European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Elystan-Morgan

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

The contributions already made make it perfectly clear how fragile and in many respects how insubstantial is the basis of devolution as we know it. The sovereign Parliament of Westminster has created a sub-Parliament in respect of Scotland and Wales. The sovereign authority that created that Parliament can undo that Parliament any day that it wishes to do so. If it did so I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would agree with me that it would be the best recruiting sergeant that Plaid Cymru ever had. Be that as it may, the power is there to do exactly that. It is, of course, utterly understandable that nobody expects that power to be used. In fact, in Clause 1 of both the Scotland Act and the Wales Act of last year there is written in what is intended to guarantee the permanence of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. In terms of law, it has no restriction whatever; it is purely cosmetic but well intentioned. I do not think that, in so far as any legal interpretation is concerned, there is a different view held, but I will be corrected on that point.

Nevertheless, those two Parliaments exist at the mercy, as it were, of this sovereign Parliament. I do not know whether one can change the situation, because the concept of sovereignty means that it can be withdrawn at any time. Unless, of course, one has some self-abnegative discipline—for example, to say that there is a convention. In the Miller case that came before the Supreme Court some time ago, the argument was raised that there was a basic authority that related to each of the Parliaments. No, said the Supreme Court, it is a convention. However, nobody had defined a convention. If Parliament went out of its way to define a convention and said, “In this context a convention means a, b, c and d”, that might get us somewhere. It is a suggestion.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord may recall that during the passage of the last Scotland Act there was great debate on Clause 2 about whether the convention of seeking legislative consent could be enshrined in law. We ended up with a rather unsatisfactory clause that said that this Parliament,

“will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters”.

As some of us argued at the time, what on earth does “normally” mean? It came from trying to enshrine the convention in statute. On the subject of people respecting conventions, the noble Lord may not be aware that the Scottish Parliament wishes to charge on with its own legislation on the basis that there is no legislative consent Motion agreed to this legislation, despite the fact that the Presiding Officer has declared that legislation illegal. If we are to have a Parliament acting illegally, led by nationalists who wish to break up the United Kingdom, I think that, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has suggested, we should go cannily.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

One is greatly tempted to look at this situation beyond the Tweed, as it were—but I will abjure that temptation now and, I hope, for ever. I have scars on my back already in relation to what has happened in Wales over the last few decades.

I believe that in relation to these situations, one can draw a distinction between a convention and something else. A convention can be defined by Parliament in such a way as to have a semi-sovereign authority. That is my point. It is not the same thing as saying that it is regarded as the ordinary way of doing things—that is a totally different argument. In that way, it seems that one might achieve a reasonable and honourable settlement.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Elystan-Morgan

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Before my noble and learned friend sits down, it is very important that we clear this up. Of course, the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, is absolutely right. The problem here is that the Government cannot do that because the Liberals are refusing to allow government time. So it is the case that if the Bill is amended, it will be lost.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, the issue immediately before the House is very direct and very simple. It is a choice between the version of wording for the referendum preferred by the Electoral Commission or the one that is contained in the draft. Even if the Electoral Commission had in no way opined on this matter, I would urge the House to accept the version that is in the amendment, for two reasons.

First, it is founded on a factual matrix; in other words, the fact of our current membership of the European Union. Secondly, it shows clearly and concisely what the effect of a negative vote would be. Nothing could be fairer and I suspect that almost any intelligent schoolboy or schoolgirl in this land would say, “Yes, that version is preferable in so far as it is more likely to lead to a clear, understandable and final result in this matter”.

In addition, of course, there is the question of parentage. It comes from the Electoral Commission. It therefore has a quasi-judicial status—I appreciate that one is extending that somewhat but it is a neutral status of high standing. That, I think, makes it all the more obvious that not only would justice be done but would be manifestly seen to be done.

Turning for a moment to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, there is no such animal in the constitutional field as an unamendable Bill so far as this House is concerned. There can be no question at all about that. The argument that is put forward is this: were the House of Lords to intervene, it would do so at its peril. Some persons use that in a blackmailing way—I absolve completely the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, from such an argument, but certain persons put it forward in terrorem. Whether it be in terrorem or as a completely neutral commentary on the situation, of the two circumstances, I would rather belong to a House that risks its own end by doing that which is right and proper than to run away from what is a clear responsibility and right in this matter.

Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Elystan-Morgan

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister will agree that the letter of the law has been absolutely clear for three centuries—any money element can give rise to a situation where privilege can be successfully claimed. However, it is not entirely clear, from looking at Erskine May, whether it turns on some discretion vested in the Speaker or in interpretation, although it may very well be that the same result is achieved in the end. One either has a liberal view of the situation or a much narrower one. Looking at it legalistically, there is a world of difference between a range of interpretation and a range of discretion. Might I respectfully suggest that this can be settled only by discussion at the highest level and in the most statesmanlike way with the other place; otherwise, a great deal of the function of this House as a revising Chamber will be totally emasculated?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, may I just add to that point made by the noble Lord? I respectfully suggest to my noble friend the Leader of the House that he has a duty to the House as a whole, as well as to the Government’s interests. There have been a series of events that give the impression that the other place, which increasingly sends legislation up here that is not properly considered and debated, is treating this place with some contempt, not least of which is the suggestion that the Parliament Act might be used in respect of the reform of this place. I suggest to my noble friend that the time may have come for him to assert his authority as Leader of the House and have a frank chat with some of his colleagues.