Civil Aviation Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Rotherwick]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Countess, Lady Mar, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on tabling the amendment. It is most important, and the compelling evidence that we have heard is evidence I have heard about for a long time and, indeed, read in books. If I am right, the aircraft referred to is the one that the royal flight uses and is mainly used for Ministers. If someone said to me that a Minister has faded or gone bonkers, the next question should be: how many times have they flown on the royal flight? We all get into the commercial aeroplanes that we are talking about, so this is something that affects us. Of the Cranfield test, it was suggested—alleged—to me that it was suspect because the aircraft that they had on test were ones given to them by the airlines, not picked at random but, it was alleged, safe aircraft given for tests. One of the unofficial research teams referred to in some books found that, of its swab tests on a range of aircraft, the majority had contamination when the swab tests came off seats.

We have all had the awareness when we come off a plane that we frequently travel on: “Gosh, I was tired on that flight. I’m not normally that tired”. That is a real problem. If the Minister does not accept the amendment, my only advice for noble Lords about planes that take their cabin air, their bleed air, off the engines, off the compressor, is to fly on a Boeing 787, the Dreamliner. It is the first aircraft that does not use the ghastly system that causes the problem; it uses a specialist air system totally independent of the engine.

I hope that the Government will come forward to address this elephant in the room; it affects us all when we go on aircraft.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I do not know whether the amendments before us will be the right vehicle, but they draw attention to a problem that definitely exists. As someone with a family member who is a commercial airline pilot, I am very conscious of the risks involved. It is often pointed out that pilots and air crew are at greater risk of receiving higher levels of radiation because they fly without any protection at very high levels for prolonged periods—indeed, throughout their working lives—and that that makes a difference. Here, there is undoubtedly a problem but the solution is not as immediately obvious. For instance, on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, about the Dreamliner and its new system, many of the huge fleets of existing aircraft have the basic bleed air system so this is not easy to resolve. Mention has been made of the BAe 146, which is a very nice aircraft to fly in and, in particular, to land in, but there have been incidents where aircraft have suffered a large ingress of vapour to the cabin, visible to the passengers. This is not a figment of someone’s imagination; it actually happens. Although it is true to say that pilots on flight decks generally have an independent air supply from that of the people in the main cabin, it is sourced from the same place.

The question is: do we need international action? Let us face it, there are a very small number of aircraft manufacturers in the world and probably an even smaller number of aircraft engine manufacturers. Basically, there needs to be international action by Governments to deal with this issue, whether through an action in this Bill, through action by the Government taken via international organisations or through discussions with the industry. As the Minister pointed out, we are still number two in the world on aerospace, which is a very important industry to this country. I would think that adequate information is bound to be available within the United Kingdom from the manufacturers of engines and aircraft or parts of aircraft generally, and I cannot see any reason why we cannot pursue this issue through that route.

We are in a worldwide competitive market, and no individual airline will be in a position to put its head above the parapet without putting itself out of business. Therefore, we need not only national or European action but international action to deal with this. I guess that we all fly in aircraft that are differently flagged. We could be in an American aircraft, a British aircraft or an aircraft from Abu Dhabi. This is an international issue that needs international action. I do not think that we will resolve it simply by domestic means alone, albeit that we can set an example, and I have no doubt that that is the purpose behind the amendments. I think that the proposers would accept, though, that this needs an international response.

I hope that the Minister will allude to that and say whether he would be prepared to undertake on behalf of the Government to contact our European partners and some of our major manufacturers. We have medical expertise in this country that should be able to identify the significance of the problem. I think that the noble Countess said that you will not find if you do not look, which is a very telling point. Yes, I do not want to see our industry crippled competitively against others but, at the same time, if long-term damage is done to pilots and other air crew as a result of this contamination, that is a matter where we as a Parliament have a duty of care to people in the community who work in that environment, just as the noble Countess identified those people who worked in our agricultural sector and were exposed to vast quantities of contamination.

I recall the time years ago when people said that Sellafield was not a threat in the Irish Sea. We were told that the levels of contamination were perfectly safe. The levels of what people think is safe are now about one-thousandth of what they were 30 years ago. We are all in territory where we know that something is not right but we are not necessarily sure of the solution. There are many examples where substances entering our systems can do long-term damage if people are exposed to them for long periods of time.

I have an open mind on whether this is the right route but I hope that the Minister, on behalf of the Government, at least will address the fundamental and underlying point behind the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

We all understand that point. The noble Countess referred to macho jobs. There are lots of tasks that are extremely dangerous and people are prepared to take them on, but a risk to their health of what is involved is a long-running dimension that this manifestation represents.

My point is obvious enough: I was assured several years ago that there was not sufficient substance in the position as established at that stage for action to be taken. The action, of course, will be dramatic. Reference has been made to the fact that the Dreamliner does not use this air system. The Dreamliner is rather an expensive aircraft to produce, as we all know, and it is in open competition with the A380, which uses the old system. We are talking about massive resources being involved. There is no easy switch. If anyone had thought at any stage that everyone’s health could have been safeguarded just with an easy technological change, that would have been done, but we are talking about something so much bigger.

[Lord Empey]

Does the noble Lord accept that maintenance is an issue here? The 146’s oil seals were partly responsible when they corroded, largely due to the chemicals to which they were exposed. Maintenance may not be the solution but it is certainly an issue.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

It certainly is; the 146 illustrated that in graphic terms and that is why changes were made. I hope that the Minister is able today to build on experience. After all, the issue has been before the department, thanks to the work of the noble Countess, over a number of years now. I hope that he is able to give the Committee reassurances about this question of health and how it is being monitored. I do not have the slightest doubt that if we are wrong, we would all feel dreadfully culpable because significant warning signals have been sent out, and that is why the issue has to be treated with the utmost seriousness.