Schools: Children in Care

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Thursday 7th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, will local authorities retain their duty of care during term time, and what arrangements will be made during holidays to see that the children’s educational interests are not neglected during that time?

[Lord Nash]

My noble friend makes a very good point, as local authorities do remain responsible. In holidays there are some facilities that may be able to keep children and we have initiatives to try to extend such arrangements, but it is certainly the case that local authorities continue to be responsible.

Children in Need

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Monday 17th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

We intend that all children in this country are treated equally. I hope that the children to whom the noble Lord refers will be able to access all the services that would apply to any other children.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, both the Question and my noble friend’s Answer refer to the “need” of children. Could he kindly define the Government’s definition of “need” for these purposes?

[Lord Nash]

I had better write to my noble friend on the definition of “children in need” as it is quite long and I do not want to take up noble Lords’ time. However, it should apply to all children equally.

Schools: Gardening

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Monday 24th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I am most impressed with the noble Lord’s ability to weave into this Question something which might appear to be so off-piste, but he will know, from his experience of having done my job, that when all the MPs disappear to try to get re-elected it is the Lords Minister who does all the work. However, I will attempt to come back to him with a more fulsome answer to his question.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, there is a great deal of public awareness about the developmental pressure on playing fields, but I do not think there is any about growing space. Gardening takes room—less room than sport—but it is very important. How is the Minister informed of those pressures and how is he protecting those resources?

[Lord Nash]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. We are very keen to protect school land and school playing field land. There is a legal requirement on anyone holding public land which has been used for a maintained school or academy in the last eight years—or 10 years in the case of some playing field land—to seek consent from the Secretary of State. This will include land used not just for playing fields but for horticultural purposes.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 4th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I am grateful for the many comments that have been made in relation to these amendments. I assure noble Lords that we have considered all the issues that have been raised very carefully. We will continue to do so as we develop the regulations and statutory guidance. The Government are clear that children need to have the knowledge and skills at the right time to help them confidently navigate the modern world.

These amendments are not at all driven by the need to lighten my or my successors’ loads by avoiding the necessity of answering regular—I will not say endless—questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, on this subject. I record my gratitude to her for the tireless way in which she has campaigned on it.

The role of parents is central to many of these issues. We are clear that schools have a role in supporting parents to ensure their children develop the knowledge and skills they need to stay safe and happy, hence making the subjects covered by Amendment 12 mandatory. We therefore think it is right that we encourage close working between schools and parents on content and delivery of lessons.

Amendment 12A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, seeks to make RSE mandatory in primary schools. I thank the noble Lord for a helpful recent meeting on this. I know that he welcomes the overall proposals made by the Government, as he said today. We want to focus on ensuring that all children can access relationships education at primary school. This will likely include age-appropriate content, online risks such as pornography, particularly in the later stages of primary, and will involve supporting children to learn the building blocks of how to develop mutually respectful relationships both online and offline. This will then provide a solid foundation for RSE at secondary school.

Primary schools will, of course, continue to teach the same as now in the science curriculum. This is a very sensitive issue for many parents, as a number of noble Lords have said, and we need to respect that. Our approach is to trust and encourage schools to engage with parents. This allows schools to take a collective view with parents on whether they would like some elements of sex education to be taught at primary. We know that currently some primary schools teach sex and relationships education in an age-appropriate way. The Government’s intention is to preserve the current situation for parents to allow them to excuse their child from any non-science related sex education taught at primary. The right to withdraw would not apply to science teaching, as now. We will engage with the teaching profession and experts, such as the Sex Education Forum and religious groups, to ensure that the guidance clarifies what should be taught to younger pupils to equip them as they begin to make the transition to adulthood. We will also talk to parents so that we can factor in their views about the age-appropriate content they want their children to be taught.

Amendment 12B, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, seeks to remove the right to withdraw. I thank the noble Baroness for raising the issue. However, we believe that it is important to make appropriate provision for a right for parents to withdraw their child from sex education within RSE. We believe it is right that parents have the option to teach this to their children themselves, in accordance with their values, if they so wish.

We have not provided a right to withdraw from relationships education at primary because this will focus on core concepts of safety and forming healthy relationships that we think all children should be taught. Of course, children in primary school will also continue to receive the same education in the science curriculum as now, and, as I have said, the right of withdrawal will not apply to that curriculum.

We know that parents can be supportive partners alongside schools in delivering relationships and sex education. That is why we will look to retain the elements of current guidance that encourage schools to actively involve parents when they plan their programmes. We know that in practice, very few parents exercise their right to withdraw, and close working between schools and parents to get the content right is crucial to this.

As we have said in our policy statement to the House, the Secretary of State will consult further to clarify the age at which a young person may have the right to make their own decisions. This is because the current blanket right of parents is inconsistent with English case law, and with the ECHR and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The outcome will be set out in regulations, which will be subject to consultation and debate. I welcome further discussion with the noble Baroness on that point as we move forward, recognising that she has particular expertise in this area.

On Amendments 12C and 12D, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Storey and Lord Paddick, on removing consideration of religious backgrounds, I appreciate their interest in the topic of teaching that is appropriate to religious backgrounds. We believe it is right that the religious views of parents and children should be respected when teaching about these subjects. However, I reiterate that the religious background point does not allow schools to avoid teaching these subjects; it is about how they teach them. They can teach them in a way that is sensitive to religious background while being compliant with the Equality Act, which of course they must be. Even if a school or individual teacher were to suggest that, within the context of their faith, same-sex relationships or marriage are wrong, they would also be expected to explain that their views are set within a wider context—that beliefs on this subject differ, that the law of the country recognises these relationships and marriages, and that all people should be treated with equal respect. If a school or teacher conveyed their belief in a way that involved discriminating against a particular pupil or group of pupils, this would be unacceptable in any circumstances and is likely to constitute unlawful discrimination.

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Peterborough for his comments, and a number of noble Lords also referred to the Catholic Education Service guidance, which sets out that pupils should be taught a broad and balanced RSE programme which provides them with factual information. In secondary schools, this includes teaching about the law in relation to equalities and marriage, including same-sex marriage. It also sets out that pupils should be taught that discriminatory language is unacceptable, including homophobic language, and explains how to challenge it. We believe that it would be inappropriate to refute the rights of parents by teaching about relationships and sex without having regard to the religious background of the pupils. To do so would risk breaching parents’ rights to freedom of religion.

However, on what the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said about bullying, we have supported and funded a number of organisations to help schools drive it out. On his concerns about ensuring good practice and that materials are disseminated widely, we will of course support that endeavour. Our proposals have been welcomed by a number of organisations representing the LGBT communities, including Stonewall, which said:

“This is a huge step forward and a fantastic opportunity to improve inclusion and acceptance in education”.


To pick up on a point made so well by my noble friend Lord Deben, the engagement process will be important to ensure that we can agree on an approach that balances all views and interests. We have seen many examples of faith schools already teaching sex education that is both in line with their ethos and inclusive, in compliance with the Equality Act and public sector equality duty. We therefore want to talk to a wide range of stakeholders and learn from existing good practice, and reflect that in the regulations and guidance.

In response to Amendment 12E, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, on teaching content, I thank him for raising this matter. I agree that the programmes that schools shape and deliver on relationships education and RSE are key. The content of what is taught, and how it is taught, must prepare pupils for the modern world and be age-appropriate. However, I do not agree that we should define the content of the subjects in detail in legislation as, given the nature of these subjects, this would very quickly become out of date. We want schools to be able to respond quickly to changes in society. We also want to give them flexibility to design a programme that meets the particular needs of their pupils. That is why we intend to conduct a thorough and wide-ranging engagement with the subjects, which will consider subject content, school practice and quality of delivery. The aim is to determine the content of the regulations and the statutory guidance, including what level of subject content we should specify.

As I said, that will entail significant involvement of the teaching profession. The department will also engage with, and seek evidence from, a wide range of experts in the field, many of whom I have already referred to. The guidance will provide a clear framework for schools, with core pillars of content, to allow them to design their programmes. Crucially, this approach will still allow expert organisations, such as the PSHE Association, to produce their own high-quality materials for schools to use, as they do at the moment.

In answer to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Watson, I completely agree about the importance of training and the use of voluntary organisations, and we will consider this carefully in our considerations in the run-up to delivery.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, also raised an important point about Ofsted. The chief inspector will of course consider the implications for inspections that arise from the new requirements and the statutory guidance, and will reflect these in future inspections. Ofsted is also seeking to appoint an HMI lead for citizenship and PSHE. Their role will be to keep abreast of developments in this area and oversee the training of inspectors in the light of the new expectations on schools. On 10 March, HMCI announced that her first major thematic review will be on the curriculum. This will include consideration of PSHE and will inform decisions about follow-up work in this important area.

Amendment 12F in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Watson, is about including the statutory guidance in the regulations and making all regulations subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. I am grateful for the points he made and want to reassure the House that it is government policy that guidance should not be used to circumvent the usual way of regulating a matter. If the policy is to create rules that must be followed, this should be achieved using regulations that are subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The purpose of guidance is to aid policy implementation by supplementing legal rules. A vast range of statutory guidance is issued each year and it is important that guidance can be updated rapidly to keep pace with events.

It is my intention to consult fully on any guidance to be issued under these arrangements. I will be very happy to provide copies of the draft guidance to both Houses at that point and to discuss matters with the noble Lord and my noble friend Lord McColl, particularly the four points raised today.

On the parliamentary procedure used for the RSE and PSHE regulations, we absolutely recognise that it would be important for Parliament to scrutinise substantial changes to the existing legislative framework through the affirmative procedure. I therefore reassure noble Lords that our intention is to bring forward a comprehensive set of regulations that would amend existing legislation, set out the new duties and provide for any additional supporting measures. I also confirm that the regulations we will be making to establish the new regime will be subject to the affirmative procedure. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord is reassured of the role of Parliament in the next important phase.

I conclude by saying again how much I appreciate the amendments that have been tabled and the opportunity they have provided to discuss these issues today. I am grateful for all the contributions from noble Lords in this debate. However, I hope that I have given sufficient—

[Lord Elton (Con)]

Can my noble friend elaborate a little on what he said in reply to my noble friend Lord McColl and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss? Training teachers in a subject with which they are not comfortable is not a quick process. The Minister said that the Government would consult on this. Can he tell us what stage this process will have reached when these provisions come into effect? Sex education is not an easy subject for many people and they really should not be pushed into it until they are properly trained.

[Lord Nash]

My noble friend raises a very good point. Of course, we have to devise the content first, and we need to get on with that so that we can get on with the training. I would be very happy to discuss this further and will write to him with more details.

Having said all that, I hope that I have given sufficient reassurance to convince noble Lords that their amendments are unnecessary and that our proposals as they stand will go far enough in driving improvements, without being overly prescriptive, and strike the right balance. I am delighted to have presented the Commons amendments to the House today. These measures will make a genuinely important contribution to children’s safety and their personal development. I hope the House shares my enthusiasm and will support these Commons amendments.

Education: Unregistered Schools

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Thursday 14th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

We are not specifically looking at madrassahs but we will be covering institutions such as those to which the noble and learned Baroness referred in our call for evidence, which has just closed. We will consider all this in the legislation we propose to bring forward in relation to institutions teaching above six to eight hours a week.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is looking for bad conduct. Does he agree that he is also seeing a good deal of very valuable instruction given to children who need to be integrated into our society and are handicapped in many ways because of their ethnic or geographic origin?

[Lord Nash]

We are concerned about the point my noble friend makes and about isolated communities, which is an area that Louise Casey has been asked to look at to see how we can improve integration. We are very active in our whole-school approach to making sure that children are brought up to understand enough about the different religions and beliefs in this country that they can be prepared for life in modern Britain.

Schools: Health and Well-being

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Monday 15th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I agree entirely with the noble Lord about the seriousness of this issue. We are doing what we can in schools. As I said, this is a key focus for the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Health. Many of my department’s priorities are designed around the need to reduce childhood obesity. However, despite our programmes, it still seems to be an issue. We will be publishing our plan on this shortly.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, when my noble friend receives the copious briefing on sugar that he would expect after this debate, could he make sure that he also pays close attention to the substitutes that may replace it when it is reduced in consumption and what the effect of those is on the health of the people who consume them?

[Lord Nash]

I assure my noble friend that I shall make sure that that happens.

Academies: Special Educational Needs

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I will write to the noble Baroness in the terms she requires. I can certainly tell her that she will find the headline figure she is looking for very reassuring.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, in light of the importance for the progress of SEN children of the role of SEN co-ordinators, both by focusing the attention of any school in which they are placed on the needs of those children and in advising parents and children on appropriate placement, will the Minister tell us why, as I now understand is the case, some schools are exempted from the duty of having such a co-ordinator?

[Lord Nash]

I have already answered the point in relation to 16-19 academies but all other schools must have a SENCO, and we have funded more than 10,000 new SENCOs since 2009. We have funded more than 1,000 teachers to get postgraduate SEN qualifications. We are also investing heavily in the Achievement for All programme, which is reaching many schools, to help leaders improve their SEN provision.

Education: Citizenship Studies

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Monday 30th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

Ofsted reported last year that it found that in primary schools citizenship was “thriving” and that in secondary schools the quality of citizenship education was stronger than in its 2010 survey. It also found that head teachers recognised the rich contribution the subject makes to pupils’ learning, their personal development and the ethos of the school. We have substantially improved the citizenship curriculum from the previous, rather issues-based, syllabus and we are now enhancing the requirement to teach about British institutions and values.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

Will my noble friend take into account the enormous change that has come over our society since the middle of the last century, at which stage the lifeblood of the country flowed through the churches, cathedrals, mosques, meeting houses, temples and synagogues? The actual morality that was the underpinning fabric of good citizenship could not escape people because it was put before their eyes every week. Now that that has gone, will my noble friend talk to his colleagues in other departments to ensure that there is a link between citizenship and practical experience of the teaching of all-faith religious knowledge? That way, people will understand what it is we want them to do.

[Lord Nash]

My noble friend makes a very good point. I believe that all schools should teach about all religions and about respect for all religions. However, I will take his point back.

Children: Racist and Islamophobic Bullying

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

My department pays significant attention to this area and has a particular group of people who carry out due diligence for it. It is also looking at concerns or issues about extremism in schools. We are heavily focused on this.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell us what guidance and support trainee teachers get in methods of dealing with this sort of abuse and bullying and how that is built on in their continuing development programmes?

[Lord Nash]

We recently reduced the length of the guidance to schools on bullying from 481 pages, which of course nobody can absorb, to 11. There is a view that we may have gone slightly too far, and we are looking again at whether we should improve certain aspects. Of course, all teachers should receive behaviour management training in ITT. We are also substantially improving the amount of in-school training with the expansion of teaching schools. We have a high number of SMEs and NLEs that are especially focused in this area.

Education: PISA Results

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I think that the Secretary of State wants to improve the lot particularly of underprivileged children in this country far more than he wants to be liked. He greatly values the advice of teachers and constantly has teachers and head teachers in and out of his office. It is a fact that where you have an organisation—I have seen this in business many times—that needs to go through change because it has slipped so dramatically down the international tables, we have to make a lot of changes. That is why we are making a lot of changes quickly, because we have slipped so fast. People are always reluctant to embrace change, and I understand that teachers feel under pressure from so much change. However, we have to do it if we are to do the right thing for our teachers. Both my right honourable friend and I constantly have conversations with head teachers around the country that go along the lines of, “I know you’re unpopular and I know that teachers don’t like it, but you’re doing the right thing. Keep going”.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend give us a little more insight into the view that he takes of the comparison between examination systems—their design, their management and use—in competitor countries? How do they differ from ours, and is that in itself one element that needs to be improved?

[Lord Nash]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that question. We have looked at examination systems across the world in improving the examination systems in this country. We have reduced, or rather will be reducing—again, going to the point about turning the ship around quickly, a lot of these reforms have not even come into effect yet—the number of modules and the amount of coursework and continuous assessment in exams, and we will be reducing the scandal of equivalence that went on in recent years. You could take a higher diploma in construction, a subject that even someone as hamfisted as myself would probably pass because there were no exams at all and it was entirely continuous assessment, and it counted for four GCSE equivalents. I could give noble Lords many other examples of exams that were massively overrated, doing their pupils no favours at all and not valued by employers. We have taken into account a lot of what we have seen in international systems in our reform of the exam system.

Education: Reform of GCSEs

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Tuesday 11th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. On the timetable, we are now consulting on the subject content and Ofqual is consulting on the regulations. The consultation on subject content ends on 20 August and Ofqual’s consultation ends two weeks later. We plan to publish final versions of both in September or October. The awarding organisations then have about six months to develop their detailed subject specifications and it will take approximately six months for those to be accredited by Ofqual. The full subject specifications should, therefore, be available in September 2014 for first teaching in September 2015 in all the subjects we have mentioned except languages, where first teaching will not be until September 2016. We believe that is ample time for teachers to prepare.

On the point about English and maths going through the curriculum, spelling, punctuation and grammar are worth 5% of marks in history, geography and English literature, and we have increased that to 20% in English language. In science, we are making sure that maths is much more prevalent.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, coursework is a very valuable and flexible means of teaching but it is notoriously difficult to moderate, certainly in history and geography and doubtless in other subjects. The decision to withdraw weight from that element of examination marking is very welcome. The period chosen for the forthcoming consultation coincides with the most disrupted period of timetabling in the secondary sector and the peak workload of the examination authorities, on whose contribution there should also, presumably, be consultation. It also, of course, coincides with the holidays. Is the noble Lord certain that this period is long enough?

[Lord Nash]

We believe it will be long enough. It is important that schools can see the full picture of reform to GCSEs, A-levels, the curriculum and the accountability framework at the same time. As I said, we do not think it is fair on pupils to continue with the current system for any longer than we need to.

Young People: Personal Finances

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord Nash

Thursday 7th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

There will be a Statement on this later. It remains part of the core curriculum but it is not a mandatory GCSE.

[Lord Elton]

Following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, does my noble friend agree that if eventually all the electorate were to realise that you cannot throughout your life spend more than you get, they would be more accepting of Budgets that would reduce the deficit and get this country back to where it should be?

[Lord Nash]

I agree entirely with my noble friend.