EU: UK Membership

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, perhaps I may take the opportunity to congratulate the noble Baroness on her incisive and informative maiden speech. I am certain that her knowledge of European affairs will not go unused in this House as Europe is one of the subjects that has the capacity to get the blood flowing in the veins of your Lordships—as they may have noticed already. The noble Baroness enjoys a distinguished academic career. Having studied at both Brasenose College and St Antony’s, Oxford, she now holds the significant post of director of the European Centre at the University of Cambridge. Lecturing in international relations allows the noble Baroness to bring contemporary knowledge to your Lordships’ House for the many debates and discussions we have on this subject, and today is no exception.

The noble Baroness has two more distinctions that I wish to mention. She is the seventh “Smith” to be a current Member of this House, and I can assure her that she is in very distinguished company. She is also a serving city councillor in Cambridge, and as a former city councillor myself, I welcome the expertise that local representatives add to our deliberations. I have absolutely no doubt that the noble Baroness will bring her widespread experience at the local government level to our debates as well. We wish her good fortune as she branches out on a new and, I hope, rewarding part of her career.

I turn now to the debate secured for this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. I always listen carefully to his contributions, but I must say that I was somewhat dispirited by his passionate promotion of the objective without any apparent recognition of the collateral damage that the passage of time has done to the initial ideal. Anyone who was around at the end of the war could not but have realised that things had to change. Europe had been laid waste in the 20th century and our predecessors naturally had the instinct to do something to ensure that it did not happen again. To a very large extent, that particular objective of our predecessors has, so far and thank God, been achieved.

However, the EU is like any bureaucratic organisation —something to which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has just alluded. When we initially entered into the relationship, we were dealing with six nations of a very similar nature to our own. They were close by, they were developed countries, and there were a lot of similarities. The European Union of today is a totally different creature. It is vast in its expansion and the differences between one nation and another have grown dramatically, so the idea that you can simply apply the same rules today that were applied at the EU’s initiation is just not realistic. It is like applying the same rules to trains when they were steam driven as we do to our modern electric ones; it does not work. The disparity between the nations is such that what we are actually doing is taking young and perhaps qualified people out of the underdeveloped parts of the Union and bringing them here and to other developed countries. That cannot be consistent with the objective of levelling everyone up instead of levelling them down.

My anxiety is that to dismiss, as some seem to be doing, the vast movement of populations that has taken place—millions of people, not thousands—and to imagine that that has had no significant impact on the ordinary people of this country is totally unrealistic. I think that that attitude is the recruiting sergeant for the UKIPs of this world. It is what encourages them and helps them to gain ground. Let us look at some recent elections. Those who stood on a solidly pro-European platform have been almost obliterated. If we genuinely want co-operation—I want to see co-operation between the peoples of the European Union—it has to be done in a way that brings the people along with it. It should not be a source of division. If we want it to work, it should be a source of pride and achievement. But this country has a vast deficit with the rest of the European Union. We have hitched our wagon to a star that unfortunately is not rising at the moment because the European Union economy is stagnant and is becoming a smaller and smaller proportion of our trade. Sadly, when this country joined the European Union, we treated our former trading partners such as New Zealand and the Caribbean countries shamefully. We swept them aside overnight, and that is a source of worry for me.

My final point is this. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, must reflect on the fact that last week his own party spokes -person, the shadow Home Secretary, made a speech about immigration in the other place. But she must remember that she was part of a Government who took the decision to allow free and open access to this country by the accession countries. That fuelled massive levels of immigration that we have not been able fully to absorb. If you fill a place up, what happens is that services become pressurised, and that starts agitation. We can see it happening in other countries. Marine Le Pen did not exist as a political force a number of years ago, and yet it is clear that in her party and others throughout the European Union there are the stirrings of the very forces which led us to the position in which we ended up in 1939-40. This debate has to be treated seriously. We cannot dismiss the concerns of the people in an arrogant fashion. We have to listen and realise that there is a problem, and we should put our minds to how to resolve it.

Libya: Arms to the IRA

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Empey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to discuss with the Government of Libya the question of compensation for United Kingdom victims of arms supplied to the IRA by the Gaddafi regime.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government will continue to encourage the Libyan Government to engage with UK victims seeking redress, including those seeking compensation and their legal representatives. More broadly, we will continue to promote wide and lasting reconciliation between Libya and UK communities affected by Gaddafi-sponsored terrorism. We have raised these issues with the Libyan Government repeatedly and the Prime Minister, my right honourable friend Mr Cameron, raised this most recently with the Libyan Prime Minister in September last year.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, on 15 November 2011, the Prime Minister wrote to me, saying:

“As I told the House of Commons on 5 September, the issue of compensation for UK victims of IRA terrorism will be an important priority for a revitalised relationship between Britain and the new Libyan authorities”.

The noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, in a Written Answer to my Question HL4664, said, on 22 January this year:

“The Government is not involved in any negotiations with the Libyan government on securing compensation payments for the British victims of Qadhafi sponsored Irish Republican Army (IRA) terrorism”.—[Official Report, 22/01/2014; col. WA 136.]

The noble Baroness will see at once that there is a contradiction between the position of the Prime Minister and that adopted in her Written Answer to me. Will she assure the House that Her Majesty’s Government will vigorously pursue this issue with the new Libyan authorities to seek redress for the many hundreds and thousands of victims of this terrorism throughout the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Warsi]

I thank the noble Lord for having given me the opportunity to discuss the matter with him briefly yesterday. I know that he has been involved in this matter for much longer than I have. As he is aware, the Minister with responsibility for Libya has written to him, informing him that we are currently assessing all these matters, including the very specific ones to which he referred. I was involved in discussions on this matter earlier this week. I assure him that we will write to him in due course to provide much more clarity on the issue. The Government’s position has been, and will continue to be, that we want to develop a sustainable and effective partnership with Libya to enable us to resolve all issues, including that of the horrendous terrorism which resulted in huge tragedy for individual families.

Small and Medium-Sized Enterprises

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley, for the courtesy and patience which he exhibited in great measure throughout the Select Committee’s work. It was the first opportunity that I have had to be on a Select Committee in your Lordships’ House and it was a thoroughly enjoyable experience. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cope, for his consideration. We were also extremely well served by a very active and dedicated staff. As has been pointed out, due to the accidents that we seemed to attract, there was a sense of embattlement as we came towards the preparation of the report. Members of the committee and staff seemed to be dropping like flies. However, they all rallied round—even from hospital beds—to produce the report. That indicates their commitment. I would also point out that, as I am sure all noble Lords will know, nobody puts words into the mouth of the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. What he says, he says for himself.

I should like to touch briefly on the finance from a slightly different point of view. As was said by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, there are two sides to this story. I was recently invited to chair a meeting of a business forum in London. A representative of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales was present and we looked at alternative sources of finance. In this country we are heavily dependent on bank finance, which accounts for about two-thirds. However, that is not the case in other countries, such as the United States. We now have things such as Funding Circle and peer-to-peer lending, and new opportunities are out there.

What struck me most on that occasion was a story relayed by the accountants. They had carried out a survey of SMEs, asking them how much preparation they did before putting a business case to their banker. The average answer was two days. I was shocked by that. The fact is that banks should not agree to all applications from SMEs, and in fact that is part of the reason we got into difficulties ourselves. I remember being in business and paying at one stage an interest rate of 22.5% on business loans. Can one imagine what would happen in this country if interest rates began to rise to any extent? We have been living in a fool’s paradise, believing that you can have money for next to nothing. It is not going to be like that for ever. SMEs must sharpen up their act. No matter who you are, putting a business case together in such a short space of time is totally unrealistic and, in fact, reckless.

As was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Cope, we were shocked by the statistics given to us by UK Export Finance. Of course, most of the work that it was doing when it came to see us in the summer of last year was for Rolls-Royce and BAE, which we fully understand. When we pressed the organisation, we discovered that at the time it was helping 17 SMEs. I know that since then it has appointed regional representatives, and it is widening its scope and trying to make its services more available. However, I would be very interested if the Minister could update us on how that process is going. Are the regional representatives settling down? Are they actually helping to deliver the growth that we all want?

The other area I want to mention is training. The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, gave us a very interesting speech on language. The committee heard a lot about that, and I think we have lots of lessons to learn there. However, other qualifications are necessary, over and above language. I declare a non-pecuniary interest as a vice-president of the Institute of Export, a charity which was established in 1935. It is the only professional body in the United Kingdom offering recognised, formal qualifications in international trade. It seems to me that if you are going to drive a car, you get a lesson in how to drive. If you are going to become a mechanic, you learn and you serve and you become a mechanic. If you are going to export, why should it be any different? Why should you not learn the ropes? Why do you not get qualifications in it? Why do you not learn what is involved in international trade? Having that knowledge enables you to avoid many of the pitfalls. These qualifications are recognised by Ofqual, and they are not hugely expensive. There are short courses, and they can be done by distance learning.

It is essential to have that basic skill as taking on exports can be a very difficult business. People are afraid of not getting paid and they do not know the customs in a local area. As the noble Lord, Lord Cope, pointed out in his opening remarks, with the change in the population mix in this country, people came to the committee to offer their services, because they had connections in some of our future key markets. There are people living in this country who are dedicated to doing business and we are not actually using that expertise which is on our own doorstep. We need to ensure that people get these qualifications.

The whole business ethos and the culture in this country have been anti-business for a number of years. I know the Minister has tried very hard during his term of office to change people’s minds about that. At the end of the day, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, it is true that we have a huge trade deficit, but a country which is economically weak is weak from a defence point of view, is weak from an international point of view and is weak from an influence point of view. We need to get that message to our schools and get mums and dads to say, “Well, there could be career opportunities here”. I think it is a matter of drawing all those things together.

I would like the Minister to tell me what progress has been made with UK Export Finance, and what advice he and the Government would give on trying to promote the acquisition of suitable international trade qualifications. This would ensure that when people in SMEs knock on the door they have the expertise and they know what a customer is. That knowledge is somewhat lacking in this country. I have often felt that we have to readjust, because we should be an outward-looking nation. We can survive only if we can trade and move in and out, keeping our inlets and our outlets open. We will succeed only if that is ingrained in people at a much earlier stage throughout the education system.

European Union: Recent Developments

Lord Empey Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, with regard to the two pieces of legislation before us this evening, I often wonder whether the European Union is getting too large to manage. That concern applies to those current practitioners who are in Brussels on a regular basis. With regard to the Irish protocols, I would draw the attention of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, to the fact that these exceptions were brought in to persuade the Irish electorate to support the recent treaty—as the Minister conceded. To some extent, the Irish received the assurances lest they go and vote against the proposals; to some extent they were rewarded, therefore, for their opposition.

When we discuss Europe in your Lordships’ House, I often think that the wisdom of Solomon would be insufficient to allow one to navigate through the different processes and views. However, I want to mention one thing—the general rhetoric around Europe at the moment. The front pages of the press scream various things from time to time about what is wrong in Europe or what Europe is doing to this country, but they do not trace back from that point to why these things are being done. These things are being done because successive Governments and Parliaments have agreed to them. The European Commission has not come here and stolen the powers that it has taken away—we have agreed to these things, in our wisdom or otherwise. Successive Governments have put their hands up for them, voted at 4.30 am and done all that they do in these summits. When it was given the opportunity—which was rarely, it has to be said—this Parliament agreed to them. So when the headlines scream and we wish for someone to blame—those to blame are the people who agreed to these things. Europe is not stealing anything from this country; we gave it. When someone is given a power, we can hardly claim shock or horror when it is exercised. The blame, if you like, for where we are today is our own.

The last time people had an opportunity to have a say—when we started off in the European Union—they voted for the Common Market. My worry is this: there are certain things that it is common sense to do collectively. I cannot imagine what it must have been like for the generations that witnessed the wars and the horror in Europe; it is obvious that people would have wanted to avoid repetition of that. In addition, there is a whole range of things—the environment, air quality—where it is sensible to work collectively with your neighbours. There is nothing wrong with that. The fundamental dishonesty underlying all this, however, is that there are two thought processes here. One process looks to the market and wants to follow the open market as the main reason for doing all this. There is another, federalist group, which believes in a Eurostate. That is a perfectly legitimate thing to believe in. However, there is a fundamental dishonesty, which led to the euro crisis, because countries that were never fit for it were admitted to that currency. Indeed, even the Germans and the French broke the rules. Germany was able to recapitalise at interest rates that were entirely suitable for it, but were the ruin of some of the other eurozone countries. There is this fundamental tension. It is dishonest, because we are sitting, allegedly, among partners at the table, some of whom are plotting in another direction from ourselves. This needs to be opened out into a proper and honest debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle—in a bravura performance—said that his job was to challenge the Government and see what they actually were doing. He did not burden us with enlightenment as to his own party’s position, but it seems to be in a swither and I do not know how it will end up. However, there is another thing: we undermine public confidence in the European Union in this country by pretending that things are not happening. For instance, on immigration, I asked a number of recent Written Questions. I was told that we do not routinely assess the likely number of people who will come to this country. Why not? How can it possibly be that a Government are not assessing as significant a thing as that? It is this fear of discussing something hugely significant, such as the importation of large numbers of people—as if that will not have an impact on our community—and things like that, which is undermining people’s trust. As the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, we have to have a completely new debate with new ground rules, which has to be open and honest.

Above all, the fundamental fault line is whether we want ultimately to go to a federalist solution with a state, having already started to put some of those institutions— such as the presidency and the nonsense of a foreign affairs service—into place, or whether we are a trade body with bits added on. We need to solve that. However, regarding the rhetoric about how awful Brussels is, which has been in the press for years and which not only this Government but others are now taking up, your Lordships should bear in mind that Brussels does what we have allowed it to do.

We need a complete rethink. We have the re-emergence in some of the southern European states of fascist parties, and we have countries such as Spain with 25% unemployment and more than 50% youth unemployment. Can your Lordships imagine what this House and the other place would be like if we had those figures? That is not the sustainable basis for democracy in the long run. I wonder whether, in order to pursue this dream that some people have, we are pushing some of these countries towards destruction by insisting on this. We need an open, honest debate but the first people who we have to be honest with are ourselves because we have agreed to all the powers that Brussels is exercising.

Middle East: Recent Developments

Lord Empey Excerpts

Friday 13th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for providing the opportunity for this debate. Like the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, I feel that the canvas is so broad that one cannot possibly cover it all. Therefore, I shall confine my remarks to just two areas. One is the spread of democracy in the region. It will be of little surprise to the Minister that I also wish to raise Libya and related matters.

I suppose no area of the world has undergone greater change in the past 12 months than the Middle East, starting with Tunisia, through Egypt, Libya and the turmoil in Syria, which has been referred to. Some say that the Arab spring was a new awakening. Some say that it was an inevitable consequence of many decades of suppression of human rights and democracy by various dictators. Perhaps the West’s relationship with some of those dictators is something that we now regret, but that is life.

Whatever the truth, the outcome of the Arab spring far from clear. The early warm welcome from western Governments has given way to some anxiety as radical Islamists begin to flex their muscles at the polls, as we saw only a week or two ago. What will the implications of the Egyptian election results be for the Arab-Israeli conflict? Will the conflict between the Egyptian army and the new President be resolved peacefully? We now await the identification of a new Libyan Government, following elections there last week. The Minister recounted a very moving illustration of what had happened in Libya in such a short time. We must remember that a year ago our aircraft were flying over that country in a major bombing campaign.

However, there is one thing that the West must learn. While it is right to encourage the spread of democratic government and help to end oppression, we must not assume that our model of democracy is the only version that should be adopted by other nations with different cultures and traditions. Are we really saying that the goings-on in this Building in the past week represent the gold standard for emerging democracies? Perhaps we should remember that we could appear arrogant if we dismiss other versions of democracy. The main thing is to see that the local people in those countries are able to participate fully in their own government and are not dictated to or terrorised at gunpoint. In general, the West comes across as a bit arrogant in promoting its particular version of democracy when there may be others.

I move on to a matter in which I take a keen interest, as the Minister knows; namely, the campaign for compensation for United Kingdom victims of IRA violence perpetrated using weapons supplied by the former Libyan regime. Gaddafi decided to launch a campaign against the United Kingdom and supplied boatloads of weapons to the IRA in the 1970s and 1980s. There is evidence that he was at it again as recently as last year, when he tried to help dissident republicans financially. I know that the Government have made strong representations to the transitional authorities in Libya about such incidents as the shooting of PC Yvonne Fletcher, the Al-Megrahi case and, in general, about compensation for victims in this country of Gaddafi-supplied weapons.

The Minister also kindly arranged for me to meet his officials who deal specifically with Libya and has written to me on several occasions. However, I want to put one matter to him: I still feel that there is a lack of clarity in government policy on this issue. In his most recent letter to me, dated 8 June, the Minister said:

“The government remains absolutely committed to working with the new Libyan authorities to help address the crimes of the Qadhafi regime”.

Having spoken to his officials, I know that that is indeed what they want to do; they are talking regularly. We understand that in a country that has had vast swathes of its infrastructure destroyed and does not even have a solid central Government, it is very difficult to get precise agreement, particularly as we are awaiting, in the next year or so, the installation of a democratically elected Government under a new constitution, which will be drawn up over the next 12 months.

On the other hand, the Minister went on to say that the Government felt that individual compensation claims were best pursued on a private basis and that the Foreign Office will offer facilitation and support to campaigns seeking compensation. Therefore, I have some difficulty in understanding how you can argue that we are having a Government-to-Government negotiation on the wider issue of how this matter should be resolved. I support that and believe it to be a national issue since it was a terrorist campaign against all of the United Kingdom and people in all parts of it suffered. However, a conflict arises if you then say that you will support and facilitate private cases. That seems a disjointed policy. If private cases go on, it does not mean that every victim will get compensation or that every victim will apply for compensation. I support the national Government in negotiating with the Libyans at government level, but I do not understand how there can be a second tier at individual level that will, by definition, be haphazard and uncontrolled. I hope the Minister will address that matter.

I also believe strongly that it will not necessarily be as simple as expecting Libyans to write cheques to a series of individuals in this country. It may be that we will have to look at other means, be that through trade or some other mechanism by which we can help each other. It will be very hard to persuade elected representatives in Libya, with their infrastructure devastated, suddenly to support measures that would give their money to people in this country for something which, in fairness, the average Libyan had nothing to do with. We understand that it will not be simple but the Government must have a clear policy, which should be that we negotiate nation-to-nation, come up with solutions and try to implement them. I am not convinced that running a parallel policy of ad hoc applications for compensation from individual clients is necessarily right. There might also be a risk of certain individual victims being exploited by people who will take claims for fee purposes, whether there is any possibility of success or not.

I hope that the Government will address those two issues and I thank the Minister again for the opportunity to have this debate.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, the nature of the debate today has drawn to our attention the great significance and importance of the issues we are discussing. While the Bill’s Second Reading was never going to be confined to the minutiae of the legislation, it was always going to be a platform for discussion on the wider issues, and so it has turned out.

Never in my lifetime have I heard so many people express real fear and concern as I have with the turn of events in the euro area. People are genuinely afraid—as we have seen particularly in Greece, but in other countries as well—that the resources which they have built up over years will be taken away. As I understand it, that was exactly the circumstances that pertained in pre-Nazi Germany when people saw their lifetime’s effort dissolve before their eyes as they had to wheel their savings to the bus in suitcases and handcarts simply to pay the fare. If this is so fanciful, how is it that we have 21 Nazis elected to the Greek Parliament? These people are not disguising what they are. The very badges that they wear, their symbols, although not the same colour as that used by the National Socialists in Germany, are basically the same thing. They are unashamed. These people are succeeding in a nation that was occupied by the Germans in the Second World War. So if alarm bells are not sounding somewhere in those circumstances, when will they?

On many previous occasions we could convincingly say that it was nothing to do with us. We cannot say that today. Whatever happens in euroland will impact directly on every household in this country. Nobody will escape if the financial situation deteriorates in the eurozone. Our exporters will be hurt. Perhaps above all, there is a feeling of lingering doubt about the real state of many financial institutions on mainland Europe.

I understand the rationale for the Bill, given the events of May 2010 and the creation of the EFSM. It seeks to limit our national liabilities should the political understandings about its further use not be honoured. However, few of us believe that it is as simple as that. Whether through the front door, which is now the ESM, or the back door, whether that be the IMF or the ECB, the search for a change in the status quo will continue to elude Europe. Sticking plaster will not work; there is a fundamental flaw in the eurozone as it is currently established. Continuing political weakness in the eurozone only adds to the risk. The political timetable ticks on for Chancellor Merkel as she surveys a recent spate of election results within her own country and without. The message from these polls is the same—people have reached and gone beyond their level of tolerance for austerity, whether it is justified or not. Those with the sweeter medicine to offer are winning, while those with the more realistic and justified difficult decisions to take are losing.

However, I have little sympathy for the position that Germany now finds itself in. Chancellor Merkel’s predecessors knew of the risks that were being taken when Germany agreed to let countries such as Greece and other European economies into the euro. Subsequently, they all broke the rules at one time or another. While I have grave concern for the Greek people, the truth is that their Government were profligate in their spending on a bloated public sector in particular, and lied about the state of their economy. But the blame game is not going to change things. We have to deal with the present and, because the UK is so inextricably linked to the fate of the eurozone, it is definitely in our interests that the present mess is cleaned up.

I listened with some concern to the intervention made by the noble Lord, Lord Radice, when he indicated that perhaps we should at this stage make further financial transfers to the eurozone. I do not know what he hears from the people, but I think that that message would be a very hard sell. I understand his rationale; yes, we have partners and want to work together. But when we are not able to pay our own bills as we would like and when our own debt continues to rise and will do so for several years to come, I fear that that will be a very difficult sell. Yes, I know we have heard talk about influence before. Are we going to be marginalised? We are one of the best customers of the countries of mainland Europe. That is where one gets a lot of one’s influence. If we were so influential, why was the euro established? That indicates that even at that stage the people who took the decision had a totally different agenda, as the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, said—and we all know what it is. I say “is” and not “was” because the agenda is still there.

Whether we discuss German-backed Eurobonds—I guess that we will talk about that tonight—or an orderly Greek withdrawal from the euro, we have an overwhelming interest in our European partners’ successfully resolving this crisis. This Bill is but one small contribution to that process. It is a tidying-up exercise. Following the passage of the European Union Act 2011, we are at least getting to review significant decisions for the first time.

Would it be possible to ask those in key positions of responsibility for our finances both nationally and internationally—such as the Governor of the Bank of England, the head of the IMF and the governor of the ECB—not to make so many public statements? Every time they speak they upset the markets. They should confine themselves to commenting on their statutory obligations. Statement after statement unsettles the markets and drains their confidence. Ultimately, that hurts us all. I would like those who are in such key positions to maintain a period of dignified silence, if that is possible.

I am sure that we have not had our last debate on this and related matters. However, when we discuss eurozone matters again, I hope that there will be a clear and credible plan to resolve this crisis. It is certainly not visible to me at this stage.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Empey Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, the Minister will not be surprised to learn that I want to say a few words about Libya. It is hard to believe that it was only last year that that nation was in turmoil and a bloody revolution to remove a vicious dictator was in full swing. I am pleased that our Prime Minister and Government took a robust stand against Gaddafi and led the world in the attempt to prevent the further enslavement of the Libyan people.

For decades, Gaddafi ruled by fear and violence. He was reviled and isolated by much of the world, but in more recent years he underwent something of a change in status. After he renounced the drive to obtain nuclear weapons, he was welcomed in western capitals, pitched his tent as appropriate, and growing trade relations were gradually being established, led in part by Britain. However, memories are short. It was not that long ago that we witnessed, within walking distance of this Chamber, the brutality of the Gaddafi regime when its agents shot dead PC Yvonne Fletcher.

That action was but the tip of the iceberg as far as the Gaddafi regime’s crimes against the people of this country were concerned. Gaddafi began to ship weapons to the Irish Republican Army in the early 1970s and the interception of the vessel “Claudia” by Irish defence forces in 1973 was proof positive of his hatred of this country. Following our support for President Reagan’s actions in bombing Libya in the 1980s, Gaddafi decided that he would wage war on the United Kingdom using the proxy of the Irish Republican Army. This was not the first time that our enemies have used the vehicle of Irish republicanism to attack this country. It happened at least twice in the 20th century alone. However, Gaddafi’s supply of vast quantities of weapons and explosives to the IRA in the 1970s and 1980s was by far the most audacious and effective in recent years. Intelligence sources estimated that boatloads of arms and explosives were landed in Ireland, with the interception of the “MV Eksund” in 1987 being the only success in that decade. Intelligence sources conceded that that had been a serious failure and very costly.

In addition to vast quantities of rifles and other arms, the supply of the explosive Semtex was the greatest boost to the terrorist arsenal. These explosives allowed the IRA to conduct a bombing campaign in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain for many years, and were its most potent weapon. Events such as the bombings of the Baltic Exchange and the Arndale centre in Manchester, and numerous attacks on soldiers in buses and even on the Blues and Royals on horseback were fuelled by Gaddafi’s largesse to these terrorists.

This context leads me to my main point. The Minister knows that I have raised the issue of compensation for the families of those killed and wounded in this House and elsewhere for some time. I began by writing to the then Foreign Office Minister, Mike O’Brien MP in 2002 and 2003 as well as to Prime Minister Tony Blair. Since then, I have met officials dealing with this matter and believe that a situation now exists where we can make some progress. When the newly elected Government of Libya are established, can the Minister confirm that there will be a UK Government-led initiative to ensure that the victims of the Gaddafi regime’s crimes get compensation?

I know that there are some third-party actions, led by lawyers acting for a number of victims, and I know that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is facilitating their meetings with the National Transitional Council. But well and good as that may be, I want an assurance that Her Majesty’s Government will lead the main negotiation with the new Government of Libya and not leave it to random groups of individuals and lawyers to take up the case. If this were to happen, many people in this country would lose out. It needs to be led from the front by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

I hope that the efforts made by the United Kingdom to free the people of Libya will not go unnoticed by the newly elected Government. The United Kingdom took great risks and, at the start of the revolution, the Prime Minister was being briefed against by our American allies and others. Many western democracies such as Germany did not lift a finger to help and left it to us, the French and eventually the United States, with some Gulf support, to carry all the risks. You can bet your bottom dollar that the Germans and others will be queuing up in Tripoli to get contracts and do business despite their lack of effort. They did the same in Iraq and I hope that our business leaders and other government departments will not allow us to be left behind again.

I fully understand that massive problems exist in Libya, with much of the country’s infrastructure destroyed and many unresolved tribal issues. The pressure on a new democratic Government will be from their own constituents who will want jobs and services restored. Nevertheless, a marker must be put down that we want a positive outcome to the question of compensation from Libya to the United Kingdom for the crimes of the previous Government of that country. There can be a debate about what form that should take, whether cash or other offset deals involving contracts or trade but, at the end of the day, we want justice for the people of this country. Other nations have pressed their cases in the aftermath of air hijackings and so on and we must be just as resolute.

Although most of the victims are to be found in Northern Ireland, I have always avoided seeing this as a provincial issue. Many other citizens of the UK were victims also. All the regular soldiers who were killed and injured and returned to Great Britain are the most obvious example. However, people were also injured in some of our cities, such as London, Manchester, Birmingham and Warrington, to name but a few. As victims can be found all over the United Kingdom, it must be dealt with as a national issue by the national Government. I trust that the Minister can give the people of this country the assurances and guarantees that I am seeking.

Lockerbie

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, there has been the report of Sir Gus O’Donnell. It has been placed in the Library and it was fully discussed when it was produced some weeks ago. Further light needs to be shed on this and I am confident that, with the full assistance of the new Libyan Government, we will get the papers and the evidence to show exactly what was said and by whom.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us that in addition to pursuing the issue of Lockerbie, the Government will rigorously and vigorously pursue the issue of compensation for all UK victims who were damaged by weapons supplied to the IRA by the Gaddafi regime and that the Government themselves will lead those negotiations rather than leaving them to third parties?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

At present we are looking at all possible options with the Libyan Government to get a resolution on the legacy issues, including this one, which is certainly a very high priority. It is very early days for the new Libyan Government as they have only just been appointed, but we want to see a broad proposal for embracing questions of compensation, reconciliation and, indeed, investment in Northern Ireland. We are trying to develop a broad approach with, and led by, the Libyan Government.

Libya

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Empey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in negotiations with the National Transitional Council in Libya to secure compensation for United Kingdom victims of armaments supplied to the IRA by the Gaddafi Government.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said on 5 September, we are clear that this will be an important bilateral issue between the United Kingdom and the new Libyan authorities. The National Transitional Council’s chairman, Abdul Jalil, and Prime Minister Jibril have assured the Government that they will work with the UK to resolve bilateral issues arising from the wrongs of the Gaddafi regime.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful response. The House will be well aware that the Gaddafi regime supplied boatloads of armaments to the IRA, in particular Semtex explosive, which was responsible for the death and injury of thousands of United Kingdom citizens, as well as the destruction of many properties at enormous cost to the taxpayer. I believe that what is required now is a vigorous and determined approach by the Government to ensure that this matter is resolved, and that United Kingdom citizens who have suffered as a direct result of what was nothing short of an act of war by the then Libyan regime can be properly compensated for the suffering they have endured.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is quite right. I am personally well aware of the damage and horror caused. Our top priority at this moment is to ensure that Libya completes its transition to having an inclusive, stable and democratic Government. However, these matters lie just ahead and we will certainly give full support through the FCO-led unit, which was very helpfully set up by the previous Government to support the campaign for reconciliation and compensation in Northern Ireland.

European Union Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, always argues very effectively and has done so yet again. He invariably falls back on logic and argument rather than on attempts to raise emotional feelings of one kind or another that are inappropriate, but I want to put to him a rather different point. He said, which was fair enough, that this kind of sunset clause often applies to emergency legislation, in particular to emergency legislation that leads, for example, to exceptional powers being taken by a Government that need to be looked at later in a rather less heightened atmosphere in order to decide whether they should remain on the statute book. Many of us will know that emergency legislation passed back in the 1940s still sits on the constitutional pattern of far too many countries that use it to suppress human rights, so one has to be very cautious about that kind of thing.

There is another very different factor about this legislation. It is highly speculative legislation. It makes assumptions about the kinds of issues that are likely to come up over the next few years. We know enough from what we are reading even today that major issues are likely to come up. These go all the way, as John Major said at the Ditchley Foundation only a few days ago, to the question of how one changes eurozone practices—whether one will look again, for example, at the tendency towards an increased or enhanced stability pact. These issues will have the greatest impact on the UK, even though we are not, of course, a member of the eurozone. In this respect the noble Lord, Lord Radice, was absolutely right to say that we cannot know what might arise. The whole point of the sunset clause as we are presenting it is that it gives the British public, in the broadest sense of the word, an opportunity to see what the impact has been of this speculative legislation, which some say will make it very difficult for our representatives in Brussels to represent our own national interests. That is an untested statement. The other untested statement is how far they will feel heavily dissuaded from expressing British national interests for fear that it might set off a referendum.

The great beauty of the sunset clause is that it will unquestionably turn the Bill into a general election phenomenon—an issue that will have to be considered at the next general election—which is, in the mind of many of us, exactly what it ought to be. The British public will be able to consider in the round whether it is wise or unhelpful legislation and to do so in what will undoubtedly be a very substantial turnout, and because this will be an issue about whether this legislation will continue, it will come at the right moment and in the right way before the British people so that they can decide.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I said on Third Reading that the proposal for a sunset clause was ill conceived. I believed that to be true then, and I believe it to be true now. While I was not present for the debate in the other place, I did read it today and unfortunately a lot of unkind things were said about this House, which is unusual. A consistent theme throughout the discussion on the amendments was that a number of them were wrecking amendments. That is how this amendment was seen by a number of Members in the other place. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said that only a small number were there, and that was undoubtedly true, but to some extent that makes the point, because if Members in the other place were actively supportive of the decisions of your Lordships’ House some weeks ago, why did they vote with their feet and not turn up to debate some of these amendments? They obviously did not see merit in them. That is the only reason I can think of why they would abstain in such a way.

[Lord Goodhart]

My Lords, I point out to the noble Lord that Amendment 15B was not put to the Members of the House of Commons. It is a newly introduced amendment and what he is saying has very little bearing on this issue.

[Lord Empey]

I was referring to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and commenting that of course very few people participated in the debate, so that point is valid. The noble and learned Lord is right to say that this particular amendment was not before the other place, but at the end of the day the purpose is the same. The noble Lord, Lord Radice, described it as a “soft sunset”. Well, whether you have a hard sunset or a soft sunset, it is still a sunset, and at the end of the day I just wonder, in view of our discussions in this House about our own future, whether it is wise for Members of this House to send anything back to the other place that contains the word “sunset”. It is probably not the best thing for us to do. There is no constitutional imperative to send this back to the other place. If we believed that there was, it would be the duty of this House to do so. I just do not see that in front of us.

On the continuous use of the word “flexibility”, we all like flexibility in government, but it is a euphemism for something else. It means that Ministers can go on to take decisions, and it is precisely that flexibility that has existed for the past 35 years that leads to the Bill being in front of your Lordships’ House tonight. It is unfortunate that we have to go through these procedures, but I see no alternative but to go ahead with the Bill, and I believe that the amendment as currently drafted, or in its original form, casts a dagger at the very heart of what the Bill stands for. I hope that noble Lords will reject this proposal.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, I support the Motion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goodhart. I preface my remarks by referring to my noble friend Lord Empey’s statement about not angering the House of Commons. It would be unwise, frankly, if we went into a pre-emptive cringe at this stage. I am not sure that that would help us very much in the difficult debates ahead.

No noble Lord in the House today has addressed Amendment 15. We accept that it was voted against by the House of Commons, and in any case it is not permissible for us to return to the identical amendment again. That is not being suggested. The amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goodhart, is meant to produce what has been called by the noble Lord, Lord Radice, a “soft sunset”.

I listened to the debate in the other place and one of the things I heard there quite surprised me, although on reflection I think it was entirely valid. The Minister for Europe was questioned by one of the not terribly friendly members of his own party who would rather see us outside the European Union. He was asked whether it would be possible for this Parliament or a future Parliament to insert a referendum requirement in the primary legislation that approved the matters in this Bill that are not subject to a referendum but are subject merely to primary legislation. He replied, “Yes, absolutely. No problem. If that is what Parliament decides, you can add another referendum—just like that—in the primary legislation”. That startled me and led me to think that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, when he talked about it having both ways, might not have heard of that development in constitutional practice.

When the Minister replies to the debate, can he say whether the converse is also true? In the primary legislation that would have to be introduced in the House of Commons on the back of a decision by the government in Brussels to go ahead with one of these matters, could Parliament simply waive in that legislation the requirement that is in this legislation? It will be interesting to hear what he has to say about that. I do not see that the proposition that the Minister for Europe agreed to—that a referendum requirement could be added where one was not required under this legislation—could be valid if the contrary proposition, which I have also put, was not valid. Perhaps the Minister will reply to that.

Frankly, with some of the arguments that have been introduced about how flexibility is a dirty word, my heart fails me when I think of people strapping themselves to masts, waiting for the ship to go down and saying, “Thank God I am tied to the mast and I cannot swim”. It is not a very good argument. The circumstances in which flexibility could be exercised are extremely limited and will be difficult to invoke; this amendment simply suggests a way of doing it. We would be very wise if we were to once again ask the Commons to think again about this matter. This is not a wrecking amendment and, for the reasons I have given, I do not think it takes the matter much further than it is already, with the possibility of the House of Commons varying the provisions at the moment that it enacts the primary legislation. I hope that some further thought will be given to this and that we will not all turn ourselves to the belief that this is a wrecking amendment, which it is not intended to be.