United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord True

Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord True, has been true to his word. He has produced Clause 43A, which does not contain any element of illegality, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said. I also agree with the noble and learned Lord that it is a sensible provision and we welcome it. It brings to an end a saga for which this country has plainly paid a price. Everybody commenting on the position of the European Union at the moment is saying that the reason it is currently seeking the arbitral and consultation provisions, and the threshold for the ratchet up, is that it does not trust us—and one of the reasons for that is the internal market Bill and its illegality.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord opposite always has a delightful habit of ending his eloquent speeches with a couple of sentences that I find it hard to agree with, and I do not agree with his interpretation there. But I thank those who have contributed to this short debate. I am grateful for the welcome for the Government’s proposal—I do not talk about tails between legs—and that the other parts of Part 5, to which your Lordships objected before, have been accepted. As perceived from this side of the House, that was the correct action.

I need not repeat the essence of this. Clause 43A is required in the Bill because, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said, it is an important part of implementing the protocol. The clause places a duty on the Secretary of State to provide guidance. I welcome the fact that the EU has clarified that subsidies are within the scope of Article 10 only under the conditions that I described—a genuine and direct link to Northern Ireland and a real, foreseeable impact on trade between Northern Ireland and the EU. This addresses the risk of reach-back and must be reflected in the guidance that the Government will provide.

I am also, of course, grateful for the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. In concluding, I will emphasise, as he did, that this approach is fully in accordance with the United Kingdom’s commitments under the Northern Ireland protocol and international and domestic law.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord True

Committee stage & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 9th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Anybody who says there is no debate in this place because we are complying with the coronavirus rules is very misguided and rather cross.

The third line of defence comes from the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Noakes. They say, “This is just a sensible protective measure. Suppose there was to be a breach subsequently: here we are—it is in place”. I have no sympathy with that view at all, for two reasons. First, there is not a sliver of evidence that the European Union is not acting in good faith. One would have expected it to have been produced by the Government if that was the case. Secondly, the points that both noble Baronesses relied on are not covered by the terms of the internal market Bill. The at-risk provisions, for example, are not available to the Government to correct by the terms of the internal market Bill. There was a reference to the fact that they might be covered subsequently by the Finance Bill but, as the noble Baronesses know, there is to be no Finance Bill this year. Their defence has no foundation in fact.

I really hope the Government see sense quickly. This part of the Bill is the most massive own goal, but it is much more than simply the operational aspects. At its heart, this Bill breaks faith with one of the most fundamental parts of our constitution: the rule of law. It is not just the appalling position it leaves us in in the world; it is what it says about us, the United Kingdom. I proudly defend and believe in the values of my country. The rule of law protects each one of us, rich or poor, strong or weak, from all forms of oppression. We should not be, to use the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, “complicit or supine” in this toxic, casual, un-thought out, arrogant abandonment of our values. We should vote against every one of those vile clauses in Part 5 tonight and, if necessary, again and again, to persuade the Government that this should never become part of our law.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, I too begin by humbly paying my own tribute to Lord Sacks. His reflective witness to faith was, and will remain, an inspiration to very many people he never knew.

As your Lordships are unusually, as I understand it, intending to terminate all discussion on these clauses in Committee; and as some, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, opposite have somewhat brazenly—some people in the other place may consider—stated that this House may not be prepared to consider them again if invited to do so; and as, unusually for your Lordships’ House, some of these clauses have not been considered in detail, your Lordships must forgive me if I take some time to explain the rationale. I would, of course, like to thank all those who have contributed to the debate; although I agreed with the minority rather than the majority, I have listened carefully to them all and respected them all.

Lest there be doubt, let me put it beyond peradventure. The United Kingdom has stood, does stand and will stand behind the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. Nothing in this Bill is conceived to undermine that agreement. The United Kingdom Government intend no change to the status of Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom Government will never seek or support a hard border on the island of Ireland.

Equally, the United Kingdom Government will never accept that a foreign power, in the form of the EU, could unduly disrupt the free movement of goods within the United Kingdom’s customs territory. It is solely and specifically against such an unwanted, disproportionate and unnecessary potential intervention that the parts of this Bill, to which so many of your Lordships object, are designed. They are designed, as the minority of speakers in this debate—who were listed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer—have noticed, to protect east-west links, with full respect for the interests of the EU to maintain its single market, and designed to protect the basis of the Belfast agreement.

There has been significant and robust debate about Part 5, both in this House and the other place, ended with an extremely robust statement by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. The debate has focused predominately on the safety net or backstop provisions in Clauses 44, 45 and 47. However, Part 5 of the Bill contains crucial provisions which are not safety net provisions but protections that we want to apply in all eventualities. These provisions safeguard Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom’s customs territory and legislate for unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods to the rest of the UK market, which is clearly provided for under the protocol. They also codify in legislation the existing practice where state aid is notified to the European Commission by the Foreign Secretary via the UK mission in Brussels.

I understand that some noble Lords intend to divide the House to remove the whole of Part 5, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, made that clear today. However, if we go to a Division, there will be at least two groups with different issues. As your Lordships consider your votes, I urge each of your Lordships to consider each clause on its merits, and consider the signal that striking each out might send to the people of Northern Ireland. I listened carefully to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said, and I could not hear a case made for a link between Clauses 42 and 46 with what he sees as the offending clauses. I therefore do not see how they are dependent on one another.

As for Clause 43, I must disagree with the noble and learned Lord. I am clear that it stands entirely on its own as a means of safeguarding unfettered access to the UK market. This Government have repeatedly committed, and remain committed, to precluding checks or controls on qualifying Northern Ireland goods to the rest of the UK market. This is what the Northern Ireland Executive have asked for, what Northern Ireland businesses right across the spectrum from agri-food to manufacturing have asked for, and what the withdrawal agreement preserves and protects. Helping to give that effect is the sole purpose of Clause 43. It was not drafted to be interlocking or interdependent with any other clause in the Bill. If no other clause in this Bill were passed, the Bill would be able to function and stand alone as a means of protecting access for Northern Ireland businesses to—as we have heard—their most important market. To that end, while it does refer to Clause 47 in Clause 43(3)(b), that is only as part of spelling out that the clause in fact allows checks where applicable international obligations require them.

Given the broad support in Northern Ireland for unfettered access to their businesses’ most important market—and I hope that noble Lords have been listening to the speeches made by some of those who are here from Northern Ireland—it would be hugely disappointing for them and for businesses in Northern Ireland if noble Lords were to remove them unduly.

Before coming to the main argument, let me address briefly amendments in this group which would fall if the clauses in Part 5 are removed by your Lordships. First to fall will be Amendment 161, tabled by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames. I am grateful for having been able to discuss these issues with both the noble and right reverend Lord and the right reverend Primate. Their amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish a statement on the impact on peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland before regulations on export declarations and other exit procedures under Clause 44 can be made. As I have just underlined, central to any exercise of those powers would be our aim to ensure that the political and economic integrity of our whole United Kingdom is maintained, and that the Belfast agreement and successor agreements and the gains of the peace process are protected in all potential circumstances.

Above all, I so agree with the most reverend Primate and the right reverend Prelate that we must ensure that the delicate balance between all communities in Northern Ireland is maintained and the UK Government pursue policies for sustained economic growth and stability in Northern Ireland—the best route to sustaining peace, as the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, just reminded us. The statement that these have always been, and will remain, the Government’s priorities applies to all clauses of this Bill, not just Clause 44. Therefore, the Government do not consider it is necessary for this further step to be introduced, but we fully appreciate and endorse the motives and concerns of the opposers so powerfully spoken to by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames.

Amendments 158 and 159, introduced by my noble friend Lord Callanan, would ensure that the UK Government and the devolved Administrations can continue, as they do now, to respond to serious threats to the health of people or animals, a principle already reflected in Schedule 1. I trust that the House will accept the principle of these important amendments to protect people and accept that they are necessary for the health and safety of us all. They will fall today if your Lordships remove Clause 43.

I turn to Amendments 162 and 163 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. The Government agree with the noble Lord’s aims, and I hope that I can provide reassurance that the Bill already provides the protection he seeks. We are unequivocally committed to delivering unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods to the UK market. The Bill, unless that protection is struck out by your Lordships today, prevents any new checks or controls on those goods, thus ensuring that Northern Ireland goods have unfettered access—and, of course, those goods will not be subject to tariffs.

We are also working with the Northern Ireland Executive and businesses to ensure the next phase of the regime, which will come into force during 2021, focuses benefits specifically on Northern Ireland business, again as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and his supporters are asking. The amendment aims at much the same outcome as the Government does, but I submit that the benefit of our approach is that we can ensure unfettered access without burdensome requirements on business and do so as part of the regime that applies right across the United Kingdom.

On Amendment 163, again I recognise the noble Lord’s aims, but this amendment would risk tying the Government’s hands on how best to support businesses trading between Great Britain and Northern Ireland in future. The trader support service is, as the noble Lord’s amendment asks, free at the point of use and is part of the extensive programme to support businesses impacted by these new processes. While we have set out that it will be reviewed after two years, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttee, that this is by no means a guillotine on its operation. Legislating prior to review would not be best practice; circumstances will evolve, impacting the nature and best focus of any support that may be required. I hope that the points I have made provide assurance that these amendments are unnecessary. While we are ready for further engagement, I hope the noble Lord feels able not to press his amendment.

I turn to Amendments 179 and 180 in the name of my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, which seek to amend Clause 56 in Part 7 to ensure your Lordships’ House, as well as the other place, would be required to approve a Motion before Clauses 44, 45 and 47 can commence. The process provided for in Clause 56 operates in line with precedent that has been set in recent years for significant votes, such as the meaningful votes on the previous Prime Minister’s withdrawal agreement and votes on military action, such as the Syria vote in 2013. It ensures—and I hope my noble and learned friend Lord Clarke of Nottingham has read the Bill—that a mandate from the democratically elected House should be the basis for proceeding or not while respecting the important voice this place should have in a take-note Motion. That is the right balance, and I ask my noble friend not to press her amendments.

I return to the core of the debate: the view of many of your Lordships that Part 5, considered, amended, approved and sent to us by the elected House, has no place in this Bill. The Northern Ireland protocol is clear that Northern Ireland is part of the UK customs territory, and our manifesto was clear that we would

“maintain and strengthen the integrity and smooth operation of our internal market”.

Clause 42, which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, declared “contaminated”, delivers on that commitment. The Bill requires that, when exercising functions relating to implementation of the protocol or movement of goods within the United Kingdom, all authorities must have special regard to three fundamental matters:

“the need to maintain Northern Ireland’s integral place in the United Kingdom’s internal market … the need to respect Northern Ireland’s place as part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom; and … the need to facilitate the free flow of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland”.

Article 6 of the Northern Ireland protocol states:

“Nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from ensuring unfettered market access for goods moving from Northern Ireland to other parts of the United Kingdom's internal market.”


This clause delivers on those provisions in the protocol, in our Command Paper in May and in the Government’s manifesto. I see no contamination; I see clarity. In my judgment, it would be a serious matter for your Lordships to remove it.

EU: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord True

Tuesday 17th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says and understand where he is coming from, but I must repeat that both sides remain fully committed to these negotiations and to continuing them. Of course we are looking at the possibility of videoconferencing and conference calls as he suggests. That is the resolve of both parties in this negotiation.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Can the noble Lord tell the House whether the emergency legislation that we will be considering, either at the end of this week or the beginning of next week, will contain power for the Government to amend the withdrawal Act?

[Lord True]

My Lords, announcements about emergency legislation will be made in due course.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord True

Monday 14th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I will take interventions when I have finished this part of my speech.

The correct approach was accurately described by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd. I will embarrass her by quoting what she said in November:

“For us, of course, there is no Speaker here to make that ultimate decision”—

namely, whether we can accept an amendment—

“We all know what the Companion tells us; it has been repeated many times recently in this House. But by its very nature, it is advice that is offered to us and it is only advice; it is only expected to be taken. It is not a command, nor is it written on tablets of stone. I put it to the Leader of the House that, as there is no individual in this House to make the ultimate decision, is it not for your Lordships’ House to make that final decision?”.

I agree with the noble Baroness. It completely reflects how a self-regulating House should operate. I want to make it clear that my disagreement with the views of the Public Bill Office in no way reduces my respect for those in that office. I have the greatest confidence in them; they serve the House very well. This House should not feel anxiety about debating and reaching a decision on an issue such as this. Again, the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, got it right when she described her own disagreements with the clerks:

“But I took it in what I believed to be in the best interests of the democratic process, and to provide debate on a contentious issue of public interest and concern—and the roof did not fall in”.—[Official Report, 19/11/2012; col. 1623.]

Again, I respectfully agree.

Why is this amendment admissible? Relevance is the test. The language is different from that of the other place, but the slightly different approaches would usually achieve the same result. The rules exist to ensure that amendments to Bills are properly focused on that Bill and not on wider issues. There are no legally defined limits to what is relevant in this context; they are to be garnered from the approach of the House to previous amendments. The Public Bill Office rightly advised me, when considering this matter, to look at previous amendments which had been debated without any issue as to relevance being raised by that office. I was told that that indicated what is admissible since the Public Bill Office considers every amendment for relevance. With respect, I agree with the approach of the Public Bill Office.

Noble Lords will remember the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 which introduced a new system for fixing boundaries focused primarily on the number of registered voters in any place. Throughout the passage of that Act, which for these purposes deals with boundaries and the alternative voting system and not with registration, through both Houses of Parliament, amendments were tabled and debated that sought to delay the timing of the boundary review until such time as the level of registration of voters had improved. Concern was expressed on all sides of both Houses about the undoubted fact that there were unsatisfactorily low levels of voter registration—perhaps as many as 6 million people who should be registered were not. There was no substantial dispute on any side of the House that this was a problem that needed to be addressed. Neither the Public Bill Office in this House nor the clerks to the Speaker or the Speaker in the Commons regarded those amendments as either inadmissible or out of scope. The 2011 Act contains no provisions about registration.

This Bill speeds up the introduction of individual elector registration. Currently, the position is—

[Lord True]

My Lords, it was on this point that I had wished to intervene from the perspective of someone who spent 13 years in the usual channels. The question that the noble and learned Lord is putting is, I think, the wrong one. It is not whether the House can do it, but whether it is wise to be contemplating doing it. That was the point made most compellingly by the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn. I would ask this directly of the noble and learned Lord: if it is not the clerks to whom we defer for advice in these matters, then to whom? If, as was said earlier, we are now going to establish a practice whereby any noble Lord can put the case that their amendment is a good one so why do we not take it, or worse, if we are expected to go to outside lawyers or QCs for advice on what is or is not admissible, would that not be a revolution in the way this House does things and would it not advantage those with deep pockets or political parties with access? Most of the rest of us in this House do not have access.

Is it not the case that the—

[Lord True]

We are in Committee, my Lords. Is it not the case that our clerks are uniquely experienced and uniquely dispassionate, and that their advice is available equally to all? Is it not better to stick with the system we have than the new, revolutionary approach being proposed by the noble and learned Lord?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

My Lords, I am not suggesting a new and revolutionary approach. There is one group of people—namely, this House together—which has a better view than the clerks. I say that because the clerks are seeking, in the advice they give, to express the will of this House. I fundamentally disagree with the noble Lord, Lord True, that this is a change in practice. It reflects exactly what has been happening for many years. I refer to the debate in 1968 where the idea that it was in any way improper to discuss it was wrong. The consequence of being a self-regulating House is that when significant issues such as this one arise, ultimately it is the House that decides them. This is a classic issue which the House should decide.