Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Flight and Lord Blunkett

Committee stage
Thursday 15th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 47A requires that:

“In performing its functions in relation to technical education qualifications, the Institute must have regard to apprenticeships policy, including any future reform of the apprenticeships levy, in order to promote growth in apprenticeships opportunities.”


I believe that for many years, as a country and an economy, we have overextended educational qualifications and we have certainly underaddressed colleges. I hope that this Bill will be the catalyst that puts those things right. I agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Addington, had to say today. I view it as disappointing and shameful that the number of young people taking apprenticeships is now down to 160,000 in a year, and the Government have a tax revenue from the apprenticeship levy of £2.1 billion per annum.

Alignment on apprenticeship policy is needed urgently. This will be the third Bill extending the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education’s remit—the first created it in 2016 and the second extended it to T-levels in 2017—but there is still a complex four-way relationship between DfE, covering oversight, funding, intervention and the provider side; Ofqual and qualification regulation; Ofsted, the inspector of the provider side; and the IfATE and the development of programmes and their regulation. The Government should set out their approach to the apprenticeship levy alongside this wider skills agenda.

If the apprenticeship programme is to function successfully, it needs to remodel itself, with the offer of secure ongoing employment to apprentices upon successful completion of their programme, training and studies. This would be along the lines of the support and training offered when selecting officer recruits into the services. They are appointed in advance of taking up university courses and are supported through their degrees on the basis that, post qualifying, they devote a minimum number of years’ work to those who have sponsored them. Effectively, for an apprentice, this system could mean guaranteed support through study, with guaranteed work at the end. Similarly, the employers get exactly what they want in terms of skills and, equally importantly, a real return on their investment.

I hear employers are becoming increasingly dissatisfied at paying the apprenticeship levy without any guarantee of securing suitable training staff. This is particularly so in the context of niche, high-end skills, since apprenticeship programmes are designed to suit the masses. What works in terms of the necessary skills base for an employee at Wimpey Homes will not work for a high-end and very exclusive building company that requires not just a standard brickie but a true craftsman. Approaching apprenticeships in the way outlined above, in a bullet point, would go some way to addressing this concern. SMEs in particular have an understandably jaundiced view of apprenticeships, where they have often been left to pick up apprenticeship unpaid training plans.

Community adult education is a key part of the post-16 education landscape, supporting many adult learners to progress towards qualifications or into work and bringing many social and economic benefits. This is not prominent in the Bill as drafted or the White Paper which preceded it. There is a risk that some of the key objectives of the Bill, such as supporting adults to obtain level 3 qualifications, may not be fully recognised unless community adult learning is supported as well. It provides the stepping-stone for many adult learners returning to education and training.

There is a profound need to put right the balance between universities and colleges and to revive successfully the principle of apprenticeship. I hope that this Bill will be a major force towards achieving these things.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in speaking to Amendments 51 and 53 in my name, my job has been made a great deal easier by the very comprehensive and thorough introduction by my noble friend Lord Watson. I echo all that he had to say, including my support for Amendment 54 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, who will follow my contribution.

Before speaking to Amendments 51 and 53, I just say that I welcome today the Education and Skills Funding Agency’s step back regarding clawing back resources from colleges. I hope it will do so again with those residential colleges which are so crucial to what the noble Lord, Lord Flight, has just spoken about in terms of adult education and the ladder of opportunity. Reducing or clawing back their funding would be a very major mistake. I hope the Minister might be prepared to write to me about that.

I want to deal with the issue of defunding on the one hand and overlap, or duplication, on the other. It arises, of course, from what has become a rather sterile debate about whether A-levels and T-levels are the qualification of choice at level 3—by the way, “qualification of choice” is the term constantly used by the department both in written material and in responses. I just pose this question to the Minister: choice for whom? If there is not a choice, you do not have one. If, as was originally mooted following the report by Lord Sainsbury, we were going to have two tramlines running alongside each other and no opportunity for anyone else, whether walking or riding, to carry forward along the same road to qualification and success, we would have been in really deep trouble. As an ambassador for further education, I am pleased that there has been some movement, including on the back of the consultation and the Government’s report yesterday. There is great ambiguity, however, and it would be very useful—if we are going to avoid having to move and carry amendments on Report—if the Minister would be prepared to go back to the Department for Education to get a much clearer understanding, and therefore clarification, on what we are talking about.

At Second Reading—I will not tediously repeat what I said—I illustrated my own experience of being able to take a vocational qualification which also had elements that allowed me to take A-levels in the evening. I saw no problem—in fact, I saw a massive advantage— in having a vocational qualification and academic qualifications at the same time, and it stood me in very good stead. It is true that industry or occupational standards are absolutely crucial, but too narrow an occupational standard, which defines what is to be funded and therefore seen as a success in a way that applies solely to a very current application in industry or commerce, would be a very grave mistake. Therefore, my appeal is that, if we do not want to have to move amendments on Report, we must get these matters clarified, both the issue of overlap or duplication and the issues around defunding, which have been addressed so ably by my noble friend already.

We must also listen not only to those who already have the Government’s ear but to those who often do not, out there in the sticks. For instance, it has been put to me—and I would be very interested in having this refuted—that in the development of T-level engineering, we do not so far have a perspective on electrical engineering. This is a remarkable situation, given that the whole move in engineering is towards that area, not least because of climate change and all its knock-on effects. I would be very happy to be contradicted, but I have had it from very good sources that we are nowhere near down that line that I referred to earlier—the very narrow line—in providing that option.