Ukraine

Thursday 5th September 2024 Lords Chamber

Question

11:30

Asked by

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with European countries regarding Ukraine and its war with Russia.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, Ukraine is defending itself against an illegal and unprovoked war launched by Russia, as per its right under the UN charter. UK support for Ukraine is ironclad. Ukraine was a key area of focus for the European Political Community summit at Blenheim, at which the Prime Minister brought leaders from across Europe together with President Zelensky. We are committed to working with our international partners to ensure that Ukraine gets the support that it needs to prevail.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, while I recognise the loyal support of Labour in opposition for the war but equally that it is for Members to question strategy where they disagree—in my case with regard to Ukraine in 21 debates over two and a half years in this House—is it not time for a strategy rethink, with new emphasis on conflict resolution, perhaps drawing on the developing relationship between China and Russia and the more opportunist relationship between China and America? With concerns in Europe over the war and the only talk of negotiation coming from a nightmare Trump, can we at least start to think out of the box? Ukraine’s policy of last man standing is unsustainable.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I completely accept my noble friend’s right to challenge, disagree and ask questions, both in this Chamber and outside it. I am very glad that we live in a country where that is encouraged and is possible with no consequences. It is for Ukraine to decide when it wishes to negotiate and on what terms.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister not find the wording of this Question rather odd, referring as it does to Ukraine and “its war with Russia”, as if there were some moral equivalence between the two? Further, in any discussions that the Government have with other European countries, will they please stress that, in combat, the only real alternative to dominant firepower is to throw more bodies into the battle? Restrictions for whatever reason on the nature and scale of weaponry supplied to Ukraine will not only imperil its tactical situation but will almost certainly ensure that even more of its citizens are killed in Russia’s war of aggression.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I share the noble and gallant Lord’s thoughts on the wording of the Question from my noble friend. I too noted the emphasis on Ukraine’s “war with Russia” and I disagree with that way of looking at this conflict. The UK has provided £7.6 billion-worth of support, including £3 billion for 2024-25, and we are proud to stand alongside Ukraine as it defends its territory.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, our support for Ukraine must be unwavering, unflinching and demonstrable. The Minister has just referred to the element of support under military assistance provided by the United Kingdom to Ukraine, but will she commit to this House that the support provided to Ukraine by the Government will, at the very least, be maintained at the same levels as that provided by the previous Government?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question but also for the work that she did in government on Ukraine. It is respected, and we wish to continue to support Ukraine both militarily and with non-military assistance. We have £242 million in bilateral, non-military assistance earmarked for 2024-25.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, in her initial Answer, the Minister mentioned the Blenheim discussions, which the Government hosted. That is a very welcome forum, but will His Majesty’s Government also move forward with closer co-operation with the European Union on security and defence? That would be another way for us to work effectively with our neighbours to support Ukraine, which Members around the House, with the exception of the noble Lord asking the Question, all support.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is correct to highlight the need for the United Kingdom to work closely with all our allies, and we do so particularly with our European neighbours and partners.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, a Ukrainian drone pilot told me recently that, when they shoot down a Russian drone, they take it to bits and analyse the components. They are finding components that are manufactured in countries allied to Ukraine, including this one. Is that something that the Minister feels we should investigate further?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are of course interested in all such reports, and they will be considered fully.

[Lord Skidelsky (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister assure the House that, before permission is given for British-made missiles to strike targets deep in Russian territory, Parliament is given an opportunity to debate the future British policy towards Ukraine? That policy has profound implications for our national security and ought therefore to be the object of proper scrutiny and debate.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The United Kingdom Government have been steadfast in their support for Ukraine. We understand that, in order to defend itself, Ukraine has needed to strike inside Russian territory on occasions—we accept and support this. It is unrealistic to think that none of those weapons or their components could have originated here. The situation as regards the limitations placed on what weaponry is given to Ukraine and what it can do with that remains consistent with the position of the previous Government.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the question from the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, how can we expect the Ukrainians to fight with one hand tied behind their back? Will the Government allow them to use the weapons that we have supplied to the best of their ability to defeat this evil Putin regime?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are completely committed to supporting Ukraine to defend itself. I just point to our commitment to provide £3 billion per year every year until 2030-31, or for as long as is necessary.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, we should give President Zelensky the long-range weapons that he needs, but surely we cannot give him a blank cheque politically. The war has entered a phase of attrition. Surely now we must ask ourselves: to what extent is it realistic to expect Russia to have a policy where it leaves entirely both Crimea and the rest of Ukraine? Otherwise, the war of attrition and stalemate will continue indefinitely.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My view, and that of the Government, is that that assessment is for President Zelensky and the Ukrainians to reach. It is their country that has been invaded and it is for them to say on what terms, if any, they wish to negotiate.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, there are signs that the most recent American sanctions are having an impact on the Russian dark fleet, which the Minister has previously mentioned in the House. Will the Government give an assurance that, when it come to the operation of the dark fleet or shadow fleet for oil or LNG, that there are no UK links with this, either through London, through insurance or brokering, or for landing licences or any flagging? This can have an impact on Russia and we need to make sure that no parts of the UK or overseas territories are associated with it.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord is correct to raise the issue of the shadow fleet. The UK has so far sanctioned 15 ships of the Russian shadow fleet, which is enabling Russia to evade international sanctions, as the noble Lord knows. In the margins of the European Political Community summit, 44 countries and the EU signed our call to action to tackle this specific issue.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, following the question of my noble friend Lord Forsyth, the Government have risked the wrath of the United States by restricting sales of arms to Israel; why do they not risk the wrath of the United States by allowing Storm Shadow to be used on Russian soil in the conflict with Russia?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am afraid the noble Lord is wrong about the wrath of the United States and the characterisation he has just relayed. In fairness, some of what I have seen reported in some elements of the media is not correct and that is not the nature of the discussions that the UK has had with the United States on this issue or the other issue he raised.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, with respect to my noble friends Lord Anderson and Lord Campbell-Savours, I reassure my noble friend on the Front Bench that it is my view that the vast majority of Labour Members in this House and in the other place strongly support the Government on their unqualified support for Ukraine against the aggressor, Russia. Ukraine is fighting not just for its own territorial integrity but for all of us in democracies.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for ending this Question and summing it up quite so well. I agree with every word.