Forest Risk Commodity Regulations

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I will write to the noble Baroness about Drax, because it is a very complicated issue. It fits into the UK’s net zero balance sheet in terms of what Canada is doing, where the woodchip comes from. I want to be absolutely right in my answer, so I will write to her.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the question from the noble Baroness, I entirely agree with her. What are the Government doing spending hundreds of millions of pounds in subsidies to Drax in order to have trees cut down in America and then brought across the Atlantic? All of this is because somebody has designated “burning wood” as ticking the box for “saving the planet”, which it clearly is not.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Biomass is a perfectly legitimate renewable energy source if the wood that is being used is a renewable and sustainable harvest. My noble friend and the noble Baroness are absolutely right that if the wrong sort of timber is used and being shipped to this country at huge carbon cost, taxpayers, shareholders and investors need to know the precise and genuine cost to our net zero commitments that that poses.

UN: Individuals Displaced by Conflict

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 20th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

I draw the noble Lord’s attention to the Integrated Review Refresh and the international development strategy, both of which were published recently, in which we reiterated our commitment to championing international humanitarian law. We are focused on protecting those most at risk, including from gender-based violence, and on barriers to accessing humanitarian assistance. We work closely with the UN humanitarian agencies, the UN General Assembly and the UN Security Council to promote compliance with international law, and will continue to do so.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, given the atrocities being committed in Ukraine, can it be right that the presidency of the Security Council is held by the Russians?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important and valid point.

Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Friday 9th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by congratulating my noble friend Lady Williams on her appointment as Chief Whip. I am very sad that her first duties should be in connection with this sad news, but we look forward to great things from her.

My Lords, I am lost for words. Having listened to the fantastic tribute made by the new Leader of the House—what a tremendous 24 or 48 hours he has had—and to those from the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, from the noble Lord, Lord Newby, from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, on the Cross Benches, and in particular the contribution of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. There is very little I can say that is new to encapsulate what we are all feeling at this present time. However, I would like to express and extend my sympathy to His Majesty the King and members of the Royal Family on this day of great sadness but also thankfulness.

I do not know if I am alone in experiencing feelings of bereavement and sadness that quite took me by surprise yesterday evening. I found myself hugely emotional, and I think many people in the country felt the same, on hearing the dreadful news. I think we all secretly hoped that the Queen would go on forever—a view that was expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, earlier. However, I would like to concentrate on the thankfulness rather than the sadness: thankfulness for the example, the dedication, the stability, the love and the leadership that Queen Elizabeth gave to our country and the Commonwealth. As we heard today, the thousands of tributes from every corner of the globe talk of duty, dignity, humility, integrity, humanity, compassion, kindness and faith, which were indeed the hallmarks of our late Queen and shone brightly in everything she did.

As Secretary of State for Scotland I was privileged to spend some time with her, and in Royal Week, where my role was basically to follow behind carrying the handbag, almost, I was privileged to spend some time with her and to see these qualities and her sense of humour at first hand. Her love of Scotland and her dedication to the United Kingdom—our United Kingdom—are well known, and it is a real blessing that she was able to die in her own bed in her beloved Balmoral in Scotland, having carried out her duties right to the end.

In the many millions of words written about her in the last 24 hours all over the world, many folk will have commented on how she could have shown these astonishing qualities so consistently over so many years and carried that great burden of office and responsibilities without putting a foot wrong. I believe, as the most reverend Primate indicated in his remarks, that the key to answering that question lies in her Christian faith and a life lived following the teachings of Jesus Christ. May God bless her and may she rest in peace.

Gender Pensions Gap

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

In relation to the point that many noble Lords have made about the time women have out of the workplace, I have outlined national insurance credits. In terms of the specifics that the Government are doing, I will need to write to the noble Baroness because I am not fully up to date on them.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend like to remind the House that pensions are not provided for by any fund and come out of taxation? The fact that the Government have been able to increase the pension by the rate of inflation as from September is to their enormous credit. It is an enormous bill and the Government cannot do everything.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I completely agree that the Government cannot do everything. It just is not possible. The triple lock is being restored for the rest of the Parliament and I think that, in the circumstances we are in, the Government have done a fine job on that.

Senior Citizens: Means-tested Benefits

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 23rd May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

On pension credit take-up, the noble Baroness has made interesting and accurate points. We have this campaign. The Minister for Pensions is working with the BBC, other media outlets, GP surgeries, post offices and so on. It is our job to make sure that people are aware of the benefits of pension credit and to encourage take-up, but there is only so much we can do in that way. We really believe that families could be helping relatives entitled to pension credit to claim it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the answer my noble friend gave earlier, when will the triple lock be restored?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

When the benefit uprating comes, based on the September figures for that year, the triple lock will be restored.

Social Security System: Rising Cost of Living

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her contribution. I will reiterate what the Chancellor said:

“We stand ready to do more as the situation evolves.”


Child benefit does not sit with the DWP, but I will find the person it does sit with and pass on the noble Baroness’s message.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend help me with a problem I have? Could she explain why it was appropriate to increase universal credit by £20 a week during the Covid epidemic but not now, when people are faced with exponential increases in their food and energy bills? Will she tell the Chancellor that we cannot wait—we need the money now? He got enormous credit for what he did during Covid, but the need is greater and the Government need to act.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I assure my noble friend and the whole House that the Chancellor does understand and is working hard on the issue that many noble Lords have raised today. I can tell my noble friend and others who are impatient to get something going—I do not mean that lightly—that the £20 uplift was a success but it was a temporary measure, and I honestly cannot make any promises that it might be reintroduced.

Universal Credit (EAC Report)

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

That the Grand Committee takes note of the Report from the Economic Affairs Committee Universal Credit isn’t working: proposals for reform (2nd Report, Session 2019–21, HL Paper 105).

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to introduce the Economic Affairs Committee report Universal Credit isn’t working. In the first paragraph of their response to the report, the Government say that they are

“surprised by several of the Committee’s observations with regard to Universal Credit … In particular, in contrast to the title of the report, the effectiveness of UC as a comprehensive benefits system has been admirably demonstrated in response to the pandemic.”

I pay tribute to the department for the way in which it dealt with the Covid outbreak and the speed with which it was able to put people on universal credit, but I have to say that the rest of the response from the Government shows that they are remarkably tin-eared.

In introducing the report, I begin by thanking our outstanding clerk Adrian Hitchins and our policy analyst Will Harvey for the splendid support that they gave to the committee to enable us to produce this report, which at long last has been given time to be debated. So much time has passed that I am no longer the chairman of the committee, but we have an excellent new chairman in the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, from whom I am looking forward to hearing later in the debate.

When the Government announced plans to introduce universal credit in 2010, the scale of their ambition was largely greeted with approval in Parliament and among commentators. However, support seeped away as universal credit was rolled out. The way that universal credit has been designed and implemented appears to be based around a kind of idealised claimant and it has features that are harming many of the most vulnerable people in our country. It is certainly linked to the exponential growth in food banks and it is probably also linked—although rent rises are a feature—to the dramatic increase in rent arrears. Many claimants reported to our committee that they find the system incomprehensible. Overall, it is fair to say that universal credit’s reputation has nosedived.

The Government’s response indicated that they were surprised by the title of the report, as I said. A couple of recommendations were accepted, although one of them was actually rejected and has now been accepted. Indeed, this very afternoon, the Government have been taking credit for reducing the taper for universal credit, which is a welcome measure. Nevertheless, during our inquiry, which was completed in July 2021, most witnesses thought that universal credit should not be abolished because of the severe disruption that this would cause for millions of people and thought instead that substantial reform was required in order to make it fit for purpose.

Change cannot come soon enough as far as I am concerned. The country is facing a major assault on living standards as a result of soaring inflation, tax increases, rising mortgage costs and savage fuel and energy price increases. The Chancellor’s decision to cut universal credit by £20 a week at this moment is simply indefensible. Conservatives believe in securing a safety net below which no one can fall and it is hard to see how millions of families in this country will manage in the months ahead. The conflict in Ukraine is forecast to put up energy and food prices substantially. Inflation is expected to rise to 8% this spring and perhaps even higher later in the year according to the Bank of England, which has consistently underestimated the rate of inflation and the impact of its policies of quantitative easing.

Of course, the basket of items used to calibrate CPI inflation does not begin to measure the actual inflation that many of the poorest families in the country experience. Scandalously, many of these very poor families have higher electricity charges through pre-paid meters. Benefits are due to rise by 3%, resulting in a substantial real-terms cut to income as essential bills escalate. Since our report was published, the Government have increased the work allowance and reduced the taper rate, as I have alluded to, to ensure that working universal credit claimants can keep more of their earnings. This is very welcome, especially since it supports the original purpose of universal credit to incentivise work. It still means that some of the lowest-paid people in the land are facing an effective marginal rate of tax of 55%—I note that the Chancellor has started to call the reduction of the taper rate a “tax cut” but, if it is a tax cut, it is an effective marginal rate of tax of 55%. That is 10% higher than people earning over £150,000 in taxable income. As if things were not tough enough, deductions from universal credit awards have left some claimants with an income that is substantially lower than their essential needs. Surely the DWP should be required to conduct affordability assessments before making deductions from awards.

Scandalously, universal credit is being used by the Government as a vehicle through which to recover debt. Most of this is comprised of around £6 billion of historic tax credit debt. Many people who owe this money are unaware of it. Certainly, the original receipt of an overpayment may have been outside of their control. The recovery of the money is leaving many households with an income that is well below what is needed to get by on, even before the current cost of living crisis. We called on the Government to write off historic tax credit debt that is owed by universal credit claimants. It should be treated as a sunk cost. Who really believes that this money is ever going to be repaid? Why create so much misery and anxiety among people who are extremely vulnerable in many cases?

The five-week wait for the first universal credit payment is the main cause of insecurity for claimants. Many people have nothing on which to fall back during this period, when their needs are most acute. The wait entrenches debt, increases extreme poverty and harms vulnerable groups disproportionately. The Department for Work and Pensions has introduced some measures to mitigate the most harmful effects, but these fall well short of what is needed. In the view of the committee, the DWP should introduce a non-repayable, two-week initial grant for all claimants. This would provide some security to claimants, mitigating the timing problems in relation to housing costs, and would make repayments of advances more manageable.

The way in which universal credit payments are calculated is based on a monthly assessment period and is designed to mimic the world of work. I ask the Committee: on which planet are these people living? Most people about whom we are concerned here are not used to be being paid on a monthly basis with index-linked pension plans, like the civil servants who have produced this scheme. However, it can result in substantial fluctuations in income month to month, which makes it extremely difficult for claimants to budget. This is impractical and fundamentally unfair and it should be resolved. We recommend that the DWP fixes the level of awards at the same level for three months. If claimants experience significant falls in income or disadvantageous changes in circumstances during this time, a mechanism should be introduced to enable them to have an early reassessment.

Paying awards on a monthly basis does not reflect the lived experiences of many claimants. It forces them to fit the rigid requirements of the system and causes unnecessary budget and cash-flow problems, both for those out of work and for those who are used to receiving wages more frequently. All claimants should be able to choose whether to have universal credit paid monthly or twice monthly.

Moreover, the way universal credit is paid as a single household payment should be revisited. Access to an individual income is important for maintaining balanced and equal relationships and, in more distressing cases, for reducing the risk of financial coercion and even domestic abuse. The DWP should review the option of a separate payment by default, drawing on the review carried out, I am pleased to say, in Scotland.

The conditionality requirements on claimants who can look for or prepare for work should be rebalanced. The extent of conditionality has increased significantly over recent years, too often to the detriment of claimants. Less emphasis should be placed on obligations and sanctions. Instead, there should be more support to help coach and train claimants to find jobs or to progress in their current roles.

The UK has some of the most punitive sanctions in the world, but there is very little evidence that they have a positive effect. Removing people’s main source of support for extended periods risks pushing them into extreme poverty, indebtedness and reliance on food banks. Furthermore, there is a great deal of evidence that sanctions, and the threat of sanctions, are harmful to claimants’ mental health.

We recommend that the Government publish an evaluation of the impact of conditionality and sanctions on mental health and well-being. Furthermore, we recommend that the DWP evaluates how the current length and level of sanctions facilitate positive behaviour change and how they lead to sustainable work outcomes. The DWP should also expedite its work on introducing a written warning system before the application of a sanction. Sanctions should always be a last resort.

Our report was an appeal for the Government to act now. That was in July; it is now even more important. Universal credit needs an immediate increase in funding to match the cost of living crisis, reform in its design and implementation, and improved support for claimants to find and prepare for work.

In his Mais lecture last month, the Chancellor quoted the opening paragraph of Adam Smith’s Theory of Moral Sentiments, which I am sure everyone in the Committee will have read. I will remind them of what it says:

“How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this kind is pity or compassion, the emotion which we feel for the misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive it in a very lively manner.”


In the difficult months ahead, may these words be his guiding light. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, this is an unusual experience for me, because I have not found anyone to disagree with. On the fact that this committee is so much in agreement, on 9 March 2021, we did something rather unusual: we had a joint meeting of the Economic Affairs Committee and the House of Commons Select Committee concerned with these matters. We were unanimous in our view, and we took evidence from Mr Couling and the then Minister, Will Quince MP. There was universal agreement, except with Mr Couling, who thought that we were interfering with his perfect system. I think he said that making any changes would make it even more complicated and that he had devised a system which he thought would be around for generations to come. It is a classic example of coming up with a perfect system that everyone has to fit into and then ignoring the problems that occur.

I pay tribute to my noble friend the Minister. She does a fantastic job, and we all know that she is very well aware, from her own background, experience and the care with which she does her ministerial job, of the kinds of problems that arise. We know that the real problem here is the Treasury.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I could not possibly comment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

That reminds me of something from my noble friend Lord Dobbs: “You may say that, but I couldn’t possibly comment”.

I very much appreciate the way in which the Minister responded to the debate, but I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, has been very patiently waiting to get on with the debate on the excellent Constitution Committee report, so I just thank everyone who has participated. Let us hope that the urgency and severity of the situation means that Mr Couling, the Secretary of State and the Treasury will mend their ways. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Women: Cost of Living

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I understand the passion with which the noble Baroness makes her points. All I can say, and I have said it time and again, is that I will take the representation back to the department and make it known, but I am not able to give the response.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Will my noble friend look again at the report of the Economic Affairs Committee on universal credit and in particular reconsider the decision to take away £20 a week from the poorest families in the country? I understand that it is very expensive—it costs £6 billion—but that is because it affects 6 million people: 6 million people who are going to have to cope with these astonishing increases in bills, not just energy bills but bills across the piece. Surely, in the name of humanity if not in the interest of politics, we should look at this again, given that the Chancellor is getting increased revenue from the rising costs of petrol and other energy sources.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

Many noble Lords have made the point about the £20 uplift. To be absolutely straightforward and open, there is nothing I can say about it, other than that for those on universal credit the taper rate compensated for some of the withdrawal. There are moments when I wish I was Chancellor.

State Pension Underpayments and Arrears for Women

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 21st February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point. All I can say at the moment is that the Government do not have any plans to change. However, I will take the point back to the department, because it is a very fair one.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, should my noble friend not be taking the point back to the Treasury? Is this not an example of the Government hiding behind the skirts of local government? The Government provide guidance to local authorities; why can they not provide guidance saying that they should disregard these payments?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I am very happy to take the point back to the Treasury, although I would not hold my breath—I will probably get told off for saying that. But again, I will take the point back to the department. My noble friend has made the point very clearly, as has the noble Baroness.

Environment Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 15th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 122, tabled in my name and those of noble Lords across the Chamber, including the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean—whom I am pleased to see in his place—I shall speak also to Amendment 127, which is in my name and supported by the same noble Lords. I declare my interest as president of the Heritage Railway Association.

The Heritage Fuels Alliance, which encompasses heritage railways and locomotives, steam road vehicles, steamboats and ships, engineering museums and historic houses, has worked hard to win the argument that to ban coal burning by its members would be disproportionate and absurd. It has demonstrated that it would inflict untold damage on a sector which, in the case of heritage railways alone, brings so much pleasure to 13 million visitors a year, engages 22,000 active volunteers, provides 4,000 jobs and contributes £400 million to the national and regional economies.

The vast majority of heritage railways, road steam events and steamboat operations are located in rural areas. This means the economic benefit is all the greater, especially where some heritage railways are the leading visitor attractions in their area, while any environmental impact is well away from clean air zones. Indeed, three national parks—the North York Moors, Snowdonia and Exmoor—all welcome and actively encourage their heritage railways. As an indicator of how much they matter to the country, and to the Government too, those in England and Wales received around £25 million from the Government’s Culture Recovery Fund to help them survive the Covid pandemic.

Turning to coal burning, the latest available figures, from 2018, show that emissions from coal boilers were 0.023% of total carbon dioxide emissions. The total heritage coal use is around 35,000 tonnes, compared with total UK coal consumption of 8.2 million tonnes. The sector has accepted with reasonably good grace that, in future, the coal it burns will not be mined in Britain, despite enormous untouched reserves, but imported. It is also working hard to reduce emissions and to trial the use of biocoal.

The heritage steam sector has received assurances from Ministers, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist, that the Environment Bill and particularly its clean air provisions will not apply to them, but they have so far resisted suggestions that they should put these assurances in the Bill and make it clear that primary legislation would be required if this were ever to change.

An identical amendment to Amendment 122 was debated in Committee on 5 July and supported by all noble Lords who spoke to it, including the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe—in her place this evening—who warned in a memorable phrase that

“this Bill could bring about the death of Thomas the Tank Engine and his or her nautical steamboat equivalent.”—[Official Report, 5/7/21; col. 1106.]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, posed a question which I put again this evening. He said:

“It is important that people have the assurance of primary legislation, especially when we see so much legislation that contains powers for Ministers under Henry VIII clauses, pretty well to do as they like, and which this House can do nothing about by tradition because we do not vote against secondary legislation. Will the Minister say why the Government are resistant to putting a clear commitment in the Bill that heritage vehicles not only are not within the scope of the Bill but are protected from the whims of any Minister?”

I hope we will get an answer to that this evening too. I cannot resist just quoting one memorable phrase earlier in his speech when he described Ministers as being

“here one day and gone the next—indeed, they can be here one afternoon and gone by evening.”

He said:

“It is not enough, despite Pepper v Hart, just to have an assurance from the Dispatch Box.”—[Official Report, 5/7/21; cols. 1111-12.]


Amendment 127 includes a reference to other subordinate legislation to include, for example, by-laws brought in by local authorities or other public authorities to ban coal burning by heritage organisations in their localities. I hope that the Government have reflected on these amendments and agree that not only would their Bill be strengthened by incorporating them on the face of the Bill but that they would also send a message of encouragement to a much-loved sector which gives so much pleasure to millions of people, contributes enormously to the national and regional economies, and which they, the Government, have supported financially through recent difficult times. I beg to move.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I will not repeat the eloquent arguments that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, made; I pay tribute to him for the wonderful work which he does in support of the heritage steam and other sectors.

I should declare an interest as president of the Steamboat Association of Great Britain, a post which I obtained unopposed, rather like the chairmanship of the Association of Conservative Peers today. It is not very onerous. It simply involves, from time to time, as we did on Lake Windermere to celebrate its 50th anniversary, turning up with one’s little steamboat and 37 others and bringing enormous pleasure to many people in our country. As I said at an earlier stage in the consideration of this matter, it is extraordinary how people will crowd to see a steam train or a steamboat passing and how it brings smiles and pleasure to their face.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for having repeated the arguments so that I do not need to repeat them again today. I understand that my noble friend Lord Goldsmith has a problem with how to respond to this amendment in terms of putting something on the face of the Bill. However, if we had an undertaking from my noble friend, who has been very helpful, that the Government normally have no intention of preventing the use of coal for heritage steam purposes, that would be helpful. It would be even more helpful if she would give an undertaking that it would require primary legislation to do so, so that the interests of others were met.

I will make just one point. I am not a sceptic on these matters—I have an electric car and do everything I can to help the environment. However, I find it quite difficult that, although we were on Windermere with our steamboats, the proposition is that, in future, we cannot possibly dig the coal out of the ground from Cumbria, the county where we were, but that we have to import it from Russia in order to save the planet. I do not know whether “bonkers” is a parliamentary expression, but this strikes me as absolute bonkers. It is also counterproductive, in that it makes people whom we should have on side on these matters sceptical about the application of common sense.

I am not an expert on these matters, but it is striking that these vehicles require a high calorific content of coal which is less polluting. It seems extraordinary that we have ended up in this position. Fortunately, I am not in the Government and my noble friend will be able to explain why this makes sense in the course of a reply to this debate. However, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, and I am very happy to support his amendments on both occasions. At this late hour, I do not think the House probably wants to spend a lot of time talking about steam.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Perhaps I may ask my noble friend about her reference to canal boats. I should declare an interest as I spent the weekend on a canal boat in Wales. She implied that they might be at risk. Can she be absolutely clear that they will not be at risk because they are also an important part of our tourism industry and are very important to a number of rural areas?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I brought up canal boats because, if they are moored in an inland waterway, they may be caught by the scope of smoke control areas brought in by local authorities in an urban area. That is why I particularly mentioned that they might be brought into scope, with reduced capacity to burn coal, if the canal boats are on an inland waterway in the smoke control area of a local authority.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I know that we are on Report, but this matter is important. The Government at a previous stage of the legislation indicated that heritage steam vehicles and, indeed, the amendment as broadly drafted would not be affected. As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said, on canals there are steam boats that have an important heritage. The assurance that I thought my noble friend had given was that they would not be covered. Given the assurances, if there is a loophole that would enable local authorities to include steam boats, it needs to be closed.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

This is not about propulsion but the heating system in a boat.