Irish Border: Checks and Customs Arrangements

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Tuesday 1st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord raises a point that we must be very clear in answering. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has been very clear: there will be no infrastructure, no checks and no controls at the border, and we will be in full conformity with our obligations under the law. With regard to the comments that have been floating around today regarding the dialogue with the EU, it will be easier to have a proper discussion on this issue when those documents are in the public domain, as they will be, to facilitate that very discussion and the interrogation by the Members of this House.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, we are having a debate tomorrow on the European Union. Not only do we not have a non-paper; we do not have any paper. It is very difficult to negotiate, suggest or judge if you have absolutely nothing in front of you. I appeal to the Minister to implore his colleagues that if we have a general debate tomorrow, at some point immediately thereafter—whether next week or whenever—we actually put down proposals in black and white that this House can debate and, hopefully, share with the other place. We are running around in circles and arguing over language, one thing is contradicting the other, and this merely adds to and builds up the uncertainty that is so corrosive to not only our economic but our political existence.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, it is important to stress that this House is not itself negotiating: the UK Government are negotiating with the EU. It is important in that negotiation itself to respect the conditions of the negotiation. Equally, it will be vital for this House and the other place to fully examine that which emerges from those negotiations, as it is right and proper to do.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, on his persistence. I come back to the point that a number of victims appeared in the local press in Northern Ireland today and one theme went right across. Yes, they would welcome recognition through a pension—we often forget that a lot of these people have been unable to earn a proper living and provide for their retirement because of their disabilities, physical and mental—however, they would all be horrified if the people down the road who caused those injuries were to get a benefit out of this process.

I am not a lawyer but I understand that one of the critical things when people take the Government to court over a piece of legislation is what the intention of Parliament was when the debate was being held. The Minister can clarify that, of course, because his statements will be part of the evidence in any case. I also ask him to give some thought to the use of terminology in the criminal injuries compensation legislation in this part of the United Kingdom. I believe that the word “blameless” appears in that legislation, so it is the eligibility, together with the fact that mental health is to be taken into account, as well as physical injuries. That is much more difficult, because the service availability to provide that kind of backup and assessment is in short supply, as we heard repeatedly earlier today. We do not want people with genuinely severe mental health problems to feel that they are second-class citizens in all this, so that has to be taken into account. The key thing is to ensure that it is blameless; that people cannot then find some loophole to climb in and get money, which would be rewarding them for their evil deeds.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I am very happy to speak on this and I will get right to the point. I am very happy to confirm for the record that the intent and purpose of,

“through no fault of their own”,

is the principal criterion by which we will ensure that victims secure their pension. We will also ensure that all eligibility criteria procedures abide by the “no fault of their own” principle. I hope that these words will stand alongside any interpretation of the Bill as it passes from our House to the other place. I recognise the “blameless” comment as well: we need to recognise that concept that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, put into the discussion. This is to ensure that those who have suffered through no fault of their own, not by their own hand, and who are survivors of a difficult and troubled time, are able to secure a pension now. That pension will be backdated to December 2014, so I hope that for some there will be a serious lump sum. I hope that that money can do some good.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for bringing this before us, for pushing it and for keeping us on track all the way through. I think noble Lords who have been part of those discussions will agree that it is through his leadership that we are where we are today. I would not normally do this, but it is also important that I praise one of my officials, Chris Atkinson. He has been instrumental in helping move this matter forward: without him, we would not be where we are today, and I put on record, from all of us who have been involved, how critical he was to securing success. On that basis, I am very happy to accept the amendment.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, this issue has been raised many times. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, may have deprived the House of 12 minutes of her prepared speech, but the parties in Belfast could still surprise us. It has perhaps been a depressing day listening to these debates, but there is always hope. I hope that they will surprise us and start to deal with this matter themselves. However, I have to say to the Minister that this is a bit like the carrot in front of the donkey: the closer we seem to get the more it keeps moving away, and it never gets to the point when something actually happens. I accept that the fact that there is money involved has its own implications, but I hope the noble Lord will be able to tell us that this will happen, and happen on a realistic timescale. Sadly, Sir Anthony did not live to see this, but it would be a tribute to him if it could be introduced as soon as possible.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I think we can make some progress this evening. I thank the noble Baroness for tabling her amendment. There is urgency. The last time the matter was discussed I said that the Government stood ready to move this through Westminster with a degree of urgency. The issue now, of course, is that Sir Anthony Hart’s recommendations have been considered by the parties, which have reached a consensus—but it differs from the original proposals in the Hart recommendations, so there needs to be some redrafting. We anticipate the redraft coming towards the Government in the next couple of weeks.

The route that the noble Baroness has chosen is one that might introduce a delay, and I do not think we need to do that. If she is willing, I will commit, in the absence of a sitting Assembly, to the Government introducing primary legislation on historical institutional abuse before the end of the year—which I believe would satisfy her requirements. On that basis, I ask her to withdraw her amendment.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but the Public Bill Office told me this afternoon that a Marshalled List will be produced tomorrow. Many of us will leave tomorrow afternoon, so we will have only tomorrow morning to draft amendments, and we will not know how these current arrangements in the clauses will be handled by the Government. There is the opportunity for a separate list of amendments to be produced on Friday, but there is a remarkably short time in which we can do this.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I certainly do not wish to curtail the ability of the Members in this regard, but noble Lords can lodge amendments just now. The Government have to actively engage to try to establish how they can move these matters forward. As I said at the outset, the challenge we face is that the amendments which have arrived with us have certain technical deficiencies.

Northern Ireland: Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Thursday 13th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the request from the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service to introduce measures to compensate the victims of Historical Institutional Abuse, as recommended by the Report of the Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry in January 2017.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

The head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service wrote to the Secretary of State on 2 May, providing her with the historical institutional abuse consultation report, draft legislation and a document that set out the key issues that require ministerial decision. The Secretary of State asked the Northern Ireland political parties to consider these important policy questions and to seek a consensus. She has now received their recommendations and will consider them as a matter of urgency. She is determined to do everything in her power to ensure the victims and survivors get the redress they deserve as quickly as possible.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

The Minister will be aware that, in addition to the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, as he said, all parties at Stormont have asked his right honourable friend to legislate to implement the Hart report, which came out in January 2017. Since this Parliament is effectively lying idle for the next six weeks, could I implore my noble friend to prevail on the Secretary of State to immediately introduce this legislation on humanitarian grounds? Why should these victims suffer all over again because of unnecessary delay? Thirty-one victims have died since the report was published in January 2017. Why should any more go to their graves without receiving justice?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord makes an important point. This is about victims and redress. The issue we face is that the original draft diverges significantly from the consensus reached by the political parties. This will therefore take time to redraft. That is what is being taken forward right now in Northern Ireland by the authorities. Once that is done, it will return to us and we will take it through both Houses as expeditiously as possible.

Northern Ireland Update

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Monday 29th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend Lord Cormack was short, sharp and very much to the point. We need to ensure that this is not a process that remains solely behind closed doors. It must involve all the Members of the Assembly, who bring their knowledge to the process. There can be nobody left behind. I include in that civil society and local government. Each must now play their part in this process to make sure that we deliver a sustainable Executive that can hit the ground running and restore the confidence of the people of Northern Ireland in politicians full stop.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, naturally I welcome any process and I have complained bitterly that there has not been one, but, in a bizarre twist, four of the party leaders at Stormont, including the leaders of the SDLP and the Alliance Party, are standing as candidates in the European elections in parallel with this process. I thought that we had dealt with double jobbing, but it would appear that we have not.

The Statement referred to the Belfast agreement. People are saying how wonderful it is and how much it needs be defended, but what is not recognised is that the Belfast agreement we are talking about is not the one that we negotiated and which got 71.2% of the people to support it. It was severely damaged in 2006. When the legislation went through this House, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives, who were on the opposition Benches at that time, fiercely opposed it because they realised that the core of it—the partnership model at the centre—was hollowed out to facilitate the two parties that did not negotiate the agreement. That means we should go back to factory settings and deal with the agreement we made. Last year, the Secretary of State said to the House of Commons:

“Clearly, the changes made to the Belfast agreement in the 2007 St Andrews agreement have made the situation we have found ourselves in for the past 19 months more likely”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/9/18; col. 354.]


Does the Minister agree?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, there is no question that the Belfast agreement remains the cornerstone of our approach. There is also no doubt that it has undergone evolution. In this process of talks, nothing can be taken off the table. All aspects must be available for consideration. Whether that ultimately results in a restoration of factory settings I suspect time will tell, but it will be important to ensure that we have the key aspect out of these talks: a sustainable Executive that can deliver and not be brought down by either noises off or any one political party.

I am also aware that the European elections, with which the noble Lord began his question and which we perhaps had not anticipated, are seemingly fast approaching. The landscape in Northern Ireland between now and the end of the year has a number of serious obstacles that we must navigate around. This is but one of them. I recognise that there will be challenges as the political parties seek to operate normal politics while involved in the extraordinary politics required to deliver an Executive.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, raises an important point, which is to ensure that there are voices from across the political spectrum. Whether the forums themselves are those committee structures—or indeed other structures—remains to be determined by those participants, but at heart I agree completely with what he is saying. There needs to be that representative element across the political spectrum and across the themes which need to be discussed. There can be particular themes discussed in closed rooms where only certain people are privy to the discussion. There also needs to be openness and transparency, and the political strata in Northern Ireland at all levels—from local government, right the way through—need to be involved in this difficult process.

[Lord Empey]

I am sorry for coming back again to the Minister, but he did say that everything is on the table. Just be very careful. Everything is not on the table. If we start opening up the whole constitutional question, I do not know where we will be. Do not forget that we had a referendum on that. People have been telling us that, because 52% of the people voted a certain way in a referendum, it has to be implemented. We had 71.2% vote for that referendum in 1998, and they were not consulted—and nor were the people who negotiated that agreement consulted—when it was changed behind our backs. Be careful about the language, because if we open up the whole constitutional Pandora’s box, I do not know where we will end up.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord makes an important point about everything being on the table. I think we can probably agree that there is a table, and that table must represent the three-stranded approach. We need to recognise the importance of the achievements of the Belfast agreement in bringing together the structures whereby we can move these matters forward, but it is also important to recognise that at heart we need to deliver a sustainable Executive which can deliver—that must be the outcome all aspire toward. I hope that using that three-stranded approach, and the various strands which must be woven into those three strands later, will help us move towards that outcome.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is right to raise that. I dearly hope that we do not reject the Bill now because, even if we were to act with a certain degree of urgency, it would still be a delay to what we need to deliver in terms of the rates themselves. If we are unable to address the rates question in real time, we are talking about a substantial loss to the revenue of Northern Ireland.

I hope that noble Lords will recognise that the endeavours this evening have been solely for the purpose of trying to address the genuine hardships experienced by those in the scheme. The purpose of the Bill is to make sure that nobody is considered to be part of an average and that each individual is seen as such. That data will then be used to inform the development of an appropriate element of the overall bill which will then be determined and placed before noble Lords in written form, so they can see it. There is no attempt on my part to mislead the Committee or to sell noble Lords something in a poke that you cannot put your hand into.

I hope that this is adequate for my noble friend Lord Empey. I know how much effort he, and all the Northern Ireland Peers, have rightly put into this matter. It concerns them on their doorstep, but it concerns all of us in these islands. Equity, fairness and justice must be the cornerstone of any Government. I hope that we have been able to reflect this evening on what this Government can do, within the constraints of state aid rules and the wider timing question. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Lord will be able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his contribution. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, from the Labour Party, and the Liberal Democrat Benches, for supporting these amendments alongside other colleagues on this side of the House. I just want to repeat my interpretation of what I think the Minister is saying, because if you withdraw amendments at a point such as this, it is your last throw of the dice and you lose control of the whole process.

First of all, the Minister is not in control of the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy; that is a fact. Therefore, in the Budget, £4 million was set aside in each of the next three financial years to deal with the buyback or buyout scheme. If that was simply looking at the individual burner in isolation, I could understand why such a sum of money might be payable. But, of course, many users used the profit on the boiler, perfectly legitimately, to lever out additional borrowing to do other things. The point that my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern has made all along is perfectly true: there is a moral issue. There is also, of course, a legal issue, but that will follow its proper course.

If I recall correctly, the facts, according to the Minister, are these. One point I understood him to make is that, as of 1 April, there is no ability for the state to pay subventions for these boilers—the point made, I believe, by the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont. On the European issue, I would argue that the scheme has been ultra vires state aid for a long time, not just now. It has been wrong from the very beginning, when payments in excess of a 12% return were made. As my noble friend Lord Lexden said, the 12% figure was set in the original letter in 2012 by the European Commission, approving the scheme in the first place. From that point, the 12% was always there but, of course, it went astray.

Let us get back to the point of fairness, justice and equity, because that is the key to all of this. We want to ensure that people get fairness, justice and equity, bearing in mind that the taxpayer has a big stake in this as well. Originally, a compensation or buyout scheme was planned. This is my interpretation of what the Minister is saying; if he disagrees with anything, perhaps he will let me know. He is saying that the status of that group will be upgraded to the point where it will not be an internal issue within the department but will be chaired by an independent, outside person who is not a member of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. He is saying that he will put forward, in writing to this House a Statement setting out the terms of reference. The question I need to ask him is: how does he do this when he is not in charge of the department? At the end of the day, my anxiety is that if we let the thing go, it will slither away, and somebody somewhere will say, “Well, I’m not doing that. The Minister can give an undertaking to the House of Lords, but he doesn’t rule me”. There is a genuine opportunity here to ensure that what is taken into consideration is not only the cost of the boilers versus the revenue that they would now be getting, but the leverage they used to ensure that the borrowings they undertook for further activities on the strength of that. That is the key issue, which was missing—if I may say so—from the original suggestions.

Can the Minister confirm those two points? Can he also reiterate for our benefit the answer that he gave—either to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, or the noble Lord, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown—about the legality and so on? I do not worry about the state aid issue because, in my view, we have been wrong on that from the very beginning, and it has gone on for years without any legitimacy. But could he just clarify those points before I conclude?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble and learned friend makes a useful point. I can happily confirm that this will not affect the legal rights or standing of any of those who have been affected by the scheme thus far.

[Lord Empey]

I thank the Minister for those points of clarification. He will be aware that everybody who spoke in this debate was basically on the same page: we want to help these boiler operators and owners. We want, as he put it, fairness, justice and equity. I have to say to him that if we accept these assurances—if I withdraw the amendment—and we were to find subsequently that these conditions were not being honoured, in spirit as well as in letter, there would be a great deal of anxiety and angst in this Chamber. The Minister needs to be very clear about that, because there are more people in this room tonight than I have seen here on a Northern Ireland issue for years. He knows, and his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office and in the Department for the Economy who are watching this know. I had the honour to be Minister for the two departments that were merged into this department, so, to coin a phrase, I know who they are and I know where they live.

We are talking about the livelihoods of good, honest, decent people and it is the will of this House to see that justice, equity and fairness is delivered to those people. If there is any variation or moving away from that, there will be a lot of very angry parliamentarians. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Monday 18th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, this Government are committed to the Belfast agreement. At the heart of that agreement is devolved power-sharing executive government. Restoring the Executive remains our priority. Northern Ireland needs the political institutions of the Belfast agreement and its successors to be fully functioning. However, in the absence of devolved government, the UK Government must ensure the maintenance of good governance and public confidence in Northern Ireland.

In November last year, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland brought forward legislation which, among other things, addressed the need for urgent appointments to be made to a number of public bodies. The initial phase of appointments under the Act has enabled the reconstitution of the Northern Ireland Policing Board, which recently met for the first time in its fully constituted form. This has also allowed: the recruitment of a new chief constable for Northern Ireland to be initiated; the replacement of the outgoing chair and board members of the Probation Board; appointments to the Northern Ireland Judicial Appointments Commission; and the initiation of a recruitment process to appoint a new Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland.

Under the 2018 Act, the Secretary of State also committed to make further appointments that are required in the absence of an Executive. The purpose of this instrument is to specify which further offices require appointment. In preparing this instrument, my officials have worked closely with the Northern Ireland Civil Service to identify those critical appointments that will arise soon. This instrument would add to the list in Section 5 of the Act, enabling the Secretary of State, as the relevant UK Minister, to exercise Northern Ireland Ministers’ appointment functions in relation to the following offices: the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People; the Northern Ireland Local Government Officers’ Superannuation Committee; the Northern Ireland Housing Executive; the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland; the Livestock and Meat Commission for Northern Ireland; and, finally, the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors. These are important offices for which the exercise of appointment functions in the coming months is vital for the continued good governance of Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister has brought forward a further list of appointments to public bodies. Although I have no objection to those in principle, I want to put on the record the difference between the Government’s approach to, say, the appointment of a member of the Livestock and Meat Commission and to an issue which I have raised in this House many times: the mess and crisis in our health service. Is the Minister aware that, against a target of 95%, only 62% of patients are being dealt with in emergency departments? The comparable figure in England and Scotland is 89%. English doctors recently put out a statement saying that they believed people were dying as a direct result of those figures. Yet our figures are infinitely worse and are getting worse every quarter. Time and again I have raised the more than 280,000 patients waiting for consultant-led appointments. Nearly 100,000 of those are waiting for longer than 12 months.

The Minister has said that his right honourable friend in the other place is taking the initiative and that meetings with the parties have been called. I welcome that, although it does seem somewhat ill prepared. We are a few weeks before a set of elections, so whether we can expect a positive outcome is open to question. The Minister will also shortly be returning to this House with further pieces of legislation, including a budget for Northern Ireland—the third one that the Minister has proposed—even though there is now no prospect of using the former Executive’s spending plans as a template because they are so out of date. He will also be coming forward with the second portion of the legislation under which this set of appointments has been made, because it has to be looked at again after five months.

There is a set of priorities here, but the priorities coming from the Government seem to be the wrong ones. I would have thought that people’s lives and welfare were a higher priority than some of the things in these regulations, albeit that I am for them. I have no objection to them, but they are being done against a background of hoping that if we pull the blankets over our heads the problem will go away. It will not. The Minister may find that in the talks that are being initiated next week, I believe, we will all be proved wrong, a massive amount of good will will flow and we will get devolution back—I hope that that takes place. If I am not surprised and pleased by that—if we find that it is not the case and things drift on—what will the Minister and his colleagues do? Are they just going to leave these health figures to get worse and worse, or are we actually going to do something?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I will.

“After all it’s a step in the right direction


It’s a step in the right direction after all”.

The rest of the song, I will not sing. I merely note it is a reminder that even small steps, as long as they are taken in the right direction, can make us go forward. I hope that the step taken on Friday is a small step in the right direction and will lead to some serious movement.

I must return to the matter at hand: the regulations. I have a form of words that I have to say—I have it in a bundle somewhere.

[Lord Empey]

While the noble Lord is looking for his music score, I will say that it is good that we can have a moment of humour on an issue like this. But the question was asked about the backstop and the role that Northern Ireland could play. When we asked what input people from Northern Ireland would have into the whole Brexit debate, we were told repeatedly that there would be consultations and so on. It did not happen that way.

In my view, instead of the Belfast agreement being used as an obstacle, parts of it could be the solution. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred to the other parts of the agreement. We are forgetting that the agreement is a complicated mixture. Even at this late stage in the process, I ask the Minister: what alternative thinking is going on in the NIO as to how we might replace Stormont? I have not had an answer to that, either today or on other occasions when it was raised. The bits and pieces of the jigsaw are all on the table, but nobody is putting them together in the right way.

Trade flows across the Irish border represent 0.1% of European trade flows. How is it that, as a nation and as a continent, we are in such a state over that when we are ignoring the very institutions that are a part of the solution? Will the Minister reflect on this and consult with his right honourable friend in the other place? Perhaps he should serenade her, as he has a talent for it.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord for giving me a moment or two to find my place in my notes and for the reminder that these are serious issues. He is correct, I did not give him an answer to his question. He will be aware that I was not able to find the right answer to give—and that is part of the challenge, to be frank.

I am also aware that I have not appropriately answered the question of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble. I will reflect upon that, come back to him on it and share the answer more widely with other Members of the House. I am conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made the point about seeing this not simply through the lens of Northern Ireland but through a broader sense of the devolution settlements. He is absolutely right. We cannot lose sight of that fact, either.

However, I have found my form of words, which are: I beg to move.

Northern Ireland: Devolved Government

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Thursday 24th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

There were three questions inside that. The first is an assessment of where Sinn Féin rests at the moment. There needs to be greater action from all the parties to bring about the resolution of an Executive. We have not achieved that, and I cannot give the comfort that I would like to my noble friend, nor to the people of Northern Ireland. In terms of the question that I know the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has raised on a number of occasions regarding the health service, we continue to invest in the health service but recognise the shortcomings of the current system. It cannot go on, as I have said before, and it will not go on. The reality remains that we must do more to try to bring that about. I hope that that momentum will achieve something within the window that we opened for negotiations to settle this. That is what we must deliver. That window will last until March.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, despite the Statements that have been made from the Front Bench over a number of months, there is no process taking place led by the Secretary of State to get negotiations going. As a consequence, a vacuum has been created. That vacuum is being filled already, as we saw at the weekend, by the men of violence. Will he prevail upon his right honourable friend in the other place to get her skates on and get a process started to get this matter resolved? It could have helped us greatly over the Brexit problem if there were a proper process leading to a conclusion.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I assure the noble Lord that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland does indeed have her skates on, but unfortunately not everyone else is wearing their skates and willing to dance to the same tune. That remains the challenge that we face. We are in a difficult situation just now because not everyone is facing in the same direction. But the reality remains that good governance must be the first task of this Government, and we will deliver that by whichever means is required within the timeframes that we have set out.

Northern Ireland Executive: Update

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Thursday 6th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord puts it on the line. The reality is that there must be consequences for those who fail to deliver a restored Executive. There cannot be jobs for life; it cannot be business as usual; it cannot be continuity with what we have experienced so far. I appreciate the point which he raises: those who are in the room or not in the room seem not to be committed to the outcome which the people themselves are crying out for and, whenever asked, have endorsed. I take on board the points made and will reflect on them, but stress again the key aspect that we have but a short time to deliver this outcome, and those who fail in that will be remembered.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the subtext of the Statement is that the Government are hunkering down for a prolonged period of no government. The Secretary of State is jumping before she is pushed by the courts over the elections, because a judicial review is already pending and I do not think she could have defended herself had action not been taken.

Given that it is highly unlikely that there will be any immediate restoration of devolution, I drew to the House’s attention on Tuesday the plight of our National Health Service in Northern Ireland. As the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, pointed out, this should be a completely non-political and humanitarian situation. I ask the Minister to consult his right honourable friend in the other place to see whether they can arrange, in consultation with the other parties—the Opposition, the Liberal Democrats and others—all-party support for restoring those powers temporarily to here, so that we can do something about the hundreds of thousands of people on waiting lists and the 89,000 people who are waiting for more than 12 months for their first consultant-led appointment. We are talking about quality of life and ultimately, I believe, about life and death. Surely we can do something. This is not a political issue; it is a humanitarian issue. I appeal to the Minister to consult his right honourable friend to see whether that could be incorporated in the legislation coming after the Conference Recess.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is right to raise one of the issues that affects all people in these islands, which is the need for a good healthcare service—which should be, one would hope, one of the principal focuses of any Government. The fact that we are living through a time in which, in Northern Ireland, other issues have crowded out that aspect is a chilling reminder of how far some have gone from what I suspect the individuals who live in Northern Ireland would wish to see happen. I will speak with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on these matters. Money was made available through the previous Budget settlement to try to address some of the acute issues—but, without a fully functioning Executive, it becomes difficult to target it.

The guidance which we anticipate being offered through this legislation should give greater support to the Civil Service to act in these areas, but the very fact that I am saying this confirms the view of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, which is that we are broadly moving, albeit slowly, towards direct rule by other names, which we do not want. That is not the way forward, but we must ensure, during this period, that full support is given to the Northern Ireland Civil Service to address the critical, life-dependent issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey.

This is for a period; it is time-limited and prescribed and it will end, either with a restored Executive or with something far darker. We have an opportunity now to get this right, and all must be committed to that. In the interim, the Government will continue to push as strongly as they can to ensure the delivery of the very services that are so important to the people of Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee negatived (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 18th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I echo the tributes paid to the noble Baroness, Lady Blood. She grabbed hold of me in my first week in the Northern Ireland Office—I do not mean that figuratively; I mean quite literally—took me aside and explained some issues about education, which she was most passionate about. She will be missed here but I do not doubt that her voice will continue to be heard. I also pay tribute to David Ford. He fulfilled an extraordinary role in the Assembly and did good work. His voice also must continue to be heard in the councils where his experience can be drawn on. I suspect both have long careers ahead of them where they may yet give great service to Northern Ireland.

It is not often that I get my own words repeated back to me but, again, it is a sign that I have been doing this for quite some time that my words are now being interpreted. It is in itself quite a pleasure. I am never quite sure if I did indeed say certain things but I will take them on board.

This was an extraordinarily wide-ranging debate. I think the best way I can address it is like building a jigsaw. I will start with the outside square edges and then try to build into the centre. I will begin with a very categorical statement. It is a rhetorical question. How many more times can I do this? The reality is not many. The budget that rests in Northern Ireland, and which we are moving forward today, is based on the priorities set by the outgoing Administration. However, we are moving further and further away from that particular piece of certainty. It is like pulling apart a piece of toffee. It is still holding together but it is getting more and more tenuous and it will break. We cannot extend it too far.

Some have said that nothing has changed, but actually a lot has. The people of Northern Ireland are growing weary of the situation there. Their priorities are not being acted on. We are having to interpret them—often within legally challenged constraints, with more constraints yet to come—and we are trying our best to deliver against objectives that are becoming more and more difficult to maintain and to deliver at the very time when there are greater challenges ahead.

I will come on to speak about the money within the budget, but I want to stress one other thing. It might seem an odd thing to say in the middle of a debate about the budget, but money is not everything. Money is not the whole answer to this dilemma. The reality remains that we need full scrutiny and a situation where the Civil Service is not exposed to legal challenge, where it is given the support of democratically elected politicians. We also need the nuances that are brought in when we have to interpret how money should be spent, rather than historically gazing over our shoulder at how it was once spent and how we might be able to continue to spend it.

I echo the words of many noble Lords today who said that they speak with some regret. There should be no doubt that I too speak with some regret: I have no desire to be taking forward a budget for Northern Ireland. That responsibility rests more naturally and sensibly elsewhere. I shall try to address some of the more fundamental points raised by a number of noble Lords. It is appropriate, in this week of all weeks, as we recall the violence of the past few days, to consider exactly what a struggle we are witnessing inside Northern Ireland. Many noble Lords have said today that if there is a vacuum, violence will fill it: we are seeing evidence of that again already.

I emphasise that the Government have spent a considerable sum of money. Since 2010, almost £250 million has been invested in additional security services in Northern Ireland. Since 2015, £25 million has been invested through the fresh start agreement. Would it not be great if the money did not have to be spent on those things? Think of what we could do with a quarter of a billion pounds. Yet, sensibly and necessarily, that money has been made available and will continue to be made available. On the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, about the wider legacy issue and pensions, which I know is a matter dear to the heart of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, who is of course not in his place today, we have referred this to the Victims Commissioner. We are looking for further guidance on this point, but we cannot lose time: we need to be able to move forward, so once we are in receipt of information from the Victims Commissioner we shall take that on board and move forward with it.

When we talk about the importance of re-establishing an Executive, these are matters that rest more comfortably in the devolved sphere, but in the absence of that, we cannot allow this simply to drift. I know that the word “drift” has been used by a number of noble Lords today: we cannot allow that drift to continue. In the past I have used the phrase “thinking outside the box”. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, condemned me by saying that it is not a box but a sarcophagus. From the papers over the last few days, I recall that a great, black sarcophagus has been found in the depths of Alexandria and there is a great fear of what will happen when it is opened. Will it be like some kind of Pandora’s box, when all the horrors of humanity pour forth? As I said a moment ago, I cannot keep doing this; we are at stage where change is coming. The question is what form that change will take.

The noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, put forward a number of issues, not least of which is whether there can be an independent chairman. I note that his noble friend Lord Hain has already referred a name to me in that regard. I emphasise, as I did in the past, that we cannot set aside any of these issues. A number of noble Lords asked about the evolution in Northern Ireland: what can happen next? Noble Lords will know that there are broadly three options: we are at that tripartite road. We can continue to try, as best we can, to string out that piece of toffee, hoping it does not snap in the middle: that is one option. I am the living embodiment of that today. The other options are, of course, to move towards an election, and that is certainly on the table—my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has not in any way ruled that out. The final option, of course, is direct rule. Some today have said that this budget itself represents a form of direct rule. In truth, it represents a necessary and essential step to preserve good government in Northern Ireland.

Noble Lords will be aware that we have reached a critical stage: the previous budget Bill allowed us to allocate funds—45%. We will reach the point over the summer where we will have spent those funds, and we therefore need to move forward to ensure full allocation of the total amount of money. That will be a critical reality check for the civil servants in Northern Ireland. Of those three routes, one will have to be taken: the question is when and how it will unfold. The greatest hope of all is the magic option: that each of the parties will come back together again and be able to broker a deal that will address all these issues. I note, as a slightly ironic comment, that the last time all the parties were gathered together in Belfast was at the PinkNews awards only a few weeks ago: that, in itself, is a reminder of how far many of those parties have come over the last short period.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, and many others, spoke of the importance of the court cases that are coming up, and the question of an appeal. That is being strongly and actively considered by the Northern Ireland Civil Service, which will have to move that forward. It is being actively considered by ourselves. As many noble Lords noted today, if we are found in any way not to be able to act in this regard, we will be in a very difficult position indeed. That is also true in regard to the RHI case: that would place even greater constraint upon us. We cannot be in a situation where good governance can be delivered neither by an absent Executive, nor by the UK Government in our current formation, so we will need to make progress to deliver, and to be cognisant of the realities of what those court cases will mean.

The noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Murphy of Torfaen, asked about the role of the Prime Minister. I can state today that the Prime Minister will be spending the next few days in Northern Ireland. I can also confirm that she has spent much time speaking with the parties. The point I make to noble Lords is that it is not just a question of what happens inside that room, and drawing the people into the room; it is how the individuals in the room communicate with their supporters outside the room. There is a bigger test here that we need to be able to wrestle and bring to the ground.

On the question of the supply and confidence money, the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, was quite right to stress that it does not rest in one single community; it is for all communities. Of the £1 billion total which has been set aside, £430 million will have been spent as we progress this budget Bill. Some £20 million was spent in the last period; that leaves £410 million. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, was quite right to stress that much of that money will rest inside the health spend and the education spend: that is additional spending that would not be in Northern Ireland but for the supply and confidence fund. Importantly, £10 million of that is for mental health issues. It is also important to stress that, as a consequence of the Prime Minister’s commitment to funding for the NHS, there will be a significant Barnett consequential uplift in Northern Ireland—a figure, I imagine, of around £760 million, if my maths is correct, during the period 2023-24. That is jam tomorrow, not jam today, but it represents a significant investment of money which I hope will be available for health in Northern Ireland.

On the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, the Government have made funds available for the accommodation and housing of refugees and refugee children in Northern Ireland. If the noble Lord will allow, I will write to him in greater detail, to make sure he has all the information he is looking for. I am also very cognisant of the importance of integrated education. It is important for me to stress that that is, of course, a devolved matter and one which I hope will be able to be progressed. I suspect that if the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, is taking some time off from here, she may well wrestle some of these issues to the ground in Northern Ireland—she will be welcome there, I hope. We are supportive of the idea of an integrated educational approach in Northern Ireland, cognisant of the devolution settlement itself.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, continues to ask me challenging questions, to which I do not always have appropriate answers. To take up some of his points, we cannot right now place upon the shoulders of civil servants the pressures they have had to withstand—the two impending court cases and appeals stand testimony to that—and we must therefore move forward with a new way of thinking. I am conscious, as he rightly points out, that civil servants are conservative—with a small C—and that is why we end up with very cautious spending, rather than the spending that elected representatives might be willing to embrace. I am conscious that we need to make sure that we are in a position where the realities of the challenges in Northern Ireland are dealt with.

I was struck by the note raised in the debate by the noble Lord, Lord Bew: the demographic time-bomb which many of the home nations are wrestling with is not actually the same challenge in Northern Ireland. I would be fascinated to understand more about that. I am going to do my own investigations to understand more about exactly how that will work in practice. In so recognising, it therefore means that the solutions to the challenges of Northern Ireland cannot be taken from a textbook. They need to be tailored to the situation that we witness.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, took us again into the back story that brings us to the point we have reached. It is a reminder that many of the challenges that we face today have a lengthier pedigree. Importantly, the noble Lord stresses the value to the communities of Northern Ireland of this additional supply and confidence money. We need to make sure, however, that that money can be spent. There will come points when we cannot, by our current methodology, create funding proprieties to spend all of the money. It simply will not be deliverable under our current arrangements so, although the £1 billion will remain an important sum of money, unless we can make some serious progress, it will remain at least partially underspent.

As to where the money that has not yet been spent is, I do not think it rests in a big bank account somewhere, but it might do. The reality is that it is money that is fully available to the communities of Northern Ireland, which will be spent delivering the very good work that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, stressed throughout his speech. It is important to remember that that money can indeed do good things. Making sure that we can spend it will be the ultimate test.

The noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, raised a number of technical points about how we could move things forward. I admire the points that were being raised and I recognise that, if we could do them, we would make some progress. I fear that the first step in that process is a challenging one—how we get from where we are to delivering against them. We need to be in a situation soon, however, where a lot of these issues are addressed, I would hope, by an incoming, re-established, sustainable Executive. We need to be conscious that this is a necessary step.

The spending of monies will continue to be scrutinised, as it has been before, by the various bodies that are responsible for auditing in Northern Ireland. Those figures and reports are made public and I will ensure that, when they are published, a note of that publication is registered with your Lordships to make sure that they are fully aware of them.

I note with some curiosity the question of libel law reform from the noble Lord, Lord Bew. I would like to learn more of that, so I am going to invert tradition and ask him to write to me, so that I can learn more about what he had in mind. He was also correct in stressing the importance of how information can be used and misused. He was absolutely correct when he was talking about the checks around the Irish border. We need to be clear that we are not talking about a borderless border; there are still realities that interface between Northern Ireland and Ireland itself—or, as the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, would say, the Republic of Ireland—depending on how they touch together. The purpose of the British-Irish Council is to deal with east-west issues. That is its principal purpose and what it should continue to do, within the context of the Good Friday agreement.

The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, carefully raised the issue of abortion and wider abortion services. He also gave me an opportunity to write to him, and I will take him up on that kind offer. That is more appropriate, so that I can be absolutely clear what the answers are and make sure that I am not short-changing him in any way. I note again that the figures quoted are serious contributions to Northern Ireland financially, and that they stem from the passing of this particular budget Bill.

I conclude with the remarks of “Direct Ruler Murphy”, or the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. I like it as a term although I recognise exactly what it means. I hope there is a recognition that we are not going to shirk responsibilities. We have not been successful in delivering what needs to be delivered. There is enough blame to rest upon a number of shoulders, and we do not claim ownership rights over all of it. We will, however, need to make progress. I am not invoking the sarcophagus of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, but rather the needful elements that we must embrace; in the next few months each of the issues raised by the noble Lord will have to be seriously considered. We cannot continue to move forward on the basis that we have established so far. It is now without the underpinnings to give it the confidence of the people of Northern Ireland or, indeed, wider democratic confidence itself.

[Lord Empey]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but he goes back to his analogy in his three-way split: the current position, direct rule or a restoration of devolution. That worries me, because it does not introduce any new thinking. The answer in the short term will have to be somewhere between those different options. I was hoping to hear that there would be a look at options, whatever they might be, before we close all those doors. I raised a question about police pay and the Hart inquiry. Perhaps the noble Lord would write to me on those matters.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord for this intervention. We have not reached a fork in the road; technically, we have reached a trident in the road as there are three options. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, we must find new ways to travel along those roads. There need to be new ways of thinking about this so I cannot, in good conscience, rule out any of the issues that I believe the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has brought to the debate today. Each of those may yet play its part and will have to do so sooner than might have been the case had we not been where we stand right now, cognisant of the challenges of delivering this budget within the timescale that we have. I am very aware of that.

I am aware that policing is a devolved matter, but it deserves a greater response than trying to swipe it away with that statement. I will again take the opportunity to write to the noble Lord and give a fuller answer.

A number of noble Lords raised the question of MLA pay. In short order, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will be addressing that matter. It is time to do that.

In finally responding to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, I am aware and pleased that he is able to support the necessary steps, recognising that it is what it is, which is necessary. The measure is short and technical, but it also recognises that we do not wish to be where we are. That is something I am very conscious of. I have no desire to stand here and do this again, fun though it is.

I am going to slightly change the tone of the debate, because that might be useful. Many noble Lords will know one of the poets of Northern Ireland whose name is Carol Rumens. She wrote “Prayer for Belfast” and I am going to read it, because it is perhaps apropos today:

“Night, be starry-sensed for her,

Your bitter frost be fleece to her.

Comb the vale, slow mist, for her.

Lough, be a muscle, tensed for her.

And coals, the only fire in her,

And rain, the only news of her.

Small hills, keep sisters’ eyes on her.

Be reticent, desire for her.

Go, stories, leave the breath in her,

The last word to be said by her,

And leave no heart for dead in her.

Steer this ship of dread from her.

No husband lift a hand to her,

No daughter shut the blind on her.

May sails be sewn, seeds grown, for her.

May every kiss be kind to her”.

Northern Ireland: Devolved Institutions

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Wednesday 23rd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

It is our single most important priority to re-establish the Executive and Her Majesty’s Government are doing all they can to achieve that end. We pay tribute to those civil servants who have carried a much heavier burden than they would have anticipated, but our single most important priority remains to secure a functioning and sustainable Executive.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

Is my noble friend aware that, in the High Court last Monday, Mrs Justice Keegan decided that a senior civil servant did not have the authority to sign off on the construction of a waste plant? As a consequence, all significant decisions hitherto taken by senior civil servants have now stopped. How can the Minister and the Government honour their commitments to ensure the effective and efficient delivery of public services to the people of Northern Ireland with the state of paralysis that has now ensued?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The Government are studying that judgment very carefully. Its implications are significant; indeed, an appeal against it may be lodged. It is a reminder that we need a restored Executive because we cannot keep placing on the shoulders of civil servants such a heavy and onerous burden.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, who makes his point clear, as always. I understand exactly what he is saying.

On that basis, I hope your Lordships will accept that this is not what we want to do, it is not how we want to do it and it is not when we want to do it, but it is what we must do.

[Lord Empey]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I ask him to reflect on the Judge Hart inquiry. If I picked up him correctly, he indicated that this would await the return of an Executive. I point out to him that every solitary MLA I am aware of supports the implementation of that inquiry. Other parties represented here can say no if they disagree. Every party supports it. Some of the material in the report is very harrowing. One lady started off in the system at four years old. She is now 87. How much more do we have to put these people through? I therefore ask the Minister to discuss with his colleagues and reflect on that.

Secondly, on the RHI scheme, although I appreciate that this is a renewal, it was originally based on no substantive information. I suggest that the Minister again consult his colleagues and ensure that a proper working party is established to alleviate this, because people are losing their livelihoods as a result of this botched scheme.

Northern Ireland Finances

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. Money allocated and unspent does not do any good. It is as simple as that. We must be in a position to ensure that the money allocated is spent. We believe this is best achieved through the departmental structure that exists in Northern Ireland. The determination of the overall scale of spend has already been achieved through direct consultation with civil servants in Northern Ireland. They will be responsible also for the delivery of that money into the various, clearly set out projects. It will be necessary not only for the money to be spent but for it to be transparent and clear. The people of Northern Ireland must be able to see that and recognise what good the money is doing to meet challenges that are now well established and well recognised. The noble Baroness will be aware of several of these challenges in the areas of health and education. But I stress again that the money and responsibility will rest with the departments. We will ensure that it is spent in a transparent manner that will give confidence to those who see the money and, hopefully, see the good it will achieve.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, surely the Minister accepts that there is a need to do things differently. We have come to a series of Statements of this nature over the last 14 months and there is little or no prospect of any immediate resumption of devolution. In fact, people are now talking in terms of “post Brexit”. Members will know the effect of a vacuum in Northern Ireland and who is likely to fill that vacuum—and it is not going to be the good guys. The reality is that the principal parties of government—whatever the ebb and flow of the agreement that never was—have run the institutions into the ground. That is the fact. Mention has been made of confidence and supply money. Will the Minister tell us when this will be approved by Parliament? At the moment it is effectively an undated cheque, and the departments need to know when they will be able to take it into account.

A second point raised concerned the RHI cap. While that catastrophe has yet to completely unfold, a lot of people out there legitimately took the Government of Northern Ireland at their word and got these boilers installed, and some are now facing financial ruin. Their bankers were encouraged by ministerial letters from Mrs Foster to lend them money to get these boilers, and now the premiums they were getting on the original business plan have been slashed. So those people are in severe difficulty and I ask the Minister to bear that in mind.

I turn to the alternative arrangements, which I think we were all interested in. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, who I think is the first senior politician even to hint that some tweaks and changes made over the years have not necessarily worked out as planned. Can the Minister tell us exactly to what extent the Government have an open mind on these matters? There are a lot of ideas around the House that could be fashioned and used, and I believe we are willing and able to help in working towards a constructive solution—but I repeat that a vacuum is the worst possible situation. It leaves the pitch open for players to come back on when we thought we had them suppressed. This is a golden opportunity for these people and we should all stand up against them.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has made three useful points. I note again that the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, spoke about the fact that there are a number of architects of the Belfast agreement in your Lordships’ House—although in some respects they are not architects but mechanics. We have not built an edifice that just has to stand; it is an engine that has to work.

In response to the third point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, we have an open mind and we need to think afresh about anything that can help us to move this matter forward. Of course, we recognise that we are facilitators of the dialogue. We cannot insist on or thrust forward what we wish to see happen—but we hope that, by providing a safe space in which to negotiate, we can bring it about.

In response to the noble Lord’s first question, the confidence and supply component of the budget will be dealt with as part of the overall allocation. As I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, that is imminent—so I hope we will be in a position to discuss that seriously very soon.

With regard to the wider question of boilers and the RHI scheme, I stress again that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is very aware of the challenges that it represents and will be very careful in taking the matter forward.

Northern Ireland Update

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hay, for his intervention. It is in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland that we achieve good government. Now more than ever, good government will be delivered by devolution—by a functioning Executive—but at heart it will have to be delivered for Northern Ireland no matter what happens, because we cannot keep kicking the can down the road. The three-stranded approach will be at the heart of our ongoing discussions with all parties, but I am happy to confirm to the noble Lord that no joint approach to the administration of government between the United Kingdom and Ireland is on the cards.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, talked about transparency. We have a “she said/she said” argument at home over what was and was not on the table, which I believe will be settled only when those documents are in the public domain. I seem to recall the late Lord Bannside talking many times about secret documents; well, now there is a chance to make secret documents public. Let us see what was on the table.

The Minister said in his Statement:

“First, as our manifesto at the last election set out, this Government believe in devolution under the terms of the 1998 Belfast Agreement”.


No, they do not, because the terms of the 1998 Belfast agreement are not what we have today. It was butchered in 2006 when the guts were taken out of it, after years of negotiation. The partnership at the centre of that Government, with each community having its hand on the steering wheel and the First and Deputy First Minister being identified jointly in the Assembly by a vote of the elected Members, was torn out to suit two parties, neither of which negotiated their part of the agreement in the first place. If the Minister is thinking outside the box and nothing is off the table, may I put back on to the table the 1998 Belfast agreement, as it was voted on by 71.2% in the north and over 90% in the Republic? If we are leaving the European Union on the basis of 52%, in all fairness we are entitled to have the vote that we made honoured and implemented as it was voted on in 1998.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, makes a very forceful intervention. The details of the discussions that took place between the two principal interlocutors will not be made public. At present the parties agree that, were they to be made public, they might continue to prolong the challenges that they face in trying to secure ongoing agreement. We will honour that approach.

On the broader question of the Belfast agreement and its successor agreements, at their heart is, I hope, a recognition of respect from all the participants—not just the two principal parties but the other parties in Northern Ireland as well. That is why my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, in her ongoing dialogue with the two principal parties, recognises very clearly that there are others to be taken into account when we make these positions clear. I hope—I desperately hope—that we can make progress going forward and work on a basis of respect. With the good will that I know exists across Northern Ireland, the urgency brought about by Brexit and the reality of the challenges faced by the various communities in Northern Ireland—whether that be on the economy, education or health—this is the time to deliver an Executive, now more than ever.

Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

We want to make sure that a no-detriment principle is adopted throughout, so there should be no impact on parts of the United Kingdom as a consequence of this which would have to be met by those who are affected by it.

It is important to note the other issues that we need to be very clear about. The British Transport Police is a specialist constabulary, not a traditional one. It focuses on particular aspects of enforcement which are important and cannot simply be substituted by officers from other traditional constabularies. We must not lose sight of that. Any risk that there may be flight from the particular integrated elements would in itself be a problem for the overall functioning of transport policing in Scotland. There can be no diminution in the quality of the service. We also have to recognise that throughout this area there is an issue of being respectful to the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament itself, through the Smith commission and onwards, is the principal interlocutor in addressing this matter. We cannot lose sight of that fact because it is also important.

Perhaps I may be a little more bold and say that in some respects this is one of those issues where one can see the difference between a unicameral and a bicameral Parliament. Perhaps if the Scottish Parliament had a second Chamber, some of these matters might have been addressed in a slightly different way. However, that might be a little bit provocative.

Let me conclude with a quotation which I am sure will be familiar to noble Lords, but perhaps they do not necessarily know its source. When I say the name Thomas Bertram Lance, I suspect that there will be blank stares. He was the director of the Office of Management and Budget in Jimmy Carter’s presidential Administration. In 1977 he coined the maxim,

“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.


In some respects, we should always recognise the importance of that particular dictum. However, I should stress that that conclusion must be determined by the Scottish Parliament as a matter of course. It is that Parliament’s responsibility to hold to account the Scottish Government, who have moved this matter forward.

I appreciate that I have not had time to touch on all the issues raised in the debate but I hope that I have been able to give the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, some comfort in my remarks so that he will not be regretful and therefore not press his amendment to the Motion. I hope that this has been a satisfactory response to our debate.

[Lord Empey]

Perhaps I may raise one point with the noble Lord. Where is the national interest in all of this? The Scottish Parliament cannot reflect it. A programme board is made up of two halves, one half of which is the Scottish Parliament and the other the UK Government. That board cannot have a national responsibility because it is made up of one part which does not have such a responsibility. My concern in all this is that the national security interest is going to fall between two stools. I would like an assurance from the Minister that that is not the case.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I believe that I can give that assurance. The very fact that the comments made in this debate shall be summarised and transmitted very clearly to the programme board means that the views of noble Lords will not be lost. I also believe that those views represent the entire breadth of concern expressed, certainly in this instance throughout Scotland but also beyond. That must be reflected on by all those who take as their responsibility the forward movement of the British Transport Police and its future policing policy.