Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Elis-Thomas and Baroness Morgan of Ely

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly on the issue of devolution of S4C. In this rapidly evolving digital environment, it would not be sensible to attempt to devolve responsibility for broadcasting in its entirety to Wales. Broadcasting institutions play a vital role in creating that common cultural citizenship for people across the UK. That would not be strengthened by any attempt to define responsibility for them among its constituent parts. We should acknowledge that the broadcasting landscape is changing very rapidly and that there is no guarantee that the current structures will remain in future. In the meantime, it is vital that the UK role is reinforced by measures aimed at strengthening the particular contribution which broadcasters make in each of those constituent parts: improving the accountability of UK broadcasting institutions to the National Assembly and to Welsh viewers and listeners is vital. This improved accountability can best be delivered by strengthening the position of Welsh Ministers with regard to appointments made to the regulatory bodies governing broadcasting in Wales—I am sorry if I have veered off the point of S4C directly, but that is an important point to underline.

I now turn to the issue of devolving responsibility for S4C to the National Assembly. At first glance, it seems an absolute no-brainer. Like the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I have worked for S4C: my first ever job was to be responsible for photocopying the “Fireman Sam” scripts. However, unless there are strong safeguards for the continued overall funding of the channel, devolution carries great risks. That overnight decision to remove the vast majority of S4C funding from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to the BBC with absolutely no discussion with the channel was an immense insult. As the BBC is not devolved, S4C’s fate now lies to a large extent with the BBC. The current system is certainly unsatisfactory but, until we have a clear financial commitment from the Government to give the Welsh Government the money, it would be unwise to risk this great institution of broadcasting in Wales.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as we have heard, we currently have substantial change in the structure of broadcasting. The BBC is going through major changes. The BBC Trust is moving out as a way of managing the BBC; personally, I welcome that. Ofcom is now playing a far stronger role in the whole question of content at the BBC. As part of the BBC structure, there will be from now on not only a director for Wales but also a member of the BBC board. So we have a new system of devolution internally inside the BBC. I was there at the time of the discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, and we were surprised at what we were offered by the then Government, which was the model of a traditional broadcasting authority. I have never believed that that was what was really required, and I still believe that we need to look at some stage at the governance of digital platforms in Wales and the rest of the UK, as well as internationally. We need to look at these issues in a new way.

I am anticipating what the Minister is going to say. Far be it from me to disagree with my noble friend on this issue, with his experience as someone who was a member of the S4C board, but now is not the time to disrupt relationships; now is the time to strengthen them—and to strengthen the relationship practically between S4C as a production body and BBC Wales and the other platforms active in digital production in Wales.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Elis-Thomas and Baroness Morgan of Ely

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, this amendment, which concerns sea fishing, is a little bit complicated, so I hope that noble Lords will bear with me.

The Welsh Government already have executive competence for fisheries functions in the Welsh zone. In other words, it is now up to Welsh Ministers to determine what happens in relation to fishing anywhere within the 12-mile zone of Wales. This power is now extended to allow Welsh Government Ministers to have executive powers over Welsh fishing boats, whether they are in Welsh waters or UK waters. Take a Welsh fishing boat that is fishing off the Norfolk coast, which is within British fishery limits and would currently be subject to the licensing rules set out by UK Ministers. In future, when this power is transferred, it will be up to Welsh Ministers, by their rules, to license those Welsh fishing boats, whether they are in Welsh waters or in UK waters—obviously excluding Scottish waters.

That is all very nice and dandy for Welsh Government Ministers. However, there will be no oversight of Welsh Ministers because the Assembly—not the Government but the Assembly Members, like me—would not have any say on or sight of what is happening because the Assembly lacks the legislative competence to regulate fishing activities beyond the area of the Welsh zone. These are currently UK Minister powers, and so we come back to the issue of the alignment between legislative and executive functions.

This will become increasingly more important with Brexit on the horizon, because fishing is, of course, an area of devolved competence. The executive powers that are being transferred are the powers to require Welsh fishing boats to have a licence before they can fish outside the Welsh zone. For example, the licence could specify that you cannot fish for certain types of fish or that you must use approved fishing methods. At the moment, these fall under the EU common fisheries policy. Scotland currently has the legislative competence in relation to both the Scottish zone and Scottish fishing boats outside that area. The proposed amendment seeks simply to bring the Welsh Assembly’s legislative competence in line with the Scottish legislative competence and help align the Assembly’s legislative competence with Welsh Ministers’ executive fisheries functions. I hope that that is clear. I beg to move.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I support this amendment from my noble friend Lady Morgan. It is in line with a more general issue that I raised earlier about the relationship between the executive competence of Welsh Ministers and the parallel competence, where it currently applies, of UK Ministers, and the competence of the Assembly itself and its ability to legislate and scrutinise. This is a fundamental issue and flaw in the Bill that we are now discussing. It is particularly reprehensible in the case of fishing.

I had the proud duty of trying to represent the northern part of Cardigan Bay. This will be well known to the Minister because he was based in the middle of Cardigan Bay for a very long time and, as far as I know, may still have a bolthole somewhere in the region—I will not pursue that in this debate. He also had a role further south-west in Milford Haven and so will know well the nature of the Welsh fishing industry and how it has been denuded over the years as a result of the reduction in the number of vessels and, more recently, the activity undertaken by the Welsh fisheries association with strong support from the Welsh Government in restoring and developing inshore fishing in order to ensure that we have product to promote Welsh fisheries as part of the Welsh food and drink initiative, which is currently the flagship policy of the Welsh Government. Therefore, I ask the Minister to take a further look at this.

It is essential, in my view, that we should be able to have direct oversight of our natural resources and not be in a situation where the oversight of the natural resources of Wales—in this case, the increasingly important marine resources—is located elsewhere.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, this Bill proposes that the Assembly will gain competence over all renewable energy generating projects of up to 350 megawatts in Wales and in Welsh territorial waters. Amendment 55A suggests that the UK Government have gone too far in their intention to reserve their power to legislate over electricity, including the generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity. Although of course we recognise that it is important to have a single market in energy, ideally not just in the UK but across the EU as a whole, we contend that under the system proposed by the UK Government opportunities for the development of energy production in Wales will be stifled.

Here, I should probably declare an interest. It is not a current interest but an interest that I had in the past while I was working for an energy company in Wales. Part of my remit was to help develop a significant wind farm in mid-Wales. Let me tell you that the legislative process was chaos. The Welsh Government had more or less invited wind farm companies to develop wind farms in specific areas in Wales, but the decision as to whether permission could be given to develop a large wind farm was the responsibility not of the Welsh Government but of the UK Government.

On top of that, the wind farm needed to be connected to the grid. A 132 kV line—that is, a small electricity line on a pole—from the wind farm to the main national grid needed to be approved, not by the national Government but by the local authority. This could be called in by the National Assembly. These little electricity lines then needed to be connected to a large electricity substation—the places where you see the twirly bits in areas where the electricity goes in. That would convert the voltage from 132 kV to 400 kV, which is for the national grid. The responsibility to allow the building of the substation lay with local government, which again could be called in by the Welsh Government. Responsibility for the national grid and the decision as to whether to build the large power lines on pylons rested with the UK Government.

The whole system was chaos. It was no wonder that, in the end, the company threw up its arms in horror and walked away from the project, having already invested a not insignificant amount of money. Unless the associated consents for devolved electricity generation rest in Wales, the chaos is likely to continue.

I will touch briefly now on the limitation of the level at which Welsh Government approval in relation to electricity is set. The Bill proposes that the Assembly will gain competence over all renewable energy generating projects of up to 350 megawatts in Wales and in Welsh territorial waters. Our concern is that this figure is arbitrary. The Silk commission attempted to provide justification for this limit, but the situation in Wales has moved on considerably since those days. Since the Silk commission looked at the issue, we have seen ambitious projects such as the tidal lagoons progress and proposals for huge tidal lagoons introduced. I know that we are still waiting for the green light—and I will be extremely interested to hear what the strike price will be eventually on this project—but, whether you are a supporter or not, these plans are very far advanced.

In this amendment we suggest that the limit should be increased to 2,000 megawatts. I accept that that is just as arbitrary a figure. Therefore, will the Minister confirm why a level of 350 megawatts was suggested and why we cannot increase it? What is the rationale behind that? If we do not change it now, would there be any scope for us to change it in the future? What would the process for that be? I beg to move.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for moving this amendment. Her description of what happened with the history of substantial onshore wind projects in Wales was absolutely correct. For much of that period I had responsibility as chair of the environment committee of the National Assembly, which produced a substantial report on energy and planning. My difficulty is the difficulty to which she alluded; yet again we are placing a cap on the potential development of natural resources in Wales that does not make sense in terms of energy policy or indeed in terms of the potential for development of natural resources for the future.

There is a separation of generation capacity at different levels. There is the grid, as we have already heard, for the over 400 kilovolt—but there is also the separation of powers in relation to the internal grids provided by the electricity distribution companies. This affects potential smaller generation projects with individuals and small communities whether of hydro power, wind power, turbines, solar power or any other developing form of renewable energy. It means that the potential for development is being stifled because no one is taking a clear view of how these projects could be developed.

Unfortunately for the whole project, the Welsh Government intervention seeking to identify areas for development—mainly on land in public ownership—was not helpful. So for 10 years at least we lost potential capacity for energy generation and also capacity for having a proper grid connection throughout Wales. That is something that we shall have to revisit. I look enviously to Scotland, which has clear guidelines and clear demarcation in terms of the devolution of energy.

I have a particular interest in other forms of low-carbon energy, notably the potential development of small modular nuclear power that could replace the decommissioned nuclear power station at Trawsfynydd in my own part of the world. Currently nuclear power is with the UK Government in totality. But the actual capacity in terms of generation of a single modular power station is probably less than 350 megawatts. Obviously one would look for more than one unit at such a development where you have, as at Trawsfynydd, a full grid connection, land and water availability for coolant and of course a very skilled labour force that has worked in the energy industry. So the Minster needs to look again at the way in which these aspects of the Bill have been set out. In areas of natural resource, it is essential that we look to future capacity and not settle for arbitrary figures on present capacity.

I shall not ask whether the Minister is interested in introducing a protocol for energy policy, but if a protocol for natural resource in relation to water makes sense, it makes even more sense in relation to energy. I have not even mentioned the energy arriving increasingly now in Wales and as part of the Welsh grid from Ireland, where I am assured that the future development of renewable energy both onshore and offshore is likely to continue. That capacity can join the mainland European grid effectively only through Wales. All these aspects need to be considered. I hope that the Minister will be able to give the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, me and others some optimism as to the potential for future development of this natural resource.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Elis-Thomas and Baroness Morgan of Ely

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

It is worth putting on record the Labour position on some of these points. First, in relation to fuel duty, we think it will be impossible to organise separate fuel duties within the United Kingdom and probably very difficult to comply with European Union rules within countries. Those cross-border issues we have just heard about could be quite complex and difficult to police. That would be a problem for us. Of course we have genuine sympathy for the problems relating to the cost of fuel in rural areas, but we do not think that this is the mechanism by which we should be addressing it.

On natural resources tax-sharing arrangements, we do not agree that this is a good idea. Wales is not sitting on vast quantities of oil like Scotland’s and a key point to remember is that we do not tax energy production from wind, wave and water in the same way as we do barrels of oil, so there would probably not be much in terms of tax return anyway—we would probably have to invent new taxes. On the issue of corporation tax, one of the most disappointing aspects of the Scottish referendum campaign was to see Plaid Cymru members actively supporting independence for Scotland. It was not surprising but was a little disappointing, because we know that one key thing Alex Salmond wanted to do was to reduce corporation tax 3% below that of the rest of the UK. That would have done untold damage to Welsh companies. It would have adversely affected Welsh companies, so we did not understand why Plaid Cymru was quite so enthusiastically supporting independence.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I spoke on this matter in this House during a debate in June. Let me make it clear that my support was for the right of the Scottish people to express their own self-determination. They have done so, with marvellous consequences for the rest of us. We would not be debating in the way we are tonight if they had not done that.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

That is great to hear, but there are some aspects of Salmond’s policy commitments that I think would have been problematic for Wales and it is worth noting those.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Elis-Thomas and Baroness Morgan of Ely

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Anderson has correctly suggested that at the very least matters pertaining to the electoral arrangements for the National Assembly for Wales should be subject to agreement by the Assembly before implementation. That sentiment has been echoed once again by the Presiding Officer in Wales. He noted that,

“in the Scottish settlement, the power to make arrangements about Scottish Parliament elections is now divided between Scottish Ministers and the Secretary of State”.

Surely this is the very least we should ask for the Assembly. We echo that sentiment and therefore support the position of my noble friend Lord Anderson that the Assembly should agree to electoral changes and that these should not be imposed from Westminster.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (PC)]

Amendment 10, which is in the name of my noble friend Lord Wigley, my parliamentary leader, and myself, is drafted again with the support of the Electoral Reform Society Cymru, which has been widely trailed in this debate and which I am sure it appreciates. This is to find a way of ensuring that the electoral system of the National Assembly is determined by the Assembly itself. The Order in Council procedure would enable both Houses to debate this matter before the transfer of functions of responsibility happen.

As in our earlier amendment, this amendment would ensure that there would have to be a two-thirds majority of voting Assembly Members. I take advantage of this amendment to impress on the Government that there are more checks and balances in the regulation of democracy which can be established for a democratic body in terms of its autonomous function. The idea that legislation for elections can be regulated only by Westminster fails to recognise the importance of the two-thirds majority principle, which we have established significantly in the constitution of Wales over the past 15 years.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Elis-Thomas and Baroness Morgan of Ely

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

The noble Lord makes valid points about clarity about where the powers are and the fact that information to the public is crucial so that they understand who is responsible for what. There is still a degree of confusion about this and we need to think it through in a very clear way if we are looking at a much more structured response to the devolution settlement within the United Kingdom as a whole.

I now turn to Plaid Cymru’s amendment to link the reserved powers to an immediate transfer of the recommendations of Silk 2. It is worth emphasising that the whole Labour Party feels quite positive about the vast majority of the recommendations contained in Silk 2. The case for further devolution of power has been well made by the commission. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for his work on that commission and welcome him to the Front Bench. We are delighted to see him there. It is important that people understand that the Welsh Government have also responded positively to the recommendations.

With this amendment, Plaid has gone further than Silk in recommending, for example, the wholesale transfer of power over broadcasting, as was suggested, and energy, where the recommendations by Silk are far more nuanced. We are anxious to support many of the recommendations in Silk 2, but we feel that it would be more appropriate for us to include those recommendations within an election manifesto so that we can have the endorsement of the general public for this additional significant transfer of powers.

On Plaid Cymru’s Amendment 3, I do not blame them for attempting this power grab—that is what you would expect of nationalists—but to remove all current exceptions to current permitted areas of the Assembly would entail a huge extra amount of responsibility and the duplication of roles that are better shared at UK level. It would seem rather unnecessary that in the field of agriculture, where Wales already has legislative competence, we should establish our own legislation on, for example, scientific or other experimental procedures in relation to animals. Do we really want to establish our own agricultural import and export rules? Imagine the bureaucracy that that would entail. For every job that we would have to create to make that work, we would have to cut one from our health or education services or from another area that currently receives funding. We understand what the amendment is trying to do but think that it is going a bit too far.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

This is about competence. It is the ability to do things, were one wanting to do them in that way. In the United Kingdom, we already have institutions, such as the Joint Nature Conservation Committee, which are virtually federal and in which powers and responsibilities are shared between Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This is not about, of necessity, compelling the Welsh Government or the National Assembly to accept the competence; it is the indication, especially after the Supreme Court ruling of July, that the competence of the National Assembly in the current model is based on those definitions, made by subject in Schedule 7 of the 2006 Act, with exceptions. By deleting exceptions, I sought to highlight the nature of the competence and the possibility of using the reduction of exceptions as a way of translating further powers.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

I understand what the noble Lord is saying. The problem is probably that we need a much more detailed discussion about what those exemptions should be and to what extent they should or should not be duplicated. If this is a probing amendment, that is fine—we understand that that is the case. But taking this big step at the moment would be wrong.

Finally, I ask the Minister why an amendment on reserve powers has not been submitted if the Government have changed their position. Why cannot we now get on with the job? We know that there is cross-party consensus on this; let us not waste any more time.