Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Falconer of Thoroton Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
It would be madness to risk that coalition to stop the British people having a say in how they choose their Members of Parliament.
I know that many of my noble friends do not like or want the alternative vote system. Frankly, I am inclined to agree. As this Bill allows your Lordships to vote in the proposed referendum, I can let you into a secret: I will vote no.
Lord Strathclyde
I will have a vote in the referendum.
I can let your Lordships into another secret: my noble friend Lord McNally will vote yes. Some might think, as our votes will cancel each other out, we should just stay at home and have a quiet dinner together, but we will not, because both of us are agreed that the British people should have this choice, and we will each campaign for the answer we seek.
How odd it would be if this unelected House, which lately voted overwhelmingly against the very idea that your Lordships should be elected, should have the temerity to tell the elected House how to proceed on its own election or to deny its wish to give the people their say.
The Lords Constitution Committee has now published its report on the Bill. It states that there has not been enough consultation on it. Respectfully, I disagree. The proposals in this Bill apply entirely to the other place. It has been rigorously examined there over eight days on the Floor of the House and through 35 Divisions. It reflects the settled will of the elected House.
On the referendum, the Government have worked closely with the Electoral Commission and administrators, and the commission has declared itself broadly satisfied that sufficient progress has been made to enable the local returning and counting officers to run the polls well and that voters will be able to participate in them.
The provisions in the Bill are sound, and Members of this House should consider carefully the clear signal from the elected House before making major changes in it.
There has been speculation about the last possible date for Royal Assent to allow the referendum to happen on 5 May. I believe there is more than adequate time. It is certainly important that, commensurate withfull scrutiny in this House, we give participants and campaigners in the referendum as much time as possible to prepare for a full and informed campaign. We owe that to the electorate, but it is possible to do that and allow enough time to examine the Bill, which I hope will complete its passage as soon as possible in January 2011.
I do not want to make unnecessary political points, but I remind noble Lords opposite of a forgotten document: A Future Fair for All, the manifesto of the party opposite only this spring, written by their current leader. On page 62, it talks of, “A New Politics”. It continues:
“To ensure that every MP is supported by a majority of their constituents voting at each election, we will hold a referendum on introducing the Alternative Vote for elections to the House of Commons”.
That was what Mr Miliband thought then, so I take it that we will have full support from the party opposite for the part of the Bill that provides for what it itself promised at the general election.
There is a small quibble: the party opposite promised a referendum by October 2011. The Bill proposes it in May 2011—one year into this Parliament, but that is a far slower timetable than the six-month one used by the party opposite for the referendums on Scottish and Welsh devolution in 1997.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, together with my noble friend Lord Bach, I shall pick up the baton so expertly carried by my right honourable friend Mr Sadiq Khan and my honourable friend Mr Chris Bryant in another place. We have heard two speeches today from the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, the Leader of the House. In the first, he refused to engage with the issue at all, and in the second, he said that we should not think about amending the Bill because the House of Commons has approved it. I regard this House as responsible for improving legislation so, if the noble Lord does not mind, we will reject his second invitation.
This has been described as the most important constitutional Bill since 1832. Those are not my words but a description of the Bill by the right honourable Mr Nicholas Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, who came to office stressing that his job is to raise what he described as the hitherto lamentable standards of our politics. As he put it on 19 May 2010,
“This government is going to persuade you to put your faith in politics once again”.
The Deputy Prime Minister had the opportunity in this Bill, the most important constitutional change since 1832, to put his sanctimonious mouth where his money is. Instead, there has been no Green Paper, no public consultation and no pre-legislative scrutiny, which are all things that over the years we became so used to hearing the Tories and the Liberal Democrats demanding. At the first opportunity, they have disappointed us and they have disappointed the public out there. This is hypocrisy, and hypocrisy does not help to restore trust.
This Bill spent nine days being debated in another place, the place to which it is most important. The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in the Commons said of the process:
“The Deputy Prime Minister has accurately described the Bill as ‘fundamental to this House and to our democracy’. We regret that the Government’s timetable has denied us an adequate opportunity to scrutinise the Bill”.
The Bill before your Lordships' House today is an ill-thought-through, partisan muddle of a piece of legislation that, in truth, seems to be more about ensuring the longevity of the coalition than about nobler aims of equality of representation. As the Minister has told us, the Government seek to hold a referendum to ask the British public whether they would like to adopt the alternative vote system for Westminster elections. The intended date for the referendum is 5 May 2011, a day on which more than 80 per cent of the population will, in addition, be asked to vote in local council, devolved Assembly or mayoral elections. The Bill is being rushed through to meet this desired target date.
However, can the Minister explain to the House why the rush with Part 2? The independent boundary commissions of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are being asked to redraw every single parliamentary constituency in three years, which is less than half the time that previous periodic boundary reviews have taken. They are being asked to do so before the electoral register, on which the new constituencies are to be based, can be brought up to date to correct for the estimated 3.5 million voters who are currently missing from it. Under-representation is the real scandal, but this Government feel that that can wait to be addressed until after they have railroaded through new constituencies based on flawed data that will inevitably punish the people to which my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours referred. This is not fair but nonsensical.
If all that were not illogical enough, the Government—and the noble Lord did not even mention this—seek to take away any serious public say in the redesign of constituencies. Public inquiries, which are the democratic life-blood of boundary reviews and which allow local people a say in what happens to their local representation, are being removed. Why? Obviously, to fit in with the timetable. There is no rational justification for this haste, which is born of a wish to hold the next general election in 2015 and subsequent elections every five years after that using the favoured electoral boundaries. The Bill before us proposes five-yearly boundary reviews in future to match this election cycle. As our all-party Constitution Committee noted in its excellent report on this Bill,
“the provisions of this Bill and the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill are interrelated”.
The damning conclusion of that all-party committee was that,
“the constitutional relationship between the provisions of this Bill and the Government's other proposals for constitutional reform have not been adequately thought through”.
We wholeheartedly agree.
The committee’s criticism of the process is all the more heated—rightly so, we would argue—for the lack of any pre-legislative consultation. It is an insult to democracy and to the principles that we in this House hold so highly that a measure to enact constitutional change of such lasting significance has not been subject to pre-legislative scrutiny and public consultation. Only last month, the Leader of the House said that the Government are committed to pre-legislative scrutiny because,
“it improves the quality of legislation and provides an opportunity for public engagement”.—[Official Report, 28/10/10; col. 1306.].
What was wrong with this Bill, the most important constitutional Bill since 1832, that it did not require that? The Constitution Committee concluded:
“This is an unsatisfactory basis on which to embark on fundamental reform of the legislature”.
Lord Strathclyde
I do not like to overquibble with the noble and learned Lord, but I went on to say that early Bills in a Session could hardly be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny because they were early Bills in the Session.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
What a load of nonsense. Of course they could be subjected to pre-legislative scrutiny. I shall tell the noble Lord what you do. You say, “Let’s have pre-legislative scrutiny first”, as I understand the Government are doing in relation to House of Lords reform. Why could that not have been done in relation to Part 2 of the Bill?
Lord Tyler
The noble and learned Lord was a very distinguished member of the previous Administration. Does he recall that it took two years to bring forward any proposals on the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill and that, when the Bill came forward, it acquired a completely new clause on AV that had not been subject to any pre-legislative scrutiny? Was that not just the same thing as what he is now suggesting?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, exemplifies the attitude of the Liberal Democrats, who seem to think that the Bill is splendid and marvellous. Look at them. The moment that they have the most important constitutional Bill since 1832, they simply ignore the—if I may say so—entirely admirable approach to which the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, refers. I do not know why he is looking at me. He should be looking at the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde.
This is an unsatisfactory Bill. As its specific proposals are not to be found in either of the coalition party’s general election manifestos, we must conclude that not only is it an unsatisfactory Bill but, as the noble Lord appeared to be conceding, it has no mandate. This is truly a shame. We on this side of the House support the holding of a referendum on the electoral system for elections to the House of Commons and we approve of the stated intention to bring the size of Westminster constituencies more into line with each other than they are at present, but the way in which the Government articulated their proposals and rammed them through in another place quite hypocritically—as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has demonstrated—was shoddy. Then they say, “We can’t change it because the other House has approved it”. I should say to the noble Lord that this has succeeded in uniting opposition to their plans.
First, on the Liberal Democrat part of the Bill, the AV referendum, I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that the provisions in Part 1 are not in reality a referendum Bill. The Bill seeks to change our system of voting from first past the post to an alternative vote system, but it makes the introduction of those changes subject to a yes vote in a referendum. The referendum in this Bill is not advisory, as in all previous referendum Bills in this country, but binding. There is a requirement on the Minister to lay the order that will introduce the changes. It is totally unclear from the Bill whether it will be a negative or an affirmative order that will fundamentally change our electoral system. We need therefore to scrutinise very carefully the provisions concerning the new system.
The Bill proposes that the referendum will take place on the same day as elections already scheduled in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and most local authorities in England. The Government have failed to consult with the devolved institutions on the timing of the referendum. The plans have been condemned by the devolved Assemblies, but the Government have arrogantly ploughed ahead regardless and have not explained the magic of this date. We need to ensure that, if there is a referendum, it is one that best addresses the development of the electoral system in our country.
The following are points that we will explore in the next stages of this Bill. First, the referendum should be advisory and not binding. Secondly, the referendum should give voters the opportunity to vote on other systems apart from just first past the post or AV. Thirdly, the date should be moved to a date when there are no other elections. Fourthly, there should be a threshold of yes votes measured against a total number of those who can vote in the referendum.
Part 2 proposes a reduction in the size of the House of Commons by 50 MPs and a redrawing of constituency boundaries that—give or take 5 per cent—will prioritise the equal size of parliamentary seats above all other factors. Considerations of community, local ties, shape and accessibility of constituencies and geographical and natural boundaries are all to be subordinate to achieving the numerical ideal. On this side of the House, first, we ask the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, where the magic total of 600 constituencies has come from. I apologise for asking that because he has answered that question. He said that it came “from the air”. It certainly does not derive from either of the—
Lord Strathclyde
I did not say that the figure came from the air. I said that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, had grabbed it from the air. I said that it was a nice round figure.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I apologise. The noble Lord is absolutely right. It was the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who said that the figure was plucked from the air. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that it was “a nice round figure”. Thank you very much. Does the 600 figure have anything to do with research from the University of Liverpool, conducted for “Newsnight”, which clearly demonstrates that Labour will be the net losers in this situation? Labour would lose 25 seats to the Tories’ 13 and the Lib Dems’ seven.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Perhaps I may say that the unspoken interventions of my noble friend Lord Dubs are more powerful than the words of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. What is the effect of removing 7.7 per cent—some 50—of the total of MPs? According to Professor King, the respected psephologist, the average constituency size will go up from 66,000, which it was at the end of the Second World War, to around 105,000 by the time of the next election.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Does the noble and learned Lord appreciate that the figure given by Professor King was not of electors but of the total population?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I appreciate that. The reason why I refer to that figure is because that is the group of people that the MP has to deal with. If someone comes in and says, “I want some help”, I do not think that you say, “Can you prove to me that you are a voter?”.
MPs provide the pool from which Ministers are chosen. That pool would be reduced. The removal of 50 MPs would reduce at a stroke the number of MPs available to scrutinise legislation and to hold the Government to account. Professor King said:
“The House of Commons, compared with other national legislatures, is already a feeble affair. The present proposal would enfeeble it further”.
I hope that, in the five days that it cobbled together this agreement, the coalition thought about what effect this number—to quote the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, “a nice round number”—would have on our democracy.
Why does the coalition propose the reduction? The Deputy Prime Minister, whom I mentioned earlier, said that it was because the legislation underpinning reviews had meant that the number of MPs had crept up. That is what he said in the House of Commons, but it is not so. The number of MPs is lower than it was a decade ago and no higher than it was 20 years ago. It is virtually impossible to discern any principle underlying the proposal to reduce the number of MPs. We will oppose the reduction and we will in any event make any reduction conditional on a proportionate reduction in the number of Ministers in the Commons.
Crucial in the Bill is the method for determining new constituency boundaries. With the exception of Orkney and Shetland and the Western Isles, a new system will apply to all constituencies. The crux of the new system is that the driving factor will be the number of constituents in a constituency. We agree with the need for substantially greater equalisation of constituency size and that there should be a small number of exceptions to the process, but we consider that the constituencies to be treated as exceptions to the system should be identified and chosen in a fair way. Why not choose the Isle of Wight? Why not recognise the importance of keeping Cornish and Devonian constituencies separate from each other? We support the inclusion of the two exceptions that are already there, but we think that there should be more and that their selection should be entrusted to someone other than a politician. Let there be a fair process. If the hybridity route has been rejected by this House, perhaps there should be an inquiry conducted by the boundary commissions, which have proved themselves over very many years to be above politics.
As regional, council and even ward boundaries are crossed in the onward march to perfectly sized constituencies, representation will become more strained and harder to navigate. For instance, the Government’s insistence on only 5 per cent leniency in constituency size would require 385 extra electors to be found for the Forest of Dean and 59 electors to be expelled from Warrington. The prospect is ridiculous.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My noble and learned friend has mentioned the report of the Constitution Committee. Is he also aware of the recommendation of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee in the other place, which is a Conservative-dominated committee? It said:
“in terms of … geography, culture and history … We recommend that the Government brings forward amendments to the Bill to permit the Boundary Commission to give greater weight to these factors when drawing up new constituencies than it is currently allowed under the current proposals”.
Again, a committee of this Parliament rejects what the Government are doing.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I was not aware of that. There seems to be a trend that any independent body within Parliament that looks at this matter criticises the way in which it has been done and criticises the conclusions. The only way in which we can give effect to that is by this House introducing amendments to the Bill.
The prospect of the sort of fiddling around with constituencies to which I have referred is ridiculous and unnecessary. It can be removed by increasing the leeway to 10 per cent either side of the standard constituency size, which would give considerable equalisation but at the same time give the ability to reflect local needs. Mathematical purity should not be allowed to carve up communities. We advise the Government that they should seek a balance between equalisation and recognition of tradition, culture, and local authority boundaries rather than aim for bland uniformity.
To add insult to injury, the Bill plans to remove public inquiries from the boundary process. The proposals in the Bill have been described by Dr Stuart Wilks-Heeg of Democratic Audit as,
“the most ambitious attempt to redraw the UK’s electoral geography in six decades”.
As acknowledged by the chairs of the boundary commissions, every constituency will have to change. If this is not an ideal moment to include the public, who will be most affected by these changes, in a meaningful way, I cannot think what is. The Government talk—just as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has talked—of the big society and of a new politics where power is handed to the people, but they stubbornly ignore the calls of the constituencies of the Isle of Wight or Argyll and Bute to special recognition of their communities. The Government may talk of the big society, but with the abolition of public inquiries they will remove the one meaningful mechanism that allows ordinary people to have their say. I hope that the coalition Government will realise their mistake, but I am not optimistic.
The Electoral Reform Society has described the coalition’s proposals as meaning that,
“most constituencies will pay less regard to what most voters think of as community and natural boundaries, and change more frequently, destabilising the link between MPs and constituents”.
The United States, notes the Electoral Reform Society,
“has rigorous requirements for arithmetical equality of population in congressional districts, but the worst gerrymandering in the developed world”.
We want to support proposals for greater equalisation and we would welcome discussions with the coalition to achieve it. This sort of Bill is a classic vehicle for seeking consensus rather than ramming things through in this way. We will not support operating in this overly hasty way, which places the power to influence constituency boundaries out of reach of local people and which in the short-term will disfranchise 3.5 million people in the country, the vast majority of whom are young, living in private rented accommodation, in poverty and from the BME communities.
This Bill will promote rapid and damaging changes to our constitution in order to have the new boundaries in place by the next election. It will do so at great cost to local communities and to the unregistered voter, and it will do long-term damage to faith in our politics. We can achieve the goal of equalisation without the damage that this Bill will cause. I hope that the fact that there is now a coalition embracing the Tories and the Liberal Democrats does not mean that this House loses its reputation for amending Bills when they need amending. I hope that the House will join together to make this Bill a much better Bill than the poor, partisan Bill that it is at the moment. It can be done, and I ask your Lordships’ House to help us to do that.
Lord Baker of Dorking
Yes, and I enjoyed that enormously. I do not see where that comes into it. The constituency eventually disappeared altogether, it was so small. But if you think generally of all the other, great constituencies in the country—I would not want to make a personal matter of it—that is the plain fact. There has to be a greater equality.
Labour’s attitude, from what the noble and learned Lord the former Lord Chancellor was saying tonight, is that this Bill should not proceed because a large number of people are unregistered in our inner cities. The general comment was that it was not fair to do it until registration had gone up. I find that rather an astonishing argument. Some electoral scholars call the people who do not register non-people, although they are not non-people but actual people. It is quite possible for people to register if they are interested in politics; if they are interested in affecting society, they can register. It is their duty and responsibility if they wish to have it. If the Labour Party wishes to pursue that argument very far, it should ask itself what it did in office about registration of the electorate.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
We introduced individual registration and it drove up registration to more than 90 per cent. It is completely wrong to say that people do not want to register because they are not interested in politics. If you have a registration drive, registration goes up. The noble Lord is talking rubbish.
Lord Baker of Dorking
With great respect, I ask the noble and learned Lord to address the figures. That is a total exaggeration, which is not unknown from the former Lord Chancellor. In fact, very little was done, and I have read apologies from those on the former government Front Bench in the other House saying that they did not do enough. I ask the noble and learned Lord to read Hansard occasionally.
Among the other things I favour in this Bill is the proposal that the Boundary Commission should do five-yearly reviews. We have been accused of just looking after the Conservative interests in this Bill, but I have seen situations when Labour in office has deliberately delayed boundary reviews. Let me give an example. Before the 1970 election I had won a by-election in Acton, which was a Labour seat. We were coming up to the 1970 election and a boundary review was published, which was going to make my seat a safe seat, so I had a vested interest in it. Alas, the Home Secretary of the day, Jim Callaghan, did not share that interest and did everything that he possibly could to manoeuvre to prevent the Boundary Commission proposals coming before Parliament. It was a shameful process; he tried to jiggle a few seats here and a few seats there, and it had to be withdrawn. So for electoral advantage the Labour Party rigged the system in the 1970 election, and it has done it before.
Successive Governments have always been rather slow to introduce Boundary Commission reports. As a result, you had the electorate of 2000 for the 2010 election, while the 2005 election was on the electorate of 1991. Successive Governments have delayed. So I welcome the fact that this will be done on a five-yearly basis.
I am also glad that public inquiries are going to be scrapped. I do not know how many Members of this House have attended a public inquiry of the commission, but they will all agree that it is a misnomer to call it a public inquiry. At the ones I attended, no ordinary citizens turned up at all. The only people who turned up were the ward councillors and their wives—I suppose they are ordinary citizens—the sitting Member of Parliament, the various candidates and their election agents. It was really a rehearsal of all the submissions they had made to the Boundary Commission. Those with the small interests of the locality were not there at all. Moreover, with regard to the findings of those inquiries, the greatest changes that they have ever instituted were to change the name of the new constituency. In the whole history of the Boundary Commission there have been three inquiries leading to significant changes in the boundaries.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
The Boundary Commission report for England and Wales in 2007 said that 64 per cent of public inquiries affected a change in the initial proposal of the Boundary Commission.
Lord Baker of Dorking
Those changes are as modest as the change that the noble and learned Lord was speaking about earlier concerning the movement of Charlwood from Surrey to Sussex. That happened to be in my constituency. They are very minor changes on the edge.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Sorry, they campaigned on having a referendum on AV. To be fair, it was a post-legislative referendum.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Falconer of Thoroton Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper to refer this Bill to the Examiners to consider whether it is hybrid. This point arises before we move to Second Reading.
I should say that my noble friend Lady Royall, the shadow Leader of the House, gave notice of this point to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, last Monday, when she sent him the advice of leading counsel on which we rely. That advice has been placed in the Library since Friday of last week. My noble friend Lady Royall suggested that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, refer the matter to the Examiners straightaway. If the Examiners say no to hybridity, there will be no delay. If, however, they conclude that the Bill is hybrid, the consequences could be worked on as soon as possible to ensure a transparent process within the Lords’ Standing Order to select exemptions to this new Bill. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, did not reply but sent my noble friend Lady Royall by return a letter that he had received from the Clerk of Public and Private Bills in this House saying that he considered that the Bill was not prima facie hybrid on the basis that it engaged no private interests. It is our case that the Bill is hybrid.
Before I come to that argument, perhaps I may set out the consequences of such a reference today. Referring the Bill to the Examiners, which is what the Motion seeks, would result in the Examiners seeking argument from those who say the Bill is hybrid and those who say that it is not. As experts and without political bias, they would then determine whether it is hybrid. If they conclude that the Bill is hybrid, the Standing Orders of this House require that the procedures for private Bills have to be followed in part. Those include the setting up of a Select Committee of this House to hear argument and evidence called by those whom the Committee allow to petition it on the issue of whether there should be any other exceptions to the new rules apart from Shetland and Orkney and the Western Isles. The matter of exceptions would then be decided by a fair evidence-based process where the reasoning was transparent for all to see, not by what appears to be the fiat of the Government without explanation.
The Bill is divided into two main parts. Part 1 provides for a change to our electoral system from first past the post to an alternative vote system and it also provides for a referendum on whether to introduce such a system. If the vote is passed in the referendum, the Minister will be obliged by the terms of the Bill to introduce the alternative vote system. Part 2 introduces a whole new method for fixing the boundaries of constituencies. Instead of it being a matter of judgment for the Boundary Commission as to the most expedient place for the boundaries, taking into account geographical and other community factors, county and ward boundaries and the likely number of constituencies in a constituency, under the new Bill the role of the Boundary Commission will be primarily to ensure that every constituency under 13,000 square kilometres contains the same number of constituents plus or minus 5 per cent. Constituency boundaries will be allowed to pass through county and ward boundaries. Numbers will be all.
The consequence of such an approach is certain to be, for example, that the Isle of Wight will be divided into two and the constituency of one of the Isle of Wight’s MPs will be joined to the mainland. Constituencies will frequently cross county boundaries. There is bound to be at least one constituency that crosses the boundary between Devon and Cornwall. The two constituencies that are to be excluded from this approach are the Western Isles and Orkney and Shetland. The relevant provision reads:
“Preserved constituencies … There shall continue to be … a constituency named Orkney and Shetland, comprising the areas of the Orkney Islands Council and the Shetland Islands Council”,
and,
“a constituency named Na h-Eileanan an Iar, comprising the area of Comhairle nan Eilean Siar”.
The Explanatory Notes may be helpful to some Members of the House:
“Rule 6 provides for the two Scottish island constituencies of Na h-Eileanan an Iar (the Western Isles) and Orkney and Shetland to be preserved, and for the electorates of those two constituencies to be removed from the UK electorate and the Scottish electorate for the purposes of calculating the UK electoral quota”.
The Bill excludes those two constituencies from the effect of the new approach. Note that this is not an exception of the normal sort where, for example, no constituency can be above 13,000 square kilometres, which applies to the whole country; this is just two constituencies being taken out of the Bill. We support an approach that makes constituencies more equal in size, but we recognise that there should be a proper and transparent basis for determining which communities should be kept out of the Bill. The justification for the two exceptions was given by a Mr Harper, a junior Minister, who said:
“These constituencies have small populations and are not easily reached from the mainland. They have already been recognised either in legislation or in practice in previous boundary reviews as justifying particular treatment. We have concluded therefore that exceptions for these areas are justified by their particular geography”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/7/10; col. 1071W.]
To that answer, I say the following: first, there are many other constituencies with just as small populations that are not being preserved and no explanation is given for their exclusion; secondly, the Western Isles have never been so recognised before in legislation; thirdly, remoteness applies just as much to the many isles of Argyllshire as it does to these two islands; fourthly, geography could be applied to justify communities such as Anglesey or the Isle of Wight being excluded. No consistent basis is being advanced.
Is the Bill hybrid? The House of Lords Companion to the Standing Orders defines hybrid Bills as:
“public bills which are considered to affect specific private or local interests, in a manner different from the private or local interests of other persons or bodies of the same class, thus attracting the provisions of the Standing Orders applicable to private business”.
Is the Bill hybrid? I submit that it is. The easiest definition of hybridity comes from the Speaker in another place in 1988 in rejecting a claim to hybridity in respect of the Education Reform Bill that was passed in 1988. He said:
“In considering the question of hybridity, I have to look at the terms of the Bill. Provided that the formula or description used in the Bill deals with a category or class which is relevant to the purposes of the Bill and the Bill does not expressly specify or single out an individual or corporation within the category for different treatment, the Bill is not hybrid”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/12/87; col. 770.]
This Bill does precisely what the Speaker said in 1988; it singles out two constituencies that are not to be subject to a formula or description laid down in the Bill. Instead, they are singled out for special treatment.
Lord Naseby
Can the noble and learned Lord inform the House what exactly has changed since the Bill left the other place? The challenge of hybridity took place in another place and the Speaker was not called upon to rule. All that I can say to the noble and learned Lord is that, in the five years when I had the privilege of being Chairman of Ways and Means, there was never a single instance in which the upper House challenged the lower House on hybridity.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
No ruling has been given on hybridity by the other place and I would strongly urge this House not to regard itself as bound by the other place, which looks at constitutional issues in an entirely different way from us. The matter was never considered by the House of Commons. If this House were to say, “Once the House of Commons has not considered it, we are not to consider it”, that would be a fundamental abdication of our position.
Lord Renton of Mount Harry
Will the noble and learned Lord tell us whether any other areas such as those that he mentioned, including the islands off Argyll, have requested that they should have the same privilege—if that is the right word—as Shetland and Orkney and the Western Isles? Has he received any such requests?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Mr Reid, who is the MP for the relevant area, has complained bitterly, as have the MPs for the Isle of Wight and for Anglesey. Far from flying off on my own on the issue, I am reflecting the views of many people who would argue that places such as Anglesey, the Isle of Wight, Devon and Cornwall should have special recognition for their community position. As I have said, the Bill does precisely what the Speaker referred to in 1987, in that it singles out two constituencies that are not to be subject to the formula or description laid down in the Bill but are instead to be given special treatment.
The Bill is public, but the relevant provision in the Bill will affect the specific local interests of the people who live there in a different way from those who live elsewhere in the country. Others in the country who say that they should have the same right should be entitled to argue for it. Their specific interests are also affected. I respectfully submit that the matter is pretty clear. I urge the House not to be motivated by political interests but to listen to the merits of the argument.
Why is the Bill not hybrid? Three arguments have been advanced. It is said, first, by the Clerk of the Public and Private Bills Office that there are no private or local interests engaged here. The relevant Clerk was kind enough to have a conversation with me this afternoon, when I put my arguments to him and he put his arguments to me. Unfortunately, we were not able to reach agreement. I submit that he is wrong. Hybridity does not apply only to cases where a person’s property rights are removed—as, for example, in the nationalisation Bills or the early 19th century railway Bills. Hybridity also applies where the powers, for example, of a local authority are treated differently in one part of the country from another or where the very issue is where local authority boundaries can be drawn.
Many in the House will remember the Charlwood and Horley Bill in 1973, which was a hybrid Bill concerned with whether two parishes should be in Surrey or in Sussex. No one for one minute considered that that was not a legitimate interest on which to found hybridity. The arguments in that Bill were around, “I would like to be in Surrey because Surrey is better than Sussex” or “I would like to be in Sussex because Sussex is better than Surrey”. Do not tell me that that is a property interest. That is an interest about where I want my politics to be conducted and who I want to be my representative. The important point is that that shows that the reference to local interests goes much wider than simply property interests.
Issues might arise about who should be entitled to petition the committee about the terms of the constituency boundary process. Should such an entitlement apply to individuals, or should it apply to, for example, the local authorities for the Isle of Wight, Cornwall and Devon, or to the local MPs? Those issues can be worked out and resolved by the committee adopting a workable procedure, but the key point is that the hybridity process recognises as a legitimate, specific local interest the geographical unit within which you elect your representatives.
The second argument—this is dealt with fully in Mr James Goudie’s advice—is that it is said that it is not the practice to treat as hybrid those Bills that deal with matters of public policy whereby private rights over large areas or over a whole class are affected. If one examines, as I have done, the Bills on which this principle is based, it is clear that the principle is that, if a Bill deals with the whole of a section or an industry, hybridity will not apply even if it deals with different parts in different ways. If, however, some people are left out of the new scheme, that is a classic case of hybridity.
I give two examples on either side of the line. On this side is the Railways Bill 1921, which nationalised all the railway companies but nationalised the Great Western Railway company in a different way from the others. That Bill was held not to be hybrid because it dealt with the whole of the railway industry. On the other side is the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Act 1977, which left out one aircraft builder and was held to be hybrid because it left someone out. On which side of the line does this Bill fall? I have read out the relevant provisions and the Explanatory Notes, which state basically that the two constituencies are to be preserved and kept out of the whole process.
Lord Rennard
My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord help the House by explaining the difference between the Bill that we are due to consider today and, say, the Scotland Bill that was introduced in 1998? That Bill, which was brought in by the previous Government and provided for the creation of the Scottish Parliament, also contained measures to change the boundaries of constituencies in Scotland, and in particular to create separate constituencies for Orkney and the Shetland Islands. That Bill, introduced by a Labour Government, was never considered to be hybrid. Can he explain why this Bill should be?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I have cited the example of the Railways Act, which was a piece of legislation that dealt with the whole issue, whereas this Bill does not. This Bill leaves two constituencies out.
Finally, as the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, has pointed out, it has been said that the Commons have not declared the Bill to be hybrid. That is true, but no vote was sought and no application pursued. It is for each House to make its own decision, and I strongly urge this House not to accept that, if the Commons reach such a conclusion, we are bound by it. That would diminish the importance and independence of this House on constitutional issues.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord would correct a remark he made at the beginning of his speech. He said that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, wrote to me and that I did not reply. In fact, I consulted the Clerk at the Table who is the expert on hybridity in this House. Prompted by the discussion, he wrote me a definitive letter on hybridity, a copy of which I sent to the noble Baroness, as well as placing a copy of the exchange in the Library of the House. I certainly did not ignore the noble Baroness’s letter.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I withdraw the point. The noble Lord did not write a letter to my noble friend, but it was a bad point for which I apologise. I certainly did not intend to suggest that the noble Lord had been in any way discourteous, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, had not for one moment suggested that to me. I therefore apologise to the noble Lord.
The practice of this House is to refer a Bill to the Examiners if the House is satisfied that it is reasonably arguable that the Bill is hybrid. That happened recently in the case of the Bill that covered Exeter and Norfolk. Subsequently, the Examiners held that that legislation was not hybrid. No argument was in fact advanced to them that the legislation was hybrid because a court case after the vote in the House made the issue academic. I hope very much that the House will consider our arguments on their merits rather than on the basis of the previous occasion.
I respectfully submit that this Bill is hybrid. I have dealt with the arguments advanced against, but all that I need to do is to satisfy the House that the case is reasonably arguable. My argument also reflects the merits of ensuring that the process to determine what the exceptions are is transparent rather than just dealing with things by fiat. This Motion would allow a proper approach to be followed in selecting those constituencies that are to be exceptions to the Bill. I suggest that the House should be urging for a non-political basis to this.
Lord Roberts of Conwy
Can the noble and learned Lord explain the substantive difference between the two constituencies preserved in the Bill and the other constituencies of the United Kingdom?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
These two constituencies will never have to be connected to the mainland. Unlike the Isle of Wight or Anglesey or the islands off Argyll, Orkney and Shetland and the Western Isles will not have to be treated with a constituency on the mainland because the Bill states that the numbers-driven approach will not be applied to them. They will for ever be kept separate. That is the difference. They are being treated in a completely different way from the rest of the country.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, not only is my noble friend, like my noble friend Lord Rennard, right, but this relates to a Bill on which the former Lord Chancellor advised. The Scotland Act 1998—legislation of a Labour Government—made provision for Orkney and Shetland each to be a separate constituency in the Scottish Parliament and not to be part of any future Boundary Commission review. The noble and learned Lord raised no question of hybridity then. In addition, the same legislation—
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Perhaps the noble Lord could move his guns towards the argument. The reason for that is that the Scotland Bill dealt with the whole of Scotland. This Bill excludes two bits from it. Answer that, please.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there was no private interest affected in 1998 and there is no private interest affected today. If the noble and learned Lord really wants to remove the protection that we have put into the Bill, let him make Labour’s case in Stornoway, Lerwick and Kirkwall, but he should not waste the time of this House with these tactics.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
We make it clear that we support those two being exceptions. The question is whether other people should be entitled to argue for being exceptions as well. That is the point that the noble Lord needs to deal with.
Lord Strathclyde
Not at all, my Lords. I have brought two qualitative arguments—those of the Clerks of the House of Lords and those of my noble and learned friend the former Lord Chancellor, who have said that there is absolutely no question to answer.
Why has this popped up now? No one raised hybridity in the other place—the place affected by the Bill. No one challenged the legal drafting of the Bill in the other place—the place affected by the Bill. The Motion is a political tactic designed to delay a Bill concerning elections to the House of Commons, which the Commons, after long and careful examination on the Floor of their House, have agreed.
Frankly, the Labour Party in this House has to decide what sort of Opposition it wants to be. Does it want to engage with the great issues that led to its ejection from power and the loss of 100 seats in the other place, or does it want to use the kinds of procedural ploys, wheezes and games that we see today? Does it want to engage in the proper work of this House in scrutinising and revising legislation line by line, or does it want to manufacture time-wasting debates?
More than 50 speakers are waiting to speak on the Second Reading. There is an important issue here. We saw it last week in the vote on the referral of the Public Bodies Bill and we see it today. This House can debate procedure or it can debate substance. There is a great liberty in our procedures and we all want that to be preserved, but I hope that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition and the noble and learned Lord do not intend to try to take this House the way of the other place, where hours are spent debating procedure and many clauses of Bills are never discussed.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that would be up to the Examiners, but, based on the precedent set earlier this summer, it would be between a week and 10 days. Everybody knows that this Bill is on a tight timetable, which is precisely why we are discussing this Motion today. Six years ago, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, submitted from the Cross Benches that the Constitutional Reform Bill, a Bill profoundly affecting this House, which ended centuries of this House’s judicial role, be referred to a Select Committee. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, condemned that as political mischief-making and strongly urged the House to resist it. Now on a Bill that has nothing to do with this House at all and has been approved by another place—
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
The noble Lord is absolutely right, but he will also know that once the Bill was referred to a Select Committee by the noble and learned Lord’s Motion it was made so much better, and I publicly said that. I recanted, but what has happened to him? He supported that Motion.
Lord Strathclyde
But on that occasion, the noble and learned Lord did not have the support of the Clerks or my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The point is that today he comes forward as the political mischief-maker in chief, hoping to use the strength of his party’s vote as the biggest party in this House to delay your Lordships’ consideration of this important Bill.
The Clerks of this House are clear that this Bill is not prima facie hybrid and “cannot be hybrid”. I submit that if the noble and learned Lord and his friends do not have the good sense to stop this charade, withdraw this Motion and let us all get on with the Bill, your Lordships should put a stop to this outbreak of party-political mischief-making with our procedures and do so decisively.
Lord Strathclyde
Private or local; I am very happy with that as well. It is whether it affects it in a manner different from the private interest of other persons or bodies of the same category. In the opinion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and many others the right to vote is a public right and the manner and place in which it may be exercised are not private interests. It is on that basis that I agree with my noble and learned friend and with the Clerks of the House of Lords that there are no grounds on which it could be argued that this is a Private Bill.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
Of course communities matter. I yield to no one on that view but we are talking here about the specific question of whether the right to elect is itself a private interest, as described in the Standing Orders.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
The argument I am making, which is based on the Charlwood and Horley Bill from 1973, is that the interest lies in the group with which you vote. The argument over the Charlwood and Horley Bill was about whether you should be in Surrey or Sussex. It was not about an individual right to vote; it was about who you were grouped with. I earnestly ask the noble and learned Lord to consider his view on the Charlwood and Horley Bill and why I am not right in what I am saying. He is putting the argument back to me in a way that is not how I am putting it to him.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
Of course I am; that is my purpose. I am putting it in the way it should be put. To my mind, whatever group the individual may be in, it remains his individual right. That is not a private right as described in the Standing Orders.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, perhaps I may make two brief points. I had not intended to speak. Currently, I support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, but that is not the point I really want to make. We are hearing passages from the written opinion of a distinguished member of the Bar, a Queen’s Counsel, and, like me, other Members must think that that is profoundly unsatisfactory. We ought not to be asked to vote—as we shall be—on hearing little snippets. If the QC’s opinion is to be used in this House, we should all have an opportunity to read it.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
First of all, we gave a copy of the opinion to the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and to the other side, and we placed it in the Library of the House on Friday. I apologise, but I did say that in my opening remarks. I completely agree with the noble and learned Baroness—she is obviously right. However, we have made the opinion available to everyone. If the noble and learned Baroness would like to go to the Library and read it, and quickly come back to vote in my favour, I would be very grateful.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, having had the privilege of being in this House for 13 years, I say that this debate is one in which this House, most unusually, should not feel one jot of pride. I have listened with great care to what has been said. I have to say to the Leader, who knows the affection in which I hold him, that this is not his finest hour. I say that because we are faced with a subject of some importance. I have listened to the laughter and watched Members with a deal of disappointment because this subject is not very funny. It is serious, it is important, and it needs and deserves your Lordships’ serious consideration.
I wish to take particular issue with the point raised by the Leader, who made reference to our debate last week on the Public Bodies Bill. That was not a party political debate. The noble Lord will remember that it was, in many ways, led by the former Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and every former law officer who spoke did so with one voice.
Let us be frank. This is a real issue that we are asking the House to consider, and it is easy to dismiss what lawyers say as “mere technicality” and say that people are trying to take advantage of points for political reasons. However, there is a reason why they say, “Shoot the lawyers first”; it is because they are the ones who tend to tell people what they do not want to hear. But if not them, who? And if not now, when should we have this debate on hybridity?
The House knows that hybridity can be raised at any stage in the other place and here. This House has rightly received a great deal of praise for the sobriety and the reasoned way in which we conduct ourselves; listening courteously to each other and responding in a way that is right. Is there a real issue of hybridity here? Yes, there is. What is hybridity? In essence, it is about fairness. Should different groups and different individuals be treated differently? That is what hybridity does. We are asking for the House to consider whether the low threshold that everyone has spoken about has been crossed.
When we talk about our constitution, speed may not work to our long-term advantage. Therefore, it is important for us to think soberly. Every Bill that we have spoken of in relation to constitutional importance has had a White Paper, and often a Green Paper, a draft Bill and consideration. This Bill comes to us fresh, new, young and unseasoned, without an opportunity for mature and quiet contemplation. We do have an opportunity to do that. It is a simple question: does the House think that this matter should be delayed by a few days to enable the Examiners to decide the matter one way or the other?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I think that the mood of the House is that we should move to a vote on this matter, but perhaps I may deal with two points. It was disappointing that the Minister did not choose to answer them. I know that if I had been a Minister, I would have been provided with material that would have answered the points, and it was disappointing that what he sought to do was political burlesque.
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for being the only person who gave a reasoned argument about why I was wrong. With the greatest respect to the noble and learned Lord, I submit that he is wrong because he has failed to deal with the Charlwood case, in which the issue which contributed to making it hybrid was two parishes saying, “We want to be in this county, governed by them and not in that county”. That was accepting the principle that localities are really interested and that it is a local issue as to which group they elect to local authorities and local councils. That was important in relation to it. I respectfully say to the noble and learned Lord, whom I respect greatly in every single respect, that he has had no opportunity to read either the opinion or what was said in relation to the Bill that I refer to, which is my fault rather than his. The threshold is whether or not there is an argument about it. No one other than the noble and learned Lord said that it was not arguable. I had the support of the former Attorney-General—
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord must understand that many of us did not choose to make the argument, not because we do not feel strongly about it or do not have a very clear and argued case in our minds, but because we did not want to disadvantage the House in moving on to the Second Reading debate.
The noble and learned Lord must not mislead the House on this point, particularly when he talks about locality. The reality is that locality applies to every single constituency throughout the land. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is that if the Examiners start to meet, there is no reason why every single constituency might not come forward. It is not necessarily a matter of a week or 10 days at all. The question of locality is properly considered by the Boundary Commission when every constituency can look at local interest; it is not on a political motion about hybridity.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for not knowing what his arguments were, but as he did not express them and I am not able to mind read, I could not deal with them. The Boundary Commission will not deal with the Western Isles and Orkney and Shetland because the effect of the Bill—this is my point—has been kept completely separate and out of the arrangements; therefore, their locality has been protected and no one else's has. I ask noble Lords to consider whether there is an argument about hybridity in this case. I say to those behind me as well as those in front of me, please address this as an issue on which this House has a good reputation. I beg leave to seek the opinion of the House.
Intelligence and Security Services: Treatment of Detainees
Lord Falconer of Thoroton Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I broadly endorse the Statement and congratulate the Government on making it. I thought, with respect, that the reasons given for condemning Guantanamo Bay were slightly understated. It is not the indefinite detention that is bad; it is the fact that there was detention without any access to law and without a legal basis that was so objectionable. I congratulate the Government on setting up the judicial inquiry. I would call it a judicial rather than an administrative inquiry in the sense that a judicial inquiry implies that it is independent and separate from the organisation into which it is looking. Sir Peter Gibson, Dame Janet Paraskeva and Peter Riddell are excellent choices, but I have two further questions.
First, I agree with the Government that it is important that the approach that they take in dealing with detainees held by other countries should be clear. The three principles enunciated in the Statement seem to lack clarity. The first is that,
“our services must never take any action where they know or believe that torture will occur”.
Does that mean that a question should not be put to another country that detains somebody when it is feared that that other country may use torture?
My second question relates to the principle applying to the courts on keeping documents secret. The principles that the courts have applied over the years have been broadly effective; they can balance the interests of secrecy against the interests of litigants. What sort of changes are the Government considering in relation to that?
Lord Strathclyde
I thank the noble and learned Lord for his general welcome of the Statement. He clarified a view on Guantanamo Bay and I hope that he would not read anything into what I said as being far from the wording that he used, which is entirely appropriate.
On the inquiry being judicial, the noble and learned Lord will have plenty of experience on this and will understand the view that we have taken and the reasons for making the inquiry as it is. I very much welcome his endorsement of the three individuals who will lead the inquiry.
On the issue of clarity, one of the reasons for making this Statement is to try to give greater clarity in future for some of the decisions that are taken. For instance, there are no circumstances where we would authorise action, including receiving intelligence, in the knowledge or belief that torture would take place at the hands of a third party. If such a case were to arise, we would do everything that we could to prevent the torture from occurring. That is consistent with the absolute prohibition on torture and our values as a nation.
The reality is that, in most cases, countries do not disclose the sources of the intelligence that they share with us. However, the guidance leaves our partners in no doubt about the standards to which we adhere and the action that we will take if we suspect that intelligence has derived from the mistreatment of a detainee.