Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Baroness Northover

3rd reading & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 28th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House at this stage in the Bill, especially following that excellent speech by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I do not wish to repeat many of the arguments that have been put at an earlier stage in the Bill and the information which has been made available to the House about the atrocities which are happening in China today—not just among the Uighur people. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, has set out in great detail the arguments which I would have thought would persuade any Government of the virtues of this amendment.

I join him in paying tribute to my noble friend the Minister, who has worked hard to find a way through this. I appreciate that collective responsibility means that it is not always possible to deliver what Ministers might wish to achieve. However, following on from the remarks the noble Lord made about the debate on Tuesday next week on the all-party amendment on genocide, I think it is absolutely outrageous that those of us who wish to speak in that debate are unable to do so unless we appear in person at the House.

I have just received a letter from the Clerk of the Parliaments advising me that it is very undesirable for Members to come to the House, as indeed it is from a wider social point of view. At the beginning of each sitting, the Chair has indicated that all Members will be treated equally. It seems that the procedures that operate under ping-pong are preventing Members of the House carrying out their duties while being socially responsible and while following the advice from Public Health England and Scotland. I hope very much that this can be looked at before next Tuesday, so that we are all able to carry out our duties to the House of Commons and meet our responsibilities to our fellow citizens.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, seemed to indicate that he would not press this amendment to a Division. Had he done so, I would have happily supported him, because I believe that it is a sensible amendment for the reasons put forward in earlier stages of the Bill. However, as I have said, I will not detain the House other than to indicate my support for the noble Lord and my admiration for the enormous energy that he has put into defending human rights and championing the cause of those people in China who, unbelievably, are experiencing what we have always been told after the events in Germany during the 1930s and 1940s would never be allowed to happen again.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I too start by paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his commitment and persistence. He is so often the conscience of this House on human rights abuses globally, and once more he has made a very powerful speech.

How can anyone who watched the ceremony to mark Holocaust Memorial Day, which was broadcast last night, not be deeply moved. It made plain how propaganda led to persecution and, step by step, to the appalling slaughter of the Jews and others in the Holocaust. It has been said, “Never again”, and international measures were put in place to try to counter such atrocities and bring people to account, yet there have been genocides in Cambodia, Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, Myanmar and so on. As the Holocaust memorial event also mentioned, we are now hearing appalling accounts coming out of China, especially in relation to the Uighurs, including of forced organ harvesting, the sterilisation of women and the re-education camps. We hear credible reports, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, mentioned, of slave labour. We know that, in Germany, the chemical and pharmaceutical industries, in which the country had an international lead, drew on such slave labour, as did others.

We have seen worrying signs in the UK and across Europe more generally, and especially whipped up recently in the United States, of propaganda and discrimination being exploited by those seeking power. It has been an object lesson in how these things can happen, step by step, and how constant vigilance is always required. We knew it then, and we know it now, so the mover of the amendment and those speaking to it are right that, even here, in this limited Bill covering a specific area, the test should be applied as to whether an operator could be using infrastructure to breach human rights.

I am glad to hear of the efforts being made by the Minister to seek to address this, as the Government also did in the Medicines and Medical Devices Bill, and there managed, working with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and others, to bring forward a relevant amendment. In her letter to us, the noble Baroness cites the actions of the Foreign Secretary in relation to Xinjiang. We are waiting to see the results of this translated into targeted sanctions, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, mentioned, and the persuasion of other countries, starting with the EU, to follow suit. Sanctions are most effective if they are undertaken collectively.

We will shortly be considering the National Security and Investment Bill, and I am sure that these issues will be raised again. Prior to that, we have the Trade Bill. Surely if the Government are committed to this issue, when we get to that Bill, it is obvious that the Government must accept the amendment on genocide. How could we possibly agree to trade with a country that is committing genocide?

I thank the Government for their engagement, including that of the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, with Sir Geoffrey Nice, the chair of the China Tribunal, on forced organ harvesting, and I look forward to further engagement. However, that engagement needs to turn into specific action. We cannot turn a blind eye, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, will make sure that we do not.

International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Baroness Northover

Friday 27th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I will make a brief point in response to the point that was made, and the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies. It would appear that some noble Lords are under a misapprehension about what the Bill does. All it does is require the Secretary of State to have a target of 0.7%, and where under Clause 2 he or she has established that target, they have to make a statement to Parliament if they have not met the target. Clause 2(3) says that a statement made,

“must explain why the 0.7% target has not been met in the report year and, if relevant, refer to the effect of one or more of the following”,

which are, in paragraphs (a) to (c),

“economic circumstances and, in particular, any substantial change in gross national income … fiscal circumstances and, in particular, the likely impact of meeting the target on taxation, public spending and public borrowing … circumstances arising outside the United Kingdom”.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, thinks that that is a flag, but it is more of a dish-cloth. All it does is to say, “This target is desirable, but if it’s not met, you’ve got to give a statement to Parliament, and these are the range of reasons”.

Circumstances outside the United Kingdom could be anything whatever. There could be a crisis in euroland or a whole range of things such as difficulties in Ukraine. The Bill does not impose an absolute statutory duty to spend 0.7%, as has been suggested by some noble Lords; it simply imposes a duty to tell Parliament if this has not been done and to give a reason for that. What it does do, however, is to mess up the procedures by which our country has accountability for public expenditure and to confuse the fiscal year with the financial year, and it does so because it is a flag-waving Bill in terms of meeting an international target. Those of us in this House who are seriously concerned about getting money to poor people in poor countries, and ensuring that that money is spent wisely, ought to support this amendment. Far from weakening the Bill, it would strengthen it as it would bring the Treasury into the process from day one and avoid the situation whereby the Secretary of State can say, “I didn’t meet the target because the economy wasn’t right and the Treasury wasn’t too happy”. This amendment would strengthen the Bill and preserve the integrity of our financial control.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for International Development (Baroness Northover) (LD)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for bringing this amendment before us and welcome the level of attendance in the Chamber.

The noble Lords who have tabled this amendment have a formidable track record in the Civil Service and in government, not least in the Treasury, as the House will recognise, and are supported by very experienced voices. I value enormously their input and insights. It is extremely important that we take what they say very seriously. Nevertheless, I am afraid that, on behalf of the Government, I must resist this amendment. Perhaps I can explain why.

The Bill places a duty on the Secretary of State for International Development to meet the 0.7% GNI ODA target in 2015 and each subsequent year, and to lay a statement before Parliament in the event of it not being met. This proposed amendment in effect places the decision, though not the responsibility, to meet the target first and foremost with the Treasury at each spending round. It therefore provides the possibility for the Treasury to decide that 0.7% is no longer a priority, and for budgets to be accordingly adjusted downwards.

Of course, I am certain that the Treasury will fully scrutinise what DfID does, as, I assure the noble Lord, it does now. The department will, of course, still be subject to scrutiny through the spending review process in terms of how it spends the money. The department is scrutinised not only by the Treasury through the spending review process, as are all departments, but also through the Treasury approval of individual programmes within an agreed regime of delegated authority. I assure noble Lords that this Bill does not affect the role of the Treasury. What it does is send a clear message from this Parliament of its expectations in regard to the aid programme. As the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, put it, it would be wrong to interpose the Treasury into this arrangement through writing it into legislation. The Treasury’s role remains unchanged. Therefore, the proposed amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, is not needed either because of the scrutiny I mentioned, and it too should be resisted, if it were put.

The allocation of public expenditure is already a primary Treasury function. The Treasury’s role in the spending review is to ensure that the Government’s limited resources are allocated in the best way possible to DfID and other government departments to deliver government objectives, including enabling the UK to meet the 0.7% target—a commitment which this Parliament has debated and on which it has come to a settled view in the other place, and may yet in this place.

One of the challenges of the ODA level has been its huge variation, dropping sometimes to around 0.2%, and at other times moving up to 0.5% and now to 0.7%. That is not the pattern for other departments. Stability and long-term commitment are required. As the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, pointed out, this Bill enables us to move beyond the quantity to the quality of aid. We would not reach 0.7% if we did not already have formal Treasury approval in the spending round. This amendment proposes an additional legislative requirement to do what the Government are already required to do: tell Parliament how they propose to allocate public expenditure.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, and other noble Lords expressed concerns that legislation of this nature relieves departments of having to make a case for expenditure. The noble Lord was particularly concerned about the impact that the commitment to 0.7% would have on value for money, as he said in Committee. I reassure him that the commitment to 0.7% is in fact having the opposite effect to that which he fears. It has resulted in a great increase in scrutiny, not a reduction. The Government have stepped up scrutiny and value for money. We have set up the Independent Commission for Aid Impact, which enables strong parliamentary oversight. All DfID spend is subject to a rigorous value for money assessment. A recent review by the OECD’s Development Assistance Committee said that the scaling up of the UK’s aid budget was planned in a way to ensure that the extra money was well spent and had the greatest possible impact. We are now ranked second in the world in transparency on aid finance.

In conclusion, I am afraid we do not feel that this proposed amendment is in the spirit of the Bill. The Bill allows Parliament to send a clear message to the Government about the spending expected on ODA from year to year. Most accept that the need is there. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and others for their recognition of that. Most accept that we can be very effective in helping to meet that need, for which I thank them. One day, of course, we all hope that this assistance will not be needed, but we are still very far from that place. Of course, as my noble friend Lord Howell said, we also harness many other means to assist development, including working with very fragile states such as Somalia and Syria.

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[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I entirely understand and appreciate the sentiments behind these amendments as they seek to introduce greater flexibility through turning the target into a five-year one rather than an annual one. However, in practice, the greater flexibility that noble Lords are seeking cannot be achieved in this way and I cannot support the amendment.

First, as the House is aware, the 0.7% target is an internationally agreed one, monitored by the OECD Development Assistance Committee. Through a consensus of its 29 member countries, the DAC has long monitored levels of ODA spend—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that the international target is 0.7% but that it is not 0.7% in any one year?

[Baroness Northover]

I can inform my noble friend that the DAC measures this on an annual basis. That is why the UK needs to report its ODA spend to the OECD in that way. Making this amendment to the Bill would have no bearing on our international reporting requirement, and it is crucial for clarity, consistency and transparency that we continue to report to the OECD in this way.

Secondly, regardless of this amendment, DfID will still have an annual budget, allocated by the Treasury, as we discussed in much detail in the last amendment, which it will plan to spend according to agreed forecasts. DfID will continue to seek funding from the Treasury that would enable the UK to meet the 0.7% ODA target from year to year. This amendment would serve only to risk reducing somewhat the predictability and consistency of the size of the annual budget, again something we addressed in the last amendment. I can assure the House that annual limits and measurements do not prevent long-term planning, which is what I think noble Lords are seeking to do in their amendments. As I said in response to the last amendment, delivering 0.7% GNI as ODA annually provides the United Kingdom with a relatively steady ODA budget each year. This allows for better long-term planning and more effective use of resources over multi-year periods, providing greater certainty over funding levels than would happen if this same target were measured over a five-year period.

DfID has a flexible portfolio of programmes and all of DfID’s spend is subject to a rigorous value-for-money assessment. Due to the dynamic nature of DfID’s portfolio, it is reasonable for programmes to be accelerated and decelerated to accommodate emerging priorities such as the crisis within Syria, for example. In its reporting on managing delivery of the 2013 ODA target, the National Audit Office found no evidence that DfID had failed to deliver value for money in the programmes contributing to the delivery of the ODA target.

My noble friend Lord Lamont expressed concern about measuring the ODA:GNI ratio. There is a clear and agreed statistical process which is overseen by the Office for National Statistics for reporting the ODA:GNI ratio. This enables a final figure to be reported in the year following the year in question. Of course, GNI estimates can and do vary. However, estimates are updated on a quarterly basis during the year in question and the method for assessing 0.7% allows for a reasonable level of statistical rounding to accommodate modest last-minute changes.

The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, and my noble friend Lord Lamont were also concerned about a potential rush to spend at the end of the calendar year. This is something that we addressed both at Second Reading and in Committee. I would like to reassure noble Lords once more that this is not the case and that there are mechanisms which the department uses to ensure that it spends its money in a strategic and long-term way. As noble Lords will be aware, the spending around the end of the calendar year 2013 was in part because there are some bills which always come in during December. Our bill for the EC attribution always comes in in December. Deposits of promissory notes for the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria and the World Bank are concentrated at the end of the year. I would dispute the suggestion that contributions to the global fund would be a less effective use of resources. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Fowler would certainly dispute that. Reaching the poorest through an organisation like that is often the best use of such funding. The NAO and the OECD DAC have recognised this good practice and have given their assurance that the Government have robust processes and mechanisms in place to manage those budgets.

My noble friend Lord Howell mentioned ways of making sure that we are contributing to development other than through grants. He will be well aware, for example, of the CDC and the contribution that DfID can make through that organisation. The Government are able to invest in a wide range of activities of which I am sure he would be supportive. They lead to wider development and can also contribute in terms of ODA. I will be very happy to give my noble friend all the details of what DfID does in that regard. As I said in response to the last amendment, giving 0.7% of GNI as ODA annually provides a steady budget.

I was extremely glad to hear about the family background of my noble friend Lord Brooke, which rather differs from my own. However, that said, I hope that noble Lords will be prepared not to press these amendments. I understand what they are arguing for, but I would like to reassure them that there is a strategic long-term plan, and adopting 0.7% enables us to deliver it more effectively. We report on it on an annual basis, but that does not mean to say that it is simply an annual budget. It is a longer-term, strategic approach to what we wish to achieve through development. On the basis of that, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment, but if he decides that he wishes to test the opinion of the House, I should make it very clear that we will oppose it.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I do not think that any new arguments have been put forward on Report on these amendments, which are identical to those we debated in Committee. I do not think that the case has been prosecuted, but let me respond to some of the points that have been raised. I believe that far from improving financial management or making the delivery of ODA more effective, these amendments would actually create a worse situation. In addition, they do not acknowledge that we would have to continue to report annually in accordance with the OECD Development Assistance Committee requirements along with what has not been mentioned, which is the International Development (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006. These would carry on, quite rightly, because the annual target, which is based on the UN annual target for the number of annual transfers that are direct from government, and the OECD DAC annual reporting mechanisms are both there.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I am a very humble sort of chap. I have sat here this morning, participated in the debate and have listened to former Cabinet Secretaries, former Permanent Secretaries, former chiefs of staff with great experience in defence, former Secretaries of State and former Treasury Ministers. There is an almost unanimous voice saying, “Look, we support the principle but, actually, the way in which this is being implemented is mistaken”. No doubt the Bill will make its way towards the statute book and people will be able to change it in the future. However, on this matter of the defence of our country, we are in territory that is of fundamental importance.

Having listened to the speeches of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, the noble Lord, Lord West, and, speaking from the opposition Benches, a former Secretary of State for Defence, who has held quite a number of other positions—a vast experience of government—I am very surprised that my noble friend the Minister has not said, “You know what? We need to go back and think about this”. I did not grasp whether she was saying that the Government remain committed to a target of 2% or that they would meet their 2% target this year. I shall happily give way to her if she can clarify what she was saying, because there is a degree of confusion about that.

[Baroness Northover]

I trust that I made it clear in answer to my noble friend Lord Tugendhat. He made the very reasonable point: why hypothecate this one but not the other one? I responded that the defence budget has been much more predictable. I understand the pressures on it and, therefore, there is a strong argument for making sure that the aid budget, which has zig-zagged all over the place, as we have heard, is fixed in the way in which we are seeking.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am rather disappointed with that answer. I am happy to give the Minister another go as she did not actually answer the question. The reason the aid budget has, as she said, wiggled all over the place is because the Government have added another £5 billion to it in order to meet their target. They have met—in fact, they have more than met—the 0.7% target this year, without the need for the Bill. Saying that the defence budget has been reasonably consistent has been challenged and I do not want to go over those arguments. The aid budget has moved all over the place because of the decisions made by Governments.

The point that I am asking her about is this: was she saying that the Government will indeed meet the 2% target this year, and are committed to that? If she is saying that, I am much less concerned about my amendment, and that is fine. If she was just saying that the Government have committed themselves to the NATO target, that is a completely different position. That is why she is arguing for the Bill in respect of the overseas aid target: it is not enough for the Government to commit to meet the target and we need to have it in statute. What she is saying about this is very important, so what was she saying?

[Baroness Northover]

We are talking about a Bill relating to development. We are talking about a 0.7% target to do with development. That is what the Bill is about and that is why we oppose the amendment: it does not relate to the Bill in question.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

We can all take it from that that the Government are not prepared to say on the record, with all the risks and threats around us in the world, that they are committed to meeting that 2% target. That is extremely disappointing, especially when the Prime Minister is going around telling other countries that they ought to do so. Surely the whole basis of the debate has been about setting an example to the rest of the world.

A number of points have been made. I want to pick up on points made by my noble friend Lord Marlesford and by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, which are profoundly important. The noble and gallant Lord talked about the fantastic job being done by our troops around the world, in conflict zones and elsewhere, to help improve people’s quality of life. That is something of which we should be immensely proud. We should not be proud of the fact that only £5 million of Ministry of Defence spending counted as overseas development aid for the year 2013. The Government are obsessed with sticking to conditions set by other people—who do not actually meet the target—as to what can be included in the target.

I listened to my noble friend the Minister’s boss, the Secretary of State, on the radio this morning, speaking from Sierra Leone. She was very good indeed. She said how committed she was to aid being about helping people economically. She spoke with great affection about the role being played there by our defence forces. But that is not allowed to come off her budget because it does not meet the target. Indeed, in one instance where we sent troops and people—I think to Haiti—the only thing that the MoD was allowed to claim was the fuel for the ships. That is an absurd position, which arises from being determined to meet a particular target determined by someone else, as opposed to thinking about how we can spend the money most effectively to help people in distress and need. In that latter example, humanitarian aid is less than 10% of the budget that we are discussing.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord, who speaks from experience, and I agree with everything he says. What we spend at the moment on overseas development aid accounts for about a third of the defence budget. All my amendment would do is say, “If you want to increase the overseas aid budget, you can do so, but we have to meet that other target as well”. That seems entirely reasonable and sensible, and I am afraid that the arguments put forward for not linking these two things were thoroughly inadequate. The advocates of the Bill have been hoist by their own petard.

I would just like to pay a small tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for saying right at the start that he would be consistent, but I was a little disappointed that he suggested that if I divided the House he might not be able to vote for the amendment because of the drafting. That seems to be something that he should be able to overcome. If the House decides to accept the amendment, I shall be quite happy for the Government to come back with new drafting. I am very happy to work with the noble Lord to ensure that we reach agreement on the drafting, just as we have agreed on the principle of maintaining the support for our Armed Forces and ensuring the security of our country.

[Baroness Northover]

Perhaps I may clarify that we will be giving no further thought to the amendment. I also clarify that if DfID contracts the MoD to deliver humanitarian assistance, it counts as ODA. However, following what the noble Lord has just said to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, I want to clarify that we will not be giving further thought to improving his amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

If that was designed to prevent me dividing the House, it was a pretty good example of negative advocacy. I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.

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[Baroness Northover]

My noble friend will have heard what the noble Lord said about respecting how ICAI is operating now. One would hope that that is the case in future.

I point out that ICAI is one part of a wider suite of scrutiny mechanisms. The National Audit Office has statutory responsibility for conducting value for money studies on DfID’s work, and it reports to the PAC, often critically, which also makes recommendations about DfID’s work. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s Development Assistance Committee also examines the UK’s development assistance as part of a regular series of peer reviews of donor aid policies and programmes.

The structure in the Bill provides that the Secretary of State is held to account to ensure that there is proper independent scrutiny. As I said, it is highly likely that it will be ICAI, and I hope that noble Lords will take as our commitment to ensure that our aid is very thoroughly scrutinised the fact that ICAI was set up in the first place. It is not appropriate to specify it in the Bill, for the reasons that I have given. There are checks there to ensure that scrutiny. I make clear that we will oppose the amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Before my noble friend sits down, by way of analogy, what would she think about a company which was spending, say, £11 billion or so that came up with the proposition that instead of appointing an auditor, it would appoint several auditors who were all jointly responsible and then pick the result that suited its interests?

[Baroness Northover]

I think that my noble friend has missed the elements where I mentioned the way in which the Secretary of State will be held to account for how our aid budget is properly and independently scrutinised.

International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Baroness Northover

Friday 6th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, on that point about the use of multilateral organisations, does the Minister agree with the National Audit Office report? It states:

“The Department phased its contributions to 2 key multilateral organisations to increase 2013 ODA. The Department has used the flexibility it has over when it issues promissory notes to fund some multilateral organisations to help manage ODA. In line with OECD rules the notes count as ODA when they are issued, which is typically 2 years before they are cashed”.

[Baroness Northover]

I mentioned earlier the way in which the notes promising the assistance were carried through. Obviously, with something like the Global Fund, one might make the kind of commitment to which my noble friend Lord Fowler referred in a particular year, which then is programmed in. A programme is constructed, which we carefully monitor, to carry forward the spending of that. I would think that the noble Lord would welcome that strategic way of doing things.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords—

[Baroness Northover]

Perhaps I may make some progress.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Northover]

I would like to make some progress. I am sure that the noble Lord will come back in again. I assure noble Lords that there is flexibility in DfID’s programming and budgeting. I should like to reassure my noble friend Lord Astor of that point. It is why at the end of 2013 it was possible to respond to a typhoon, which we had not anticipated any more than anyone else had, and to the unexpected level of displaced people coming from Syria who needed to be assisted over the winter. Part of the way in which DfID responds is to have that flexibility built in.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to my noble friend. I do not mean to harass her, but she did not really deal with the point that I was making. I am not making a point that the department does not give money to multilateral organisations, often for very good causes. I was asking her to confirm that the department uses multilateral organisations where the rules on what constitutes expenditure, which in this case was two years ahead of the programme being achieved, are driven by the need to balance the budget and not by the merits of the programme and that that arises because of the lack of the flexibility for which my noble friend’s amendment would provide.

[Baroness Northover]

I understand what my noble friend is saying. I can totally refute that. If the noble Lord were to look carefully at what the Global Fund manages to achieve, because it is a large-scale operation that is able to assist in the poorest of countries with the greatest need, or if he were to look at Gavi, which deals with vaccines and vaccine research, he would see that our supporting vaccinations directly through our bilateral programmes may not be the best way to go. Working with Gates and others in a very large enterprise brings down the prices, invests in research and takes forward vaccination, which has saved millions and millions of children’s lives.

[Baroness Northover]

I am extremely happy to endorse that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I was not really intending to speak on this amendment, but I want to get to the bottom of this point. I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Fowler about the importance of that programme and I pay tribute to the work that is done all over the globe in combating AIDS and to the organisations involved.

This is not about the merits of particular programmes; it is about the means by which the money is managed because of the lack of flexibility, which the amendment would provide for. Paragraph 15 on page 8 of the summary of the NAO report says:

“The need to increase spending was a factor the Department considered when it decided in autumn 2013 on the size of promissory notes it subsequently issued in December 2013 to the World Bank’s International Development Association and to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. The Department’s decision to issue more notes to both organisations in 2013 did not alter the total value of notes it planned to provide them and did not affect the content and timing of the programmes”.

So we are not talking about the programmes; we are talking about what happens as a result of having to find programmes in year where you have no flexibility. The advantage of going to multilateral organisations is that the expenditure counts towards the target when it is issued, even though it might not be incurred until two years down the line. That does not apply to bilateral programmes. Therefore, it creates a bias against bilateral programmes in circumstances where the budget needs to be managed. It is not about the merits of the programmes; it is about how the rules and the corset that is being imposed by the provisions in this Bill result in bad decisions potentially being made.

[Baroness Northover]

That was what I was refuting. The NAO report that the noble Lord quoted—I have read every word of it—found no evidence that the department had failed to follow its normal business processes. I can assure the noble Lord that business cases are put as to why DfID should support one thing rather than another. If the most cost-effective and effective way of supporting, let us say, the vaccination of children is to go through Gavi, it makes sense to do so. To have some artificial emphasis on bilateral programmes, which then reached fewer children, would be perverse. What I am saying to the noble Lord, and I hope that he will understand this, is that very thorough procedures are gone through before decisions are made. In many instances, depending on what DfID is trying to achieve, it may well be that a multilateral organisation can deliver more for the money that we put in and which we then lever also from others. I think that we have probably covered this matter sufficiently.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Before my noble friend sits down, perhaps I may get absolute clarity on this. The reports states, on page 8, paragraph 15:

“The need to increase spending was a factor the Department considered when it decided in autumn 2013 on the size of promissory notes it subsequently issued in December 2013 to the World Bank’s International Development Association and to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria”.

Is she saying that that is not correct?

[Baroness Northover]

What I am saying—I hope that it is clear—is that DfID needs to decide how it is going to spend its money. It was always known from 2010 what the trajectory was of that DfID budget. I think that the noble Lord was a member of the Economic Affairs Committee that reported in 2012 and took its evidence in 2011. At that point, that escalation had not occurred and the committee rightly expressed concern about that. However, all the reports thereafter have looked very carefully at whether that escalation was effective and value for money. It has been found to be a rigorous process.

We are now at 0.7%. We are not into escalation, but these multilateral organisations, which were stress-tested through the multilateral aid review in 2010-11, were judged to be value for money for the reasons that I have given. Bilateral programmes can be very limited in a very limited number of countries. What Gavi can do in sourcing vaccines, investing in research and so on and in involvement in many different countries can be much more effective. That is why DfID is a strong supporter of such organisations.

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[Baroness Northover]

When the Bill was introduced, there was considerable concern about duplication because ICAI existed. It is highly likely that ICAI will be the body that undertakes the reviews. My concern is simply to ensure that we do not exclude the operation of the other bodies that I mentioned—in particular, the NAO, which the noble Lord seems very much to appreciate.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to my noble friend, but what then does Clause 5(2) mean when it states:

“The Secretary of State must include in each annual report a statement as to how he or she has complied with the duty under subsection (1)”?

By the way, I do not know why we have “he or she”, because the rule is laid down that you do not need to provide for both genders in statutory legislation.

[Baroness Northover]

As a former Equalities Minister, perhaps we should take through some legislation saying that it is perfectly possible to have “he or she”.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am just saying that the guidance given does not provide for that. If she wants to change the guidance, I would be very happy to support that; I am just making the point that it is not consistent with other legislation.

Very cleverly, my noble friend has diverted me from my main point—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Yes, very stupidly, I have diverted from my main point. As we are here discussing not equality legislation but overseas aid, can my noble friend explain why it is necessary for the Secretary of State in each annual report to include a statement about how the Secretary of State has complied with the duty under subsection (1)? Surely that duty should be complied with immediately, not subject to some annual review.

[Baroness Northover]

I think that we are talking about equality legislation here—greater equality between well-off and less well-off countries and, in particular, the position of women and girls.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

That is a very important point, but can my noble friend answer my question, which is: why is it necessary to have in each annual report a statement as to how the Secretary of State has made,

“arrangements for the independent evaluation of the extent to which ODA provided by the United Kingdom represents value for money in relation to the purposes for which it is provided”?

Surely she should have those arrangements in place, or is the intention that they should go on for ever and never be completed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for answering the question which the Minister did not answer in respect of Clause 5(2). He is saying that the Secretary of State will produce an annual report on how he or she is being evaluated. That is not independent scrutiny and reporting. What is needed is an independent body which looks at the department and reports to Parliament, not to the Secretary of State. It is very helpful that the noble Lord should have answered this point because he is saying that Clause 5 effectively says, “The Secretary of State will decide who is going to hold him or her accountable for the programme of overseas development aid, then the Secretary of State will on an annual basis report to Parliament on how well the people reporting on him are doing”. That is a nonsense.

[Baroness Northover]

Do noble Lords have the Bill here? Perhaps my noble friend might bear in mind that the Secretary of State already has to make an annual report to Parliament, under previous legislation. Clause 5(1) says that:

“The Secretary of State must make arrangements for … independent evaluation”,

which is what we have been talking about and is indeed extremely important. Clause 5(2) says that:

“The Secretary of State must include in each annual report”—

the annual report that the Secretary of State is giving to Parliament—

“a statement as to how he or she has complied with the duty under subsection (1)”;

in other words, that the independent scrutiny of ODA has been carried out and that it is 0.7%. I think that the noble Lord is missing the point about the annual report, which is already in legislation and which the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to the Minister. She says that the Secretary of State has to make an annual report, which is correct, and that the annual report will enable people to look at how well they are complying with the 0.7% and the rest.

[Baroness Northover]

No, I am bringing my noble friend back to the fact that the Secretary of State makes an annual report to Parliament anyway, under the 2006 Act. That is an annual report not about how they have been independently scrutinised but about what DfID has done. I am sure that the noble Lord has seen those reports.

International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Baroness Northover

Friday 6th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

That does not make it better.

[Baroness Northover]

Being somewhat short, I could not see who was over there and who my noble friend might have been addressing.

Obviously I take very seriously what my noble friends have put forward. I emphasise that the commitment to invest 0.7% of GNI in ODA is an international commitment that is reported to and monitored by the Development Assistance Committee of the OECD. The UK reports on this basis to the DAC, allowing comparison across donors. To aim at an alternative ODA target for the United Kingdom based on GDP would not only lead to multiple definitions, but create confusion. It would also undermine our intention to fulfil our international commitments. This is an international target; it would reduce our credibility and moral weight that our commitment to the 0.7% target carries with our international partners—I have encountered widespread support for the move to the 0.7% target that we have taken—which would limit our ability to press other donors to meet their obligations, for example, to the Global Fund, which my noble friend Lord Fowler mentioned. This would not be helpful or in the spirit of our commitment to the world’s poorest. Gross national income became the preferred measure of measuring a country’s wealth in 1993.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I think my noble friend would acknowledge that the target originally set by the UN was GDP. This is a genuine question: could she explain to the House when and why it was changed from GDP to GNI on an international basis and why it is necessary for us to adopt GNI, given the implications that that would have in future, as my noble friend pointed out, of possibly less money being available and less certainty?

[Baroness Northover]

Certainly. GNI became the preferred method of measuring a country’s wealth. As I said, we are meeting an international target.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, in considering this group of amendments, I hear what my noble friends are saying about seeking to help the Government to manage our spending on official development assistance in a more flexible and predictable manner. However, these amendments, if carried, would have significant disadvantages, in our view, not least in terms of the flexibility and predictability noble Lords are seeking to promote.

First, as has been made clear previously, there is a need for an internationally consistent approach. The OECD DAC is made up of 29 members, and to ensure that monitoring and reporting of DAC members’ budgets is consistent and can be reported transparently, the DAC has decided to monitor ODA on the basis of single calendar years. If the UK moved to a five-year average, the UK would still have to submit annual ODA information to the OECD DAC. The need for consistency and clarity is essential. Importantly, using an alternative definition would also undermine the weight that our commitment to 0.7% carries with our international partners, as I mentioned before.

It is also important to note that the department already manages to an annual target, as does any other government department—as the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, mentioned—in order to deliver within annual budgets. Therefore—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords—

[Baroness Northover]

I think I had better continue. I am sure the noble Lord will wish to come in later. Therefore, a five-year target would not add additional flexibility. We have had reference to spending at the end of the 2013. I underline what my noble friend Lord Fowler said about the commitment to the Global Fund. I know how long it took to get that decision made and out, and the importance of that decision and the commitment that we made. I would also add, as I did at Second Reading, that it seems, perhaps, to have been set aside.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords—

[Baroness Northover]

I am not going to give way. I will carry on in the interests of time. We also faced Typhoon Haiyan and an unexpectedly high increase in the number of refugees fleeing violence in Syria and facing the winter in the open. I have read the NAO report. The NAO, in its scrutiny, found no evidence that the department failed to follow its normal business processes—and it looked very carefully indeed at those. For example, the report says:

“The Department took positive steps to prepare for the 33% increase in its budget in 2013-14”.

It also says:

“The Department’s decision to issue more notes to”,

the Global Fund and the World Bank,

“in 2013 did not alter the total value of notes it planned to provide them and did not affect the content and timing of the programmes”.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. I think that her argument is that, if the department spent, say, 0.8% one year, 0.6% another year and 0.9% the year after that but it met the 0.7% target over the five years, that would not be acceptable because it would look odd in the OECD statistics. As the vast majority of OECD members are nowhere near 0.7%, why is that a problem?

[Baroness Northover]

My noble friend has made his case very clear and others have, too, but we are managing the budget over a longer period in a way that it can hit those targets in those specific years. We have mechanisms to ensure that we spend our money in a strategic and long-term way. Noble Lords are very familiar with that—not least my noble friend Lord Fowler—and it does not require that kind of potential splurging at the end of the year in order to hit the target. We make annual contributions to a number of multilateral bodies and those are organised using the notes system that I have just mentioned, which allows a note to be counted as aid when issued but it is not cashed until the money has been properly spent in the fullness of time. This means that the department has the flexibility that it needs, as other government departments do, to arrange its accounting to fulfil its obligation to spend at the 0.7% target.

My noble friend Lord Tugendhat, in withdrawing the previous amendment, clearly did not feel that I had adequately answered his question about the OBR. I apologise if I did not answer adequately, and I will look very carefully at what he said and write to him if I need to clarify anything further. However, I hope that I answered his question on whether GNI is an international standard, as I went into that in some depth. Clearly, the target does not change the way that departmental budgets are reconciled with each other—that is not a challenge that we encounter. The ODA GNI figure is a national statistic and the methodology has been agreed by the Office for National Statistics. We are bound by that methodology, which is agreed and overseen by the ONS, which is the appropriate body to deal with that.

I remind noble Lords that the International Development (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006 established a duty on the Secretary of State to lay before each House of Parliament an annual report about the UK’s development efforts and spending, including reporting on progress towards meeting the 0.7% GNI target for ODA. Therefore, there is such an annual accounting in law anyway. Maintaining DfID’s accountability for tracking and reporting on its own spending to Parliament is more appropriate, both from a governance and a practical point of view, than putting such a responsibility on the Office for Budget Responsibility. If we were to do that, this would seem to be outside the current mandate of the OBR and might require revision of the 2006 Act.

Clearly, spending needs to be fully scrutinised, as the right honourable Margaret Hodge and the honourable Peter Luff said, and my noble friend Lord Purvis has outlined the very thorough and independent way in which that happens. I thank my noble friends Lord Howell, Lord Brooke and others for their wonderful tributes to DfID on the way that it manages this. Indeed, DfID is at the forefront of how best to assist in developing countries, which will undoubtedly change, and needs to change, over time.

Although I understand the intentions behind these amendments, I urge noble Lords to reject them.

[Baroness Northover]

I do not need to come back on Report, because I hope that I can answer my noble friend now. I find it immensely helpful that there is a definition of ODA. My noble friend is right that there is discussion of whether the definition needs to be updated, but the definition as drawn at the moment, which is what we answer to, is a very useful device because it makes clear that you cannot spend money on, for example, tanks or whatever someone might feel would be a useful way of spending the money. Therefore, from my perspective, it is a very useful discipline. There are certain things you can do within ODA, and it has to support the poorest and development. The noble Lord has probably seen the definition of what is excluded, as have I, and I frequently look at it. That serves as a useful discipline because, should DfID be asked to pass money to some department to do something which it feels is not appropriate, it is easy to point out that that does not fit within ODA and it would therefore mean that we would not meet the 0.7% target.

It is true that the OECD is at the moment giving consideration to whether we need to update this given the involvement, not in military offensives and so on but in what is now done internationally in terms of peacekeeping. However, that has not yet been decided. I am glad that the OECD is looking at what might be appropriate but I do not believe that any conclusion that the OECD comes to will be at variance with the basic commitment to support development in the poorest countries and of the poorest people.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

As I understand the Bill, it places a duty on the Secretary of State to meet the target. If the target is not met, there has to be a report to Parliament. Clause 3 states:

“The only means of securing accountability in relation to the duty in section 1 is that established by the provision in section 2 for the laying of a statement before Parliament … Accordingly, the fact that the duty in section 1 has not been, or will or may not be, complied with does not affect the lawfulness of anything done, or omitted to be done, by any person”.

Does that mean that the impact of the Bill is that, if the target is not met, all the Secretary of State has to do is lay a Statement before Parliament and then there is no further sanction against the Government? Or am I missing something?

[Baroness Northover]

I am sure that my noble friend Lord Purvis will address this issue. It is a Private Member’s Bill and the Government support it as it stands, unamended.