International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord West of Spithead

Friday 27th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, the amendment has the effect that in the event that the ODA’s expenditure is greater than 35% of spending on defence, the provisions of the Bill will not apply for the following year. Noble Lords will have worked out that that percentage corresponds to the UK’s international target of 0.7% of GNI and the UK’s NATO defence spending commitment of 2% of GDP. The provisions offered by the amendment seek to ensure that commitments on international aid do not hamper the United Kingdom’s military capabilities.

It must be obvious by now to everyone in this House and those who have been following our debate that the Bill is a piece of public relations. The arguments put forward by the Minister this morning and by the sponsor of the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, just a few moments ago are all about how it will give us international standing and enable us to take a lead. As my noble friend Lord Lawson pointed out, there is quite a lot of catching up to do by other member states on their commitment.

If we take that as a principle and take it as read, I should have thought that the promoters of the Bill would find the amendment extremely attractive. It takes exactly the same argument in respect of our commitment to development aid and applies it to our commitment in NATO. I believe that the first duty of any Government, above anything else, is the defence of its people and the security of the country. Therefore, that 2% commitment to NATO is to my mind far more important than the 0.7% commitment in the Bill.

It is striking, and it is important that we address this issue, that our ability to meet that NATO commitment depends on us having the money and making it a priority. The effect of the Bill is to give overseas aid priority over defence. That seems wholly wrong and inappropriate—particularly in the circumstances in which we find ourselves today.

I am looking forward to hearing from the noble Lord, Lord West, and others who are far more experienced and knowledgeable about defence expenditure than I. I had hoped that I would get a glimpse of the extent of the challenge from the speech which the Chief of the Defence Staff was going to make at Chatham House on Monday but, for reasons that are completely mysterious, apparently he was told by the Government that he could not make that speech. I find that quite extraordinary. Was that because, at a later stage, the Defence Secretary wishes to take credit for the situation that we are in, or was it because people are nervous at this sensitive time about what is happening to defence expenditure? There is an opportunity through the amendment to reassure those of us who believe that we absolutely must meet that NATO commitment. Of course, I can claim as a strong ally in that respect the Prime Minister himself, who has been telling other members of NATO how they must meet the 2% commitment for expenditure.

Having said that, I think that the only country which will spend 2% of GDP on defence in the fiscal year 2015 is Estonia. Again, there is a parallel in the position on overseas aid. I expect those Members—such as the noble Lord, Lord Davies—who have argued in this House with great passion that we need to take a lead, fly a flag and send a signal on overseas aid to support the amendment, because we need to send a signal on defence expenditure as well.

I just highlight a couple of issues which explain my very strong feeling that we should make that commitment. The United States is spending 3.8% of GDP on defence. Having scrapped the Nimrod programme, our Navy is very vulnerable to submarine attack. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord West, will be able to reassure me that that is correct. I read in a newspaper the other day that a periscope was spotted in the Irish Sea and the MoD had to ask our ally forces to come to its rescue with their own military marine patrol assets.

In the SDSR 2010, the number of battle tanks was reduced by 40%, as a Ukraine-type conflict was not anticipated to take place. In 2001—long after I had left government—we had 33 frigates and destroyers. It is now down to 19. The RAF has seven fast jet squadrons; it had 33 in 1990. It is true that we have taken on an order for the F-35 joint strike fighter, but that is a few years away. Despite the fantastic efforts being made in Fife, at present we do not have an aircraft carrier capability. The Harriers which operated from the aircraft carriers which were decommissioned have been sold to the US for spares, leaving us in the position where, in Libya, the Typhoons are having to fly much further and get refuelled in the air.

Let us consider troop numbers. Our Army will be down to the smallest since the Boer War at 82,000, cut from 110,000, the Navy service will be down by 5,000 to 30,000 and RAF personnel will be reduced by 5,000 to 33,000. General Richard Shirreff, who is Deputy NATO Supreme Allied Commander, says that,

“the sort of defence cuts we have seen … have really hollowed out the British armed forces and I think that people need to sit up and recognise that”,

and that it is,

“one hell of a risk”.

President Obama, who I know has a few supporters in this House, earlier this month called on the Prime Minister not to let the figure fall below 2%. I have reservations about hypothecation, which I have spent a great deal of time arguing about. However, if we are to have hypothecation for overseas aid and if that is because the Government want to take an international lead and believe that we have a moral duty to do so, we need to have hypothecation for the commitments that we have made in respect of our defence. The highest duty of government is to defend our people. I beg to move.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I have put my name to this amendment and I support it. I should add that the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, has also put his name to the amendment but has asked me to say that he unavoidably cannot attend today, and to mention that he had raised this very issue in Questions earlier in the week.

Defence and security of the nation, as has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, are the first responsibility of any Government. Indeed, the Prime Minister has said so, as did the Prime Minister before him and the Prime Minister before him. But in 2015-16, the next financial year, defence spending is on track to fall to 1.88% of our GDP. This is the lowest percentage of our GDP in 25 years, yet we are in a highly dangerous and chaotic world.

In that highly dangerous and chaotic world, defence spending has been reduced by 8% since 2010 through a lot of the measures that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned. A recent study by the International Institute for Strategic Studies shows that the United Kingdom’s military capability—our capability to do things—has reduced by more than 20% since 2010. That is more than a fifth; which is an incredible reduction in our military capability. We are standing into danger—I apologise for using a nautical term but that is what you say when you are about to go on to the rocks—and I think we should be afraid. Our forces have not just been cut to the bone; they have been cut into the bone. Our military now is unable to do what the people of our great nation expect it to be able to do. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned a submarine to the west of the UK. Our inability to prosecute that properly is a dreadful indictment of what has happened to our forces.

If our defence forces are incapable of defending our nation, its people and its interests worldwide then to be quite honest welfare, health, education and foreign aid are as naught. They become irrelevant if we cannot do those other things and, ironically, in many parts of the world where DfID is working it can do so only courtesy of the military. As has been said, the Government made it very clear at the NATO summit in Wales that the European nations of NATO should spend a minimum of 2% of their GDP on defence because of the threats that there were, which are now seen rising within the European theatre, let alone worldwide. Indeed, the Secretary of State for Defence has referred to a “real and present danger”.

One would like to think that the Government believe that the UK should do the same as it has told all these other countries to do, yet almost every statement and action by this Government since the NATO summit seems to indicate that the Chancellor wishes to renege on that promise. I can of course understand the problem that he has. As a result of multiple ring-fencing of budgets, his room for manoeuvre over the allocation of sufficient funding to departments is seriously curtailed, right across government. Indeed, ring-fencing has a lot of unintended consequences and is not necessarily a clever thing to do.

For this reason, if we are going to ring-fence I believe that it makes absolute sense to link the ODA to the defence budget so that as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, says, we can show that defence is more important —because without the defence, we cannot have an aid budget. This amendment would assist the Government in meeting their promise of spending 2% of GDP on defence. For that reason, it is a very sensible and proportionate amendment, which would enhance the security of our nation and therefore enable us to continue to provide aid into the future.

Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord West of Spithead

Friday 18th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I declare an interest, as my wife’s family has suffered from metal thieves taking memorial plaques from the side of a church in Dewsbury. I feel strongly about this: I do not think there are many people in this House who feel as strongly as I do about deregulation, but it seems quite extraordinary that we have Bills coming before this House—mainly originating from European directives—where there is no possibility of having a sunset clause and where the Government are unable to proceed. This looks like a bit of window dressing. We should listen very carefully to the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, about the risk and the delay which will arise.

I hope my noble friend will tell us whether, if this amendment were not passed, the Government would continue to support this Bill with enthusiasm. It seems to be an unnecessary risk and an unnecessary delay to send it back to the House of Commons for further consideration. I understand the long-standing difficulties there are with Private Members’ Bills in the other place. My late colleague, Eric Forth, used to cause considerable irritation by what he regarded as a principled stand on this matter. However, this is a Bill which, as several speakers have said, is urgently needed. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Browning for the diligent way in which she has carried us forward. At this very late stage, I am sorry that the Government are proposing to put a spanner in the works, which will delay much needed legislation.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Faulkner and what has just been said by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I declare an interest as I am involved with war memorials around the United Kingdom. Metal theft has meant disaster for those memorials, and it has caused immense damage, sadness and pain to a number of people.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, suggests that this amendment is the price that we might have to pay for the Government to agree to this legislation, and that it would speed things up. Surely it will slow things down and surely things would happen much faster if we did not have this amendment.

House of Lords Reform

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 23rd April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

May I ask my noble friend a question, although it may be a naive question? Given that we had a manifesto commitment to seek a consensus on House of Lords reform and given that the Joint Committee is split completely down the middle, is that not the end of the matter?

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, on St George’s day, and falling back on the line that I am very much a simple sailor, I am confused by the fact that half the committee effectively has an alternative view. I agree with some of the statements by other noble Lords that it seems to make a nonsense of this process. I am also very concerned, as I look in a simple way at next week, that there seems to be very little time in which to have a sensible debate about this issue.