British and Irish Sign Language

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 3rd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

I assure the noble Baroness that there is no question of our not supporting the use of BSL services. In fact, good, accessible services are the best way to remove or overcome barriers that BSL users and people with hearing loss face. We have worked closely with deaf people and their organisations on delivering improvements across a wide range of services, including those provided by the Department for Work and Pensions and across much of the public sector; this is also the case in private companies such as Barclays, Lloyds, Sky and Virgin Media. The reality is that a growing number of organisations in the private, public and voluntary sectors are providing access to their services for deaf BSL users via the video relay services. With respect to the Department for Work and Pensions, I reassure her that there is no question of our not considering this service for UC rollout, but I will certainly take that point back to the department to ensure that that is the case.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

Can the Minister assure the House that the Welsh language will be given full parity with the other languages of the United Kingdom in this matter?

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, BSL is a devolved matter so, with regard to Wales and the Welsh language, there were no particular recommendations on the provision of BSL. However, a parliamentary Statement in 2003 recognised BSL as a language and the Lords Select Committee was clear that this should be extended to the devolved regions. It is also important to make it clear that there are a number of different sign languages, not just one particular sign language.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 31st October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

I have to make it very clear to the noble Lord that I am not in a position to make a firm commitment. All I can do is say that we have worked well together through the passage of the Bill thus far, and it is right that he should feel that he could trust what I have said so far, and trust in me and my team to do everything we can to make sure that we can do what he has asked for. But I cannot make a commitment because of the constraints, which I think that he knows I am under, in terms of how the system works. Given the government amendments that are coming forward today and those that came forward last week on Report, I feel that we have had a considerable degree of consensus thus far, and I would be so sorry if that were to end now, because I think that we can do more.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

The Minister tangentially mentioned devolution here, raising the question as to whether there has been any discussion between Her Majesty’s Government and the Ministers in Wales, for example. It is in the realm of devolved authority, I believe. The Welsh Government would be wholly justified in saying, “This is a matter solely for us”. As she will know, on many occasions such as these, the devolved Administration will say, “We’re quite happy for you to legislate on this matter”. Has any discussion to that end taken place at all?

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, during that helpful intervention I was able to glance across to the clerk. I was looking for a nod but I got more than that. I got a small written note which confirms that the Minister has said enough to ensure that this issue can be discussed again at Third Reading. Without any commitment from the Minister to bring forward a particular form of words, the intention to look further and come back is sufficient on this occasion. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

I thought that we could only speak once on Report, but I hope that the House will excuse me if I get to my feet again. Fundamentally, I disagree with the noble Lord. Consumer objectives are merely bringing to the face the underlying discussion and the ethos which sits entirely behind this body and every one of its instructions. If the noble Lord reads all the roles and responsibilities and the debates about those roles and responsibilities, he will understand that this meshes perfectly with these activities. It strengthens its hand in an obvious way, rather than leaving it in a slightly awkward, ambiguous situation.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I am full of respect for and sympathy with the amendments and the spirit in which they have been moved. We are facing massive social abuse that is complicated and extremely extensive. I doubt very much whether in the complicated and convoluted society in which we live it is humanly possible to rid us of all of it. I am sure that is beyond us.

The remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, triggered two thoughts in my mind. The first relates to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 and how well that Act has served society. We are still dealing with it day in and day out in the courts, and with the help of judicial interpretation it is as fresh in many respects as it was the day it was passed. In so far as the offence of assault occasioning actually bodily harm—Section 47—is concerned, the noble Lord is absolutely right. There should be a parallel offence that is not confined to an assault and does not concentrate upon a physical consequence. There have been attempts in the past to widen that offence, but they have been rather vague and less than totally successful. It has to be revamped completely so that the concept of assault is not basic to it and it is not confined to bodily harm.

My other point relates to the higher end of the scale with regard to cold calling. At the very bottom of the scale there is the fishing exercise, the hopeful prospect that something might come of what is not of itself a criminal act. At the other end of the scale, there is a very serious criminal act where A says to B “Let us pretend that an accident occurred—we know nothing like that ever took place—and you are the claimant in regard to that matter and that you are prepared to put forward a statement of facts about a fact that you know to be totally false. I will support you, and we will split the profits between us. You should be prepared, of course, to commence an action in the courts”. The moment you do that, you have probably committed a very serious offence. You have attempted to pervert the course of justice. I believe that as a proposition of law, exceptional to the usual law of attempts, every attempt to bring about a perversion of the course of justice is of itself a perversion of the course of justice. It is at that end that we should start concentrating. Very few of these cases are brought to court, and very few of them are successful, but it would be marvellous to be able to make an example of some of the very worst cases, and by such example a very considerable social lesson would be taught.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

I would like to ask whether the “direct approaches” referred to in proposed subsection (3E) need to relate to financial matters.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eden of Winton]

My Lords, I know that this amendment refers to all faith schools but I hope that I may be forgiven if I concentrate my remarks on the only faith schools about which I know anything at all—the Church of England schools. In doing so, I am encouraged to some extent by the report that I read of what the Prime Minister told the national parliamentary prayer breakfast, which took place recently in Westminster Hall. I wish to quote briefly from the article in the Times of 26 June this year, which reported that the Prime Minister said at that prayer breakfast:

“It is encouraging that Christianity still plays such a vital role in our national life. It has had an immense historic influence in the development of our culture and institutions and it motivates British people to wonderful acts of service and self-sacrifice. We are a country with a Christian heritage and we should not be afraid to say so”.

Throughout our debates on the Bill, frequent reference has been made to freedom of speech and equality of treatment and esteem and to the fact that marriage is seen and acknowledged to be the building block of society. Family life and the bringing up of children is one aspect of marriage that will change as a result of this Bill becoming law, though its importance must remain a significant feature in our life. Ideally, the family includes a mother and father, maybe siblings, maybe uncles and aunts and, I hope, grandparents. Grandparents have a significant role in the nurturing and upbringing of children. The aim of a family should be to provide a stable and secure environment for the nurturing of children.

Church schools—and this goes for schools of all faiths—can help families by providing moral guidance and a set of standards that they seek to have upheld. This is of increasing significance in our life today when the pressures on children and family life are so enormous. We have recently had several references in this House to video games and other pressures to which children are subjected. The more we can hold on to standards that are enshrined in the values of faith schools, the better it will be for the nurturing of children. Because of the change in the definition of marriage that will inevitably follow the passing of this Bill, it is very desirable that, notwithstanding the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, these words form part and parcel of the Bill: church schools should be encouraged to teach the tenets of religion,

“concerning marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children”.

Those words need emphasis over and over again because there are many, many people beyond this House who are afraid that those principles of married life will be undermined by this Bill.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

I rise with very considerable trepidation, with humility and, if I may say so, with some dubiety in relation to this issue. I come from Welsh nonconformist stock. I am a Welsh Presbyterian and my family have been Welsh Presbyterians for well over 200 years. However, I appreciate and respect the Church of England, the position that it occupies in the history of this land, its status as an established Church and all faith schools. As a lawyer or, more accurately, as a retired lawyer, my question is whether there is a point where a faith school or a body operating under any trust is entitled, if it so wishes, to go contrary to a principle that had been clearly and specifically spelt out in an Act of Parliament. The answer must be in the negative.

I do not know exactly what the circumstances might be in relation to this section under the Education Act 1996. If the right reverend Prelate is right to say that the amendment is no more than making an assurance doubly so—in other words consolidating a line that is already there—I would accept it. On the other hand, if the amendment allows the whole principle of the Bill to be endangered and imperilled, one must oppose it.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 24th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames]

My Lords, around the Committee there is clear recognition of an injustice in inheritance tax terms to carers and siblings. However, while I do so with diffidence, I will to try to answer the question posed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. He effectively asked what the difference was between siblings living together and couples presently in civil partnerships living together. The answer, I suggest, is that the noble Baroness’s amendment threatens to undermine the whole notion of civil partnerships, which are about loving relationships between people living together as couples—and yes, in a sexual relationship—rather than about carers or adult brothers and sisters.

The questions are not questions about inheritance tax. I suggest that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alli, that people may wish to continue in civil partnerships even after this Bill goes through and even where they are same-sex couples is completely valid. To broaden the notion of civil partnerships, as this amendment suggests, undermines that possibility. Even in the words of the amendment which calls only for a review, as emolliently pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the suggestion has that tendency to undermine what civil partnerships are. It is for that reason that nine years ago noble Lords called the notion embodied in this amendment inappropriate and why, although it was passed here, it was rejected by the other place. I suggest that the amendment should be rejected today for the same reason and that Parliament needs to find a way, whether as described by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, in her erudite explanation of the technical difficulties, or some other way, to solve the quite separate injustice to carers and siblings without interfering with or undermining the notion of civil partnerships.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I have always felt discomfort if not, indeed, some element of contempt for what is called the vehicular defence. Too often, it has been said in a case where there is every merit in a proposed amendment, “Ah, yes, but that is not the correct vehicle to use at this stage”. More often than not, in the years that I have spent in this House and in another place, I have felt that it was a path of craven retreat used by many Governments in many situations but in a wholly unworthy cause. Indeed, that is my reaction in the first instance when it is pleaded that this measure may not be the proper vehicle. However, I suggest that for once that argument may well be true—not only that it is not the appropriate vehicle but that it may not be the lawful vehicle.

I have total respect and regard for all the arguments that have been advanced in favour of changing the law in this area. The arguments advanced are noble, honourable and just and there is no way, it seems to me, that they can properly be countered. However, if one looks at the preamble to the Bill, it seems to me that there may be some dubiety. I put it no higher than that, certainly not in the presence of persons far better able than me to judge this matter. It could be argued that this issue does not fall within the Bill’s Long Title, which refers to,

“the review of civil partnership, and for connected purposes”.

It may well be argued that civil partnership deals with a sexual relationship. If that is so, the relationships that we have been talking about this afternoon go beyond that. They elongate civil partnership but are not of the essence of civil partnership.

Indeed, even if I am wrong, we should remember that what is asked for is inclusion in a review. There will be immense discretion as to what the conclusion should ultimately be. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this debate may be, and they are all one way, in my respectful submission one dilutes the possibilities by including the issue in a review where there may be dubiety as to whether that is the correct vehicle. Therefore, in the circumstances, I respectfully suggest that the amendment is aimed at the wrong Act. It is not the 2004 Act that causes injustice in this regard, but the 19th century Partnership Act, as amended. In other words, if the relationships that one speaks about could by statute be deemed to be a certain type of partnership with a certain type of fiscal consequence leading therefrom that would be just, equitable and proper, then the proposal would be aimed at a correct target. If that could be done quickly not by way of review but by direct legislation, I would, indeed, consider that we had done something very worth while in a very simple, understandable way without cluttering up the argument with all manner of other considerations that may be less than relevant in the two circumstances of the case.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I shall not detain the Committee by repeating what I said nine years ago when we debated this issue, and the controversy between those who focused on sexual relations and those who focused on tax and inheritance tax.

I have two points to make. Clause 14 seems to me not to require any amendment because it states:

“The Secretary of State must arrange … for the operation and future of the Civil Partnership Act 2004 in England and Wales to be reviewed, and … for a report on the outcome of the review to be produced and published”.

The clause goes on to say that that,

“does not prevent the review from also dealing with other matters relating to civil partnership”.

One of the other matters relating to civil partnership that has been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Marks, in particular, was referred to by the Joint Committee on Human Rights in paragraph 95 of our report. We said:

“We are not convinced by the Government’s reasons not to extend civil partnerships to opposite sex couples, and we welcome the Government’s announcement that it will review this matter. In doing so, the Government should take into account the potential discrimination that may arise between cohabiting opposite sex couples and civil partners”.

I very much welcome the fact that the Government have made it clear that there will be a review of the operation of the Civil Partnership Act to look at that aspect of the existing discrimination. That point has already been made by several noble Lords and it is important to deal with it. I have always disagreed with the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, as she knows, because I am strongly in favour of cohabitation rights for unmarried opposite-sex couples, and she is firmly opposed to that. That will clearly be a matter that the review will need to take into account to see whether the Government decide to give some protection to so-called common law marriages or not.

I continue to believe in that, as I did nine years ago. I am delighted by the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, because she has taught me aspects of social security and welfare that I was not aware of. For all the reasons given, I do not think that one should now fetter Clause 14 by requiring that the review should deal with matters that are truly beyond the scope of the Bill and ought not to be part of the review.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

I, of course, need the most rudimentary lectures in any scientific subject you care to mention, but I appreciate—and it was said time and again at Second Reading—that there is a distinction between equality and sameness. However, that is no bar to giving the gay community—same-sex couples—the same term to celebrate and enshrine their faith in and commitment to each other. If the Bill goes through in its present form and those couples are henceforth asked, “Are you married?”, they will be able to say yes, but if the amendments that are now suggested go through, they will still have to say no, and I for one would regret that.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I find myself in total agreement with the submissions made so clearly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood. I have immense respect for and sympathy with those who stand firmly on each side of this argument. If it is proven that there can be no actual sameness in single-sex and dual-sex marriage, then on a very artificial basis the argument seems to be carried that way. There cannot be total sameness, and we all know that.

However, the question that we should humbly be asking ourselves this afternoon is: can there be so much in common that the idea of marriage can accommodate both in respect and in status? That, I think, is the real question. If the argument was that the Christian concept of marriage is now and always has been immutable, unchangeable and utterly the same from generation to generation, then my case would fail. However, is that in fact the case?

Prior to 1836, people could get married in this country only in the Church of England. My forebears were staunch Welsh Presbyterians but they had to submit to a ceremony that they regarded as wrong. Was that not a massive change in so far as the institution of marriage was concerned in 1836? I am sorry to pontificate about matters that are well known to many distinguished lawyers in this House but before 1882 and the Married Women’s Property Act of that year, a married woman could not hold substantial property in her own name. She could hold what I think was called her “paraphernalia” but other property became the property of her husband and she herself was essentially a chattel of her husband’s estate. Immediately after that Act of 1882, could anybody say that marriage had not changed at all, any more than one could say it after 1836?

Then, in 1925, the criminal law was substantially changed. Previous to that point, if a married woman was present when an offence was committed by her husband, there was a clear presumption—a rebuttable presumption, it is true—that she was acting under his dominion and under his orders. Would one not say that that substantially changed the situation of marriage in the criminal law?

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The noble Lord is giving us a very fine history of a number of changes which have, by statute, been brought about in relation to the definition of marriage. Is he suggesting that any of those changes was of the scale and nature of the change now being proposed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Ultimately, bearing in mind the whole ethos of society, it is a matter of judgment, whether the totality of these changes has substantially altered the institution of marriage. Prior to 1991 a husband could rape his wife provided they were still living together and no separation order had been made by a court. Was her position the same after 1991 as it was previously? One could give other less spectacular instances.

[Lord Cormack]

I nearly always find myself in almost total agreement with the noble Lord, but surely the one constant throughout all these changes is that the relationship has been between a man and a woman.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

That is absolutely true. That is the assumption made in the Book of Common Prayer, which, as I understand it—I am a Welsh Presbyterian—says that there are three justifications for marriage. The first is the procreation of children, the second is the avoidance of the temptations of fornication and adultery, and the third is that there should be a lifelong relationship based on love, affection and respect. The first justification has been dealt with very properly by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. Many people who are young and capable of procreating children now get married on the understanding that there will be no children in their relationship. Does one say that their union is less than a union of marriage? On the third point, about the creation of a lifelong union based on love, affection, respect and mutual dedication, is there a fundamental difference between that and the institution of marriage, as we say now? Nothing that I have said can prove the matter one way or the other. However, I make the obvious point that marriage is not an immutable institution. It has become elongated and greatly changed over the years, and will be changed again. Is it not possible to accommodate within that change the term “marriage” for people of the same sex?

I make one last point with regard to union. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, said that there was a union of Scotland, England and Wales. It was never a union in relation to Wales, as I am the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, will agree. The preface to the Act of Union says the country, dominion and principality of Wales is now and always has been annexed, incorporated and included. It was a rape—certainly not a union.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I was not at the Second Reading debate but I have read the 90 speeches since then. I am glad I was not there because I would have added even more to the length of the debates. I declare an interest: I am neither a believing Christian nor a believing Jew, and that no doubt colours the way in which I approach these matters. Many of those who have spoken already come from a strong religious tradition, which I fully respect, and which drives many of their views. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, has said, the main purpose of the Bill is to enable same-sex couples to marry, either in a civil ceremony or, provided that the religious organisation concerned is in agreement, on religious premises with the marriage being solemnised through a religious ceremony.

I promise to speak only once in relation to Amendments 7, 8, 9, 34 and 46. All are based on the idea that there is something called “traditional marriage”, defined as the union of one man and one woman for life to the exclusion of all others. What they mean by “traditional marriage”—as the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, indicated in referring to the Book of Common Prayer—is a form of marriage that is biblically ordained in the Judeo-Christian tradition, which is a theistic tradition, although it does not represent the thinking of many Christians or Jews or many of those of no religious belief who are not affronted by the notion of same-sex marriage. Under the Bill, Christian churches, Orthodox Jews, Sikhs and Muslims are well protected from the risk of liability. However, that does not satisfy the movers of these amendments, who seek to write into the statute book a lesser status for same-sex marriage than for opposite-sex marriage by calling it “civil union” or some other term.

Children: Contact with Fathers

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

Well, my Lords, there being very few males in primary schools is an important point, although clearly one off my brief. It is a valuable point which needs to be looked at.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Does the Minister accept that for every case where a man is deprived of access by the courts to his child, there will be at least 20 cases where a father has no interest whatever in the upbringing of those children? Whereas no human agency can force a man to love, respect and be responsible for his children, it is nevertheless a human tragedy of such immense proportions as to demand the urgent action of government. Is there a specific plan that the Government are prepared to consider, and will they consider giving it ample and adequate resources?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are clearly talking about fundamental social trends which have been going on for many decades. There are two ways of looking at family breakdown: in some ways it is a liberation, and in some ways it is an unnecessary tragedy when you have children involved. Clearly, we have various prevention measures, a fund to get counselling practitioners trained and support for people so that when they separate, that separation is as amicable as possible.

Human Trafficking

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I refer the noble Lord to the point I made at the beginning about the UKBA now having a team dedicated exclusively to decision-making around victims, which is important in this area. In addition, it is important for me to be clear that the UKBA has a “victims first” attitude. We address the needs of the victim and investigate the crime against them before any consideration is made of an individual’s immigration status. That is secondary in situations such as this.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

I have a background question. As the Minister knows, the Children Act was passed in 1989 and came into force in 1992. Many things have changed since then. Is it intended that there should be a general and comprehensive review of the operation of that statute incorporating the matter raised by my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am not aware that we have any plans to review that legislation in the way that the noble Lord proposes, but part of what the interdepartmental ministerial group which looks at human trafficking does is continual monitoring of the legislation to see that it is proper and appropriate for tackling this vile crime.

Credit Unions

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I am grateful to be allowed to speak very shortly in the gap. It was only late yesterday that I realised that I would be able to be in London today.

I applaud and admire the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his sterling efforts, not only today but over the years, in relation to this particular aspect. I accept that it is only credit unions, or some development along very similar lines, that can solve the problem that is a burden for so many of our fellow countrymen. Millions of people in desperate economic conditions suffer the tyrannies of what is euphemistically called the sub-prime credit market. They are not there because they want to be but because the harsh conditions of their life have left them no options.

However, they are not without a shield; that is my point. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 was replaced by the Consumer Credit Act 2006, which extended its provisions and made them much more prevalent. The Act allows a judge in a civil court, whenever it is believed that a borrower has been unfairly dealt with, to intervene substantially and radically in relation to the contract. The judge can do so if he is of the view that the terms of the contract were less than fair, or that the way in which the creditor has acted was less than fair in all circumstances. On the face of it, that could bring about a virtual nemesis of the tyranny exercised by so many creditors in this regard. Even the best of them profit from a situation where there is a huge imbalance of status between creditor and debtor.

Unfortunately, very little use seems to have been made of that legislation. My brief appeal today is that this shield that can protect so many of our fellow countrymen in the years in which we will develop what I trust will be a very wholesome credit union situation, comparable with that in North America, the Republic of Ireland and Australasia, is used to ensure that those people are not left without protection. Society can do a great deal to allow these people to know that they have basic, fundamental rights under the Act of 2006. I would like to see the Judicial Studies Board of every circuit in England and Wales propagate the need for judges to give the fullest possible commitment on this matter, so that justice can be done to a limited degree in the short term for those people who so need it in this context.

Credit Unions

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

Yes, my Lords, credit unions are local organisations. It is very important that social units in the locality help them. Just as important as local authorities are social housing groups. There are already 20 such groups working with credit unions, which is very important.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Does the Minister agree that the situation is acute because needy people must be kept out of the clutches of loan sharks? I appreciate that successive Governments have shown great good will in this matter. Will he study the situation in the Republic of Ireland, where, as he said, some 50 per cent of personal credit is represented by credit unions? In New Zealand and Canada the figure is between 20 and 22 per cent. Will he take those systems very much into account and do something that involves a substantial injection of public money into this investment?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we have made clear that we are prepared to support this industry, but we are determined to support it in such a way that it becomes viable in the long term. We are attacking illegal loans, which are coming down a bit. There are various supports for poorer people, such as payday loans, rent-to-buy and home credit. It is a very complicated picture, but we are determined to push this new factor as hard as we can.