debate in the other place on this issue prior to today would have helped inform our deliberations and discussions this evening. Very important constitutional issues are being raised. If any constitutional issue is rushed when it is not essential or necessary to do so, every opportunity should be taken to consider it properly.

I ask the noble Baroness a very specific question: has she at any time raised the request from the House of Lords for a Joint Committee directly with the Leader of the House of Commons or the Prime Minister, either in Cabinet or in a Cabinet committee? I appreciate that it is not always straightforward and easy. As the noble Baroness indicated, she has a responsibility as a Cabinet member, as a member of the Government and as the Leader of the Government in your Lordships’ House. However, she also, as she has been reminded by noble Lords, has a role as Leader of your Lordships’ House across the parties. I appreciate that it can be difficult; every Leader has to navigate that. However, the point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, that the majority in favour of a Joint Committee was 101.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It was 181.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Sorry, it was 181. I am glad to be corrected on that. When the noble Baroness commented, she said that “some” noble Lords would have preferred a Joint Committee. More than 300 Lords wanted a Joint Committee. It was a massive majority. I do not recall another majority like that. She should have heard those voices loud and clear. All she said at the Dispatch Box today was, “We in the Government don’t think it’s a good idea”. Actually, we in the House of Lords think that it is a very good idea.

The Government are suggesting a significant and unprecedented change to Standing Orders. As a House, we should not comment on the effect of the Government’s proposed changes on the other place other than on how it affects the Government as a whole, not on how it affects debates in the other place. I know that the noble Baroness used the word “clarity”, but there is a distinct lack of clarity as to how it affects us and in what way.

I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness said when she said that Chris Grayling, as Leader of the House of Commons, has invited our Constitution Committee to, in I think her exact words, “work with” the Commons Procedure Committee to monitor the working of the new Standing Orders in the first year. What does that mean? If he wants the committees to work together, what is so wrong about having a Joint Committee to look at these issues? If she is talking about looking at how the new Standing Orders work in the first year, can she tell the House which Bills the Government expect to be affected in the first year so that the committees will have an opportunity to evaluate how they will work?

I am disappointed to say this, but this whole saga is becoming symptomatic of the Government’s approach more generally. It is not good government to rush such matters through without proper consideration. I would like to see much greater analysis of the constitutional position, as well as examination of the consequences, intended and unintended, so that any potential problems and difficulties are addressed now. As I said to her before, I would much rather know early on whether there are potential difficulties and problems so that they can be dealt with and addressed, rather than, two or three years down the line, having a constitutional crisis that nobody has thought how to address.

In raising this issue, as in others, it seems that the Government see any opposition as a threat or challenge, not as an opportunity to improve legislation or to get things right. I am convinced that the only reason why your Lordships’ House raised this is because it was concerned that the Government should make good legislation and not get into a constitutional crisis over this. All Governments have the right to get their promised legislation through Parliament. That is an absolute. However, we have seen half-baked and half-formed legislation put before this House. I understand that that happens. I was a government Minister myself; we all know that these things happen. However, my serious concern, which is relevant to this debate and to the wider operations of your Lordships’ House, is that the Government either seek to ignore what we do or overreact to the House of Lords expressing a different view and offering advice or suggestions to the Government.

On Monday evening, we had the Government briefing journalists that if this House voted against the tax credits statutory instrument then the House would be “suspended”. That is nothing short of outrageous and appalling. Parliament does not belong to the Government and the Government cannot dictate how Parliament acts, just as the House of Lords does not and should not dictate to the Government how they act. We know our role—you could say we know our place—but we have a duty and a responsibility sometimes to get the Government to think again or look at something again. There needs to be a much greater understanding of our respective roles and respect for them.

Your Lordships’ House made a simple, moderate request to the House of Commons that a Joint Committee be established to examine any possible effects of the proposed changes they are considering in the other place on the way we operate our business. That does not stop the Government proceeding with the proposals or hinder them from going ahead with them. It merely asks that we work together, in a Joint Committee, to find a way through any potential problems. What could possibly be so dangerous or difficult about that?

I have raised this simple question to the Leader of the House before in a different way: can she tell us what action she has taken to advocate and express the views of this House on this issue of how English votes for English laws affects the House of Lords? Can she tell me what response we have had, in the absence of any response to our request to the Commons so far?

Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 25th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, there are six quite complex statutory instruments here and my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Grantchester spoke to them in Grand Committee. Questions have been raised on a number of complex issues and I know that the Minister is always unfailingly courteous in responding to questions. I would be grateful if he could undertake to write to noble Lords to address substantive questions that were not answered. I also thank him for his courtesy in arranging for his office to send me an e-mail at around 10 o’clock last night announcing that a Written Statement would be made today on the renewables obligations banding review, which is generally welcome but there are a number of questions. The noble Lord will know that he is very popular in this House—on our side as well—which makes it all the more surprising that he chose to make a Written Statement and not, given that he is at the Dispatch Box today anyway, an Oral Statement, which we would have welcomed. I hope this is not going to be part of a trail of sneaky Statements being released. We would welcome the opportunity to ask him questions on this at the Dispatch Box.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I noticed that the last three of these statutory instruments start with the words “Green Deal”. I wonder if I am being overoptimistic in anticipating that the Minister of State for Trade and Investment will come along and speak to one of them.