Public Expenditure: Value for Money

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, on the subject of value for money, can the Minister tell us what his or the Treasury’s estimate is of the difference in value for money obtained when an individual spends a pound according to their own judgment and when that pound is spent by Government when it has been taken from them in taxation?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the assessment cannot be done exactly in that way—but when it comes to procuring large public projects and it costs more to cancel the project than it does to complete it, that is not the sort of behaviour that most people would indulge in when spending their own money. I absolutely take my noble friend’s point that there is far too much waste in procurement in government expenditure, inherited from the previous Government, and that is not the sort of thing that any of us would do when managing our own budgets.

Housing: Shared Ownership

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 25th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Well, my Lords, the FSA, and what my noble friend has reported it as saying, must stand for themselves. I cannot directly answer for the FSA. However, my clear understanding is that the source book offers guidance on the way that the FSA undertakes its regulation and does not consist of formal rules. Indeed, for those societies with advanced risk management systems, there is not even an indicative limit on the level of shared ownership in which they can engage. As I understand it, building societies can lend within their statutory limits. They can undertake any lending up to their statutory limits provided they have appropriate controls in place.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, given that the sub-prime crisis in the United States was caused in the first place by government interference requiring lenders to lend money in an unsafe way, should we not be very wary about interfering in the lending decisions of building societies or others, however important the social issues are?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Government want to have a sustainable mortgage market in this country, and that requires a balance in maintaining a flow of mortgages so that people can get on to the housing ladder. In that regard, the actions which the Government have taken to ensure that market interest rates are kept low are paramount. On the other hand, we want to ensure that mortgage providers lend responsibly. That is why the Financial Services Authority is conducting a mortgage market review and why in July it issued a responsible lending paper for consultation.

Taxation: Avoidance

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it may be helpful if I make it clear that the £900 million of additional money that HMRC will have to use is principally to tackle tax evasion. We are talking about avoidance this afternoon, but the £7 billion will principally be from money that is not avoided but evaded.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that how we use language is important? There is a big difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. After all, everyone with an ISA is involved in tax avoidance. It is extremely important that we make clear the distinction between that which is legal and that which is illegal.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, who has made the position absolutely clear. Minimising tax payments is perfectly reasonable. Where it gets into the avoidance on which HMRC needs to focus is where people have minimised their tax payments in a way that HMRC believes to be contrary to the way in which Parliament intended the tax laws to operate.

Comprehensive Spending Review

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

We need to look at it in the overall context of what the Government have done for elderly people, because this is important. The critical decision is that the Government, as announced before, will meet their commitment to uprate the basic state pension by whichever is the highest—earnings, prices or 2.5 per cent—from April 2011, as well as preserving other key pensioner benefits, which people have questioned, including the winter fuel payments, the free TV licences, the bus travel, the eye tests and the prescriptions. I am grateful for the question on the detail but I think that it gives me the opportunity to emphasise the overall deal for pensioners, which we think is important in this spending review.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I congratulate my noble friend and the Chancellor on the excellent Statement, which shows great courage as well as great care in taking forward the mess that we inherited from the previous Government. The previous occupier of his office—the noble Lord, Lord Myners—was almost certainly correct when he assured this House that we would end up making a profit and getting our money back from the bank bailouts. Given that, should we not make it absolutely clear to the country that we have had to take these measures, which Members opposite are complaining about, because for years Mr Gordon Brown as Chancellor and Prime Minister made this country live beyond its means and was borrowing at the height of the boom; and that, despite these measures, our debt as a nation will increase? Could my noble friend tell me how much our national debt will have increased by, despite these measures, by the end of this Parliament? Given that number, how on earth can we take seriously Members opposite who are criticising what is a responsible programme from my noble friends and from our coalition partners?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I think I would probably faint at this moment if I even mentioned the debt number. The critical thing is that the debt will peak and we will bring it down, as we said we would, within this spending review. I am grateful to my noble friend for stressing that it has indeed been a courageous and careful exercise that is enabling us to make sure that the debt tops out and starts to come down within the spending review period. He reminds us that a twin failure of the previous Government caused the mess that we are in: first, as my noble friend points out, the great increase in public expenditure that we could not afford; and, secondly, the complete failure to regulate our banking system properly, which caused the whole house of cards to come down. I can give my noble friend the numbers on the public sector net debt, which will go up from 53.5 per cent of GDP in 2009-10 to a staggering 70.3 per cent in 2013-14 before we bring it down to 69.4 and 67.4 per cent by 2015-16 thanks to the measures that this Government have announced today.