International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill
Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Lawson of Blaby(9 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Lawson of Blaby
It is certainly true that remittances are important, but I was including them in private capital flows, because remittances are one example of them. There is also a great deal of business investment in these countries. That is what is making a difference. There are other things, too, such as better governance. The so-called failed states, which are riddled with corruption, are a real problem, as noble Lords on both sides of the House are well aware—as DfID is well aware and as the evidence that we had on the committee pointed out very clearly. However, the problem of corruption is not going to be solved by dishing out 0.7% of GNI on overseas aid.
Because this is so absurd, I welcome, in general, Clause 2, to which this amendment refers. The clause makes it quite clear that this is not really a serious commitment at all, because all that the Government have to do, if the 0.7% target is not reached in any year, is to lay a Statement before Parliament saying why it has not been reached. This is what my amendment relates to. The clause gives three reasons that the Government can give in telling Parliament why the 0.7% has not been attained, which are,
“economic circumstances … fiscal circumstances and … circumstances arising outside the United Kingdom”.
Noble Lords might think that is pretty comprehensive, but it is not completely comprehensive, which is why I have added one further condition—there are two further conditions, but one in particular belongs to this set—which has been alluded to, very rightly, in some earlier contributions today. It refers to,
“circumstances where meeting the 0.7% target would lead to excessive spending towards the end of a calendar year”.
That is separate from overall economic circumstances, fiscal circumstances or things happening overseas that have affected the picture.
We know that this is a problem. The NAO was extremely critical of it only last year. If you have to shovel stuff quickly out of the door, it will not have the same value-for-money scrutiny that DfID tries to ensure throughout the year on everything it does. I commend DfID for its attempts to get value for money so far as that is possible in this area. It is far better than any other national aid agency in doing that. It is certainly better than the multinational organisations—the United Nations or the European Union. We discovered that in the evidence we took. But of course the incentive will be to shovel it out to, say, the United Nations in order to hit the target. Therefore, this should be as good and real a reason as the other reasons that are listed in the Bill—economic, fiscal and overseas events—why the Minister should go to Parliament and say, “That is why we have not achieved the target, because to do so would have meant shovelling a large amount out at the end of the year without adequate scrutiny”.
The other condition that I am asking the House to accept is,
“circumstances where anything outlined in paragraphs (a) to (d) is likely to persist”:
that is, economic, fiscal, overseas, and (d), which is my suggestion that it would require too much money to be shoved out quickly to meet the end-year target. This really concerns Clause 2(4), where the Secretary of State also has to inform Parliament of what steps are going to be taken to ensure that the target will be met in the subsequent year. This is even more absurd—we are even more in Alice in Wonderland territory. How on earth can the Secretary of State for Industrial Development—and I have a high regard for the present incumbent, my right honourable friend Justine Greening— ensure that,
“circumstances arising outside the United Kingdom”,
are not going to continue to make the achievement of the target difficult? It is a complete absurdity. Therefore, to try to minimise the absurdity slightly I have suggested this amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment, which I think is an important one, particularly in the light of the material that has been produced by the National Audit Office and others showing that in the last eight weeks of 2013, while most people were thinking about Santa Claus, the department spent £1 billion of its budget, and 40% of its budget was spent in the last two months of the year. That indicates what we used to have blighting local government, where suddenly all the roads were being dug up and the parks were being spruced up in the last few weeks of March because the local authority had to spend the budget. We all know that that does not result in value for money. I am entirely persuaded that there may have been examples in the last two months of 2013 that did represent value for money, but that is not the point that is being made. My noble friend’s amendment is very important for that reason.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill
Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Lawson of Blaby(9 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
On the point of creating impressions, my noble friend might be interested to know that the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, has just tweeted:
“Lord Forsyth clearly enjoys fillibustering and denying with weasel words the needs of the poorest”.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
That is disgraceful. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, will want to withdraw his tweet. I am not sure how you “untweet” or “detweet”, but I am sure he will wish to do so. I am afraid I am not sufficiently technologically proficient to advise him on this matter, but I am sure he knows all about it.
Turning now to the remarks of the Minister, I wish to deal with three points in particular. First, she made a great defence of her department, DfID. I have to say that she has half a point here. If one looks at the various aid agencies around the world, DfID is probably one of the best. However, part of the problem is that a large proportion of British overseas aid is handled not by DfID but by multinational institutions, in particular the United Nations and the European Union—and all the evidence we have indicates that neither of those institutions has anything like the robust high standards to which DfID aspires. That is a major problem, and of course the more ODA is increased, the greater the problem becomes.
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill
Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Lawson of Blaby(9 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Lawson of Blaby
It is our job to do our duty. That argument could have been used by the noble Lord and the noble Lord’s office opposite when the European Union referendum Bill came to this place. I did not hear any of them saying that we should accept it because it had gone through by a large majority in the other place. Therefore that disposes of the noble Lord’s objection.
I will say a little more about what this amendment is about. Earlier amendments have been designed to create an area of flexibility which is necessary for good government and for the proper control of public expenditure and conduct of public expenditure, and as I was about to say before I was interrupted, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, who has great expertise in these matters, was very strong on the need for flexibility. This has nothing to do with aid in particular but is necessary for public expenditure overall.
This amendment points to particular forms of flexibility. For example, paragraphs (a) and (b) of this proposed new clause relate spending on ODA to the amount of spending on health and education respectively. People in this country feel very keenly about spending on health, and the party opposite speaks almost of nothing else at present. The people of this country feel very keenly about spending on education. There needs to be some comparison of priorities—some connection between the spending on ODA and on other departments. Here we single out health and education, but of course the question of spending on defence was already raised earlier in our debate. There is a 2% NATO target, which of course is not legally binding but is an aspiration; this goes much further. At a time when there is great danger to this country and the world has become a much more dangerous place, that also should be compared with it. However, I will confine myself to spending on health and on education.
There are two other paragraphs in the proposed new clause. The third paragraph says that if the,
“target could only be met by increasing spending on ODA in any one year by more than 5% in real terms … the target should be set aside”.
It is a massive amount, and it is almost certain that we would not get value for money if there were a huge increase in spending in any one year. That would get the Secretary of State and the Government of the day off the hook.
The fourth paragraph to give the Government the flexibility to get off the hook is if there is a budget deficit of above,
“5% of gross domestic product”.
We all know that the budget deficit is too high. All parties are agreed that it has to come down. If, for whatever reason, it is not coming down satisfactorily, that is a serious business, and it should be a reason why in that particular year the Government are not on the hook of the 0.7% aid target.
On the status of the target, questions were put which were not really answered by the Minister, nor by my noble friend behind me who proposed the Bill in this place to questions asked by my noble friend Lord Forsyth about the precise nature of the legally binding commitment. Legally binding sounds, to me, like legally binding. It sounds similar to the Climate Change Act, where there are legally binding targets for the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions. Apparently, it is legally binding—and, no doubt, my noble friends Lady Northover and Lord Purvis will answer specifically on this point. When my noble friend Lord Forsyth raised it, it was not adequately answered, but scrutiny of the Bill seems to make it the case that it is not really legally binding at all. All the Government are bound to do is to lay a report to Parliament saying why the target has been missed.
I hope that this proposed new clause will be accepted, as it is very reasonable and designed to be helpful. I hope, in addition to that, the question of the nature of whether the legislation is legally binding can be clarified. I beg to move.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I support my noble friend in respect of this amendment. Our GDP is forecast to increase by more than 3%, which will mean that more than £400 million extra will have to be spent on overseas aid next year to meet the target. That is at the same time as the Chancellor saying that we are in an age of austerity. Given what the Chancellor said in his Autumn Statement and given the OBR’s projections, government spending as a proportion of GDP—or gross national income, if you prefer that terminology—will have to come down. So, as the OBR has highlighted, even health spending will come down as a proportion of GDP. If the Bill goes through unamended, the percentage of government spending that goes on overseas aid will have to keep rising rather than remain constant. Is that the intention—that the spending on overseas development aid not only should be ring-fenced and given special status but should always rise as a proportion of overall government spending? I believe that my noble friend’s amendment addresses that particular anomaly, and I look forward to hearing from the sponsor of this Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, as to whether that is indeed his intention.
I do not want to detain the House. I just say to the Front Benches that I think that it is absolutely outrageous that the business was changed and that we are dealing with these very important matters at 4 pm on a Friday afternoon, particularly since this is apparently a Private Member’s Bill. I look forward to citing these precedents in future regarding other Private Members’ Bills. If the Government think that this will in some way prevent the House from having an opportunity for all Members to be here to debate these matters, they have another thing coming. There is another stage, Report, when I hope we will be able to discuss these matters more fully. On that basis, I leave it at that in respect of this amendment.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
I was puzzled when my noble friend said she does not believe that there should be a particular organisation responsible for this. The Bill as originally published specifically set out an independent organisation to do this job. That is very important. When the amendment to remove that was discussed in the other place, at no time did my noble friend’s counterpart there say that the reason it was being removed was because they did not want just one body doing it. They said they did not want to set up an additional body. What we suggest is not an additional body but an existing one. Clearly the job needs to be done and it needs to be specified in the Bill how it is done.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Could the noble Baroness help me in respect of this amendment? Clause 5 says:
“The Secretary of State must make arrangements for the independent evaluation of the extent to which ODA provided by the United Kingdom represents value for money in relation to the purposes for which it is provided”.
My noble friend thinks—and I agree—that that is somewhat inadequate. Then, subsection (2) says:
“The Secretary of State must include in each annual report a statement as to how he or she has complied with the duty under subsection (1)”.
I presume that means subsection (1) of this clause, which says that she must make arrangements for the independent evaluation. Is the idea that the arrangements for the independent evaluation are subject to some kind of annual review? Surely the arrangements for independent evaluation should mean the creation of some kind of authoritative body to carry it out. The fact that Clause 5(2) says that you must have an annual report on this suggests that we will never get there.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I support my noble friend and very much agree with his remarks in respect of the conduct of the business today. The only thing in his excellent remarks on which I disagree with him is that he kept referring to a legally enforceable target. On my reading of the Bill, there is no legally enforceable target; there is a requirement for the department to try to spend exactly 0.7% of GDP in any one year, and a failure to do so simply requires it to produce yet another report to Parliament explaining why it has failed to do so. It is very important that we are clear on that because in the outside world it is being sold as something else, and the damage that is being done is the implementation of the 0.7% target.
The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, suggested that my noble friend go back and read the reports but that is not the point. This amendment is about seeking to ensure that we are aware of the influence of the 0.7% target on the quality and oversight of, and the opportunities for corruption from, UK aid. That is a really important point. The system is being changed. Until now, the department has had a budget. Part of the overseas development budget has been with other departments, including the Foreign Office—some of it might be associated with climate change, which I find a great mystery—and these departments have been able to spend on their programmes accordingly. The fact that between them all they now have to reach the target of 0.7% within a calendar year, as opposed to a financial year, will create and—the evidence is quite clear—has already created substantial problems.
Therefore, it is very important that we look at the impact of the inclusion of this target on the quality and effectiveness of the ODA programme and, similarly, at the degree to which DfID has been able to provide oversight of the other departments. If, as we discussed earlier, the effect of the target is that more has to be given to other organisations over which it has no control and from which there is no accountability, that will have an impact on proposed new paragraph (b) in the amendment, which concerns,
“the Department for International Development’s oversight of UK Overseas Development Programmes”.
I do not want to go over the same arguments at this hour but, as my noble friend Lord Lawson pointed out, there have recently been some quite disturbing reports from the NAO suggesting that money for programmes is being used by criminal elements on an international scale.
I think that the amendment is very sensible. If the Minister or the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, feel unable to accept it, we may have to return to this matter in rather more detail on Report because the impact of the department having a target of 0.7% will, in my view, have a seriously deleterious effect on the effectiveness of the overseas aid programme, and that needs to be monitored.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, the hour is late so I shall be brief. My noble friend Lord Purvis made a point about this being agreed by all three political parties. That is true. That makes me worry. In my long experience, in most cases—not all, but most—when all three parties agree on something, they are wrong. There is a very good reason why that should be so. It means that the issue has not been properly examined. If there is not a proper political argument back and forth, there is not adequate examination. So I am afraid that the statement he made does not reassure me in the slightest.
As for the amendment before us, although my noble friend Lord Howell said that he disagreed with my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I think there was no conflict; I certainly agree with both of them. As far as my noble friend Lord Forsyth is concerned, I believe that we need to look at this new, greatly expanded aid programme and how it is working out. One of the problems, which has been alluded to briefly, is that the focus of aid is changing and more and more is going to fragile states and to what are often described as failed states. In those states the amount of corruption is absolutely appalling and there is nothing that DfID can do to eliminate that corruption, although it would like to. So one of the things that we will need to examine if there is a sunset clause and we want to renew this is whether we have, not deliberately, produced a machine that has significantly increased the amount of corruption, which is one of the great evils in these countries and, indeed, is one of the great reasons why they cannot lift their people out of poverty in the way that, happily, so many countries in the emerging world have done over the past few years. But there are others that have not, and that is where we are focusing our aid.
One of the most important things is the separation of economic and political power. This is fundamental to development. If people want to enrich themselves they go into the economic sphere; or they go, for different motives, into public service and the political sphere. If you do not have this separation and people go into politics in order to enrich themselves, which happens in a large number of countries, that is where it is so damaging and where aid will not help. That is why it needs to be reviewed at the end of five years.
Another valid point made by my noble friend Lord Forsyth is that the Minister said explicitly that one of the main purposes of the Bill was to set an example to the rest of the world. Fine. Actually, I do not think that is fine; it is not a proper reason for legislation. But leaving that aside, if that is the reason, after five years we can see whether the United States, Germany, France and Italy have followed suit. I am willing to have a modest wager with the Minister that in five years’ time—if I am still alive in five years’ time, which is unlikely—they will not have followed suit. Our efforts to get other countries to follow our example will prove to have failed, and that is another reason why Parliament should have positively to re-enact this legislation, if it wants to do so.
The final and important point made by my noble friend Lord Howell is that the world has changed—a point that I also made in an earlier amendment—and that there are better ways of trying to creating a better world than dishing out development aid. If that is so and we find that other countries are doing a better job by other means—we do not have time to discuss them now, but my noble friend has sketched them—that is another reason why Parliament should be required to take stock at the end of five years rather than ploughing on with this.
This is not chickenfeed: we are already spending well over £11 billion a year on aid. As a result of this Bill, this amount is scheduled to go on rising inexorably, year in, year out, if the economy is growing. We all hope that the economy will grow—even my noble friend the Minister wishes to see the economy grow—and, if it does, this will get bigger and bigger, year in, year out. However, if this is not the best way to achieve a better world in which there is less poverty and more economic development, we certainly do not want to continue with it.
If this Bill becomes an Act, its first five years will be a test bed. We want a provision that Parliament is obliged to address this issue anew at the end of five years. I strongly support my noble friend’s amendment.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, of course, if Labour wins the next general election there will be a massive cut in the overseas aid budget because our GDP will fall. I do not know if that is the intention behind the Bill, but it is a curious way of deciding priorities.
I am not going to rehearse the arguments and I am most grateful to my noble friends for their support. I thought, just for a nanosecond, that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, was going to accept the amendment when he said that by the end of the next Parliament there will be such a consensus across the political parties that no one would dare to repeal this Bill. I thought he would say, “I have the confidence to accept the amendment because the position will be that crowds will be cheering in the streets at the prospect of this legislation being renewed”, based on the fantastic experience that the noble Lord predicts. I have to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, as she says, “Hear, hear”, that she does not seem to have the courage of her convictions. But I am not going to be tempted into making party-political points. If noble Lords who support the Bill believe that it is going to be so successful, then the very point made by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in his remarks would make them open to accepting this amendment.
I sense that people have probably had enough of the Bill for today, and we look forward to returning to it on Report, hopefully after we have had a long rest and everyone has had an opportunity to read all the reports which have been referred to. They provide overwhelming evidence that the Bill should go forward, but that it is in need of amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.