European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Elis-Thomas Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elis-Thomas (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it is always a privilege to follow my former colleague from down the Corridor and to hear him speak so eloquently on human rights issues, on which I fully agree with him. I will not engage with his comments on the internal affairs of Scotland but I will speak about the consequences of this Bill in relation to the internal structure of the United Kingdom and the relationships between the existing and emerging devolved institutions in relation to mainland Europe.

Obviously I agree that the Bill as it stands does not contain a provision which gives rise to the need for any legislative consent motion on the part of any of the devolved Parliaments and Assemblies—but its implications and the developing negotiation position are matters that have profound concerns for all of the devolved Assemblies and the Scottish Parliament, and for the Administrations and Governments. That was recognised most recently by the Welsh Government’s White Paper. As noble Lords can see, White Papers emerging from the Welsh Government seem to have a different cover from the White Papers that emerge from the UK Government—they are red rather than white. I do not know the reason for that; I will have to ask the First Minister.

The Welsh Government White Paper emphasises clearly the constitutional situation we are now in. The section on constitutional and devolution issues states:

“Withdrawal from the EU represents a fundamental constitutional change for Wales and the UK as a whole. Returning to pre-1973 practice is simply not an option since devolution was not then part of the UK’s political structure”.


I am not sure whether the implications of this have been clearly understood even within the departments of the UK Government. We are not talking about repatriating legislation currently with the European Union simply to this House—because how can it be argued that European legislation, which is the basis of Scottish legislation, Northern Ireland legislation and detailed constitutional practice, should somehow need to be filtered through this House before it is patriated by those devolved legislatures which are part of the structure of the United Kingdom?

The Leader of the House referred in passing to the role of the devolved Administrations. However, it is not only a matter of engagement. We are emerging equal constitutional partners in this United Kingdom and, in a sense, there is a parallel between what is happening in the process between the United Kingdom and the European Union and the process already in place within the United Kingdom in relation to devolution. That is why I am not as distressed as some of my colleagues about the changes on mainland Europe, but I am concerned that the United Kingdom authorities understand that in the coming negotiations the devolved Administrations, Assemblies and Parliaments are not just institutions to whom something may be reported when the UK Government decide that it is appropriate.

The whole question of the Joint Ministerial Committee mechanisms now has to be faced urgently before we can have a proper negotiation that involves the whole of the United Kingdom. These JMC mechanisms were created for a different purpose—to ensure regular discussions between Ministers about sharing policy and dealing with cross-border issues. Indeed, a very distinguished former UK civil servant has said that the JMC machinery was more of a talking shop for the exchange of information and was not created as a decision-making body with powers.

To make negotiation effective—unless the UK Government believe that it is appropriate for them to take control of the whole negotiation—there has to be a way in which devolved Administrations can be a part of the negotiation structure. Otherwise, at the end of that process, the peoples of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—as we have heard already very eloquently from the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames—will feel increasingly isolated from the activities of the UK Government.

We estimate that there are 5,000 pieces of legislation currently in force in devolved areas, which would need to be re-evaluated as a result of the negotiations that will change our relationship with the European Union. Not even the great repeal Bill will be able to deal with all of that. How many pieces of subordinate legislation would we be faced with in the National Assembly for Wales to deal with it? I am out of time—but so, soon, may be this Government, if they do not understand the issues that I have been explaining.

English Votes on English Laws

Lord Elis-Thomas Excerpts

Thursday 2nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the noble Lord’s final point, I genuinely believe that if we leave matters as they are without seeking to address the “English question”, we will actually be weakening the union. This is something that we have to address. As to the noble Lord’s description of this as a guess, there has been an extraordinary amount of debate on and consideration of which process to adopt to take us forward in addressing the West Lothian question. I refer to what happened in the last Parliament. It is now becoming increasingly urgent that we get on with doing something—as I say, for all of us who believe in the union, this is urgent—and therefore the Government have come forward with their proposal. My right honourable friend the leader of the other place has made it clear today that, in about a year’s time, there will be a proper review of the way in which this is operated, using Bills that are actually happening. Rather than continue to debate and consider options and not get anywhere or make any progress, let us follow this proposal and then come back and have a look at it.

As to the role of the Speaker, I would make two points to the noble Lord. When considering whether to certify a Bill as being for England only or for England and Wales, one thing the Speaker will be required to do is consider whether this is a matter that has already been devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The onus will be clearly on the Government in their drafting of Bills, but I believe that the requirement placed on the Speaker is a reasonable one and we will follow our responsibilities in ensuring that we play our part in making this work.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (PC)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement in this House today and I warmly welcome it. There is nothing new here. Those of us who have operated devolved legislation recognise nothing here except the development of such legislation in relation to England. Does the Minister agree that the definition of legislative competence that has been pursued in the devolved legislatures is exactly what the Speaker of the House of Commons is being called on to follow in deciding whether a Bill is for England? Does she also accept that we already have the territorial competencies and applications set out in every Bill that goes through both Houses of Parliament, and that we are, at last, dragging the House of Commons towards electronic voting, which obviously, as a former Member of that House, I also support?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do not want to comment on the processes of voting in the other place, but I do not think that they are getting as far as electronic voting. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his warm welcome of what the Government are bringing forward today and agree with the points that he made in his contribution.

Implications of Devolution for England

Lord Elis-Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

No, they will not. No one in this House represents an area of the United Kingdom. We are all United Kingdom Peers; we do not have representative responsibilities, so the change in the Commons will not affect the way in which we do our business.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (PC)]

My Lords—

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, it might be appropriate to hear from a Welsh Peer and then we will come back to England.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, I am very happy for you to return to England as soon as possible. I have one simple question for the Government. It seems from some references in the Leader of the House’s Statement in the other place that he is inventing a new polity—a place called England and Wales. What is the constitutional basis of this place, if it ever existed in history, which I doubt, being a sort of cultural historian? Since devolution, it is very clear that every piece of legislation which appears before this House, or indeed within the devolved Parliaments, is defined according to its competence and its territorial application. Therefore, there is no place called England and Wales. Legislation is either for the United Kingdom, for England, for Northern Ireland or for Scotland. The Government must be clear about that. I do not wish to go back to the Tudor period.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do not think that anybody is asking the noble Lord to go back to the Tudor period. As set out in the Command Paper, there are various points of detail that will clearly be discussed further before any changes are implemented in the way that the other place operates. A Bill, when it comes to this House, will be dealt with in exactly the same way as it is now.

Arrangement of Business

Lord Elis-Thomas Excerpts

Monday 5th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, perhaps I may speak on behalf of some of the bewildered. My noble friend the Leader of the House is rightly reluctant, as I think all noble Lords should be, about simply overriding the learned views of our expert clerks. If an amendment is inadmissible, why is not possible for the four great gentlemen, the four noble Lords who drafted the amendment—on what is obviously a red-hot political issue, let us not pretend otherwise—to go away and draft an amendment that is admissible? Why are they so insistent on pushing through an amendment over the rulings of our learned clerks, whom we are accustomed to recognise for the validity of their judgments? Why is it suddenly the judgment that we should override them? I cannot see the necessity for that.

I think that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition has made a wrong judgment call. She is anxious to pursue this issue, and why not? It might damage the Government—but to do so by overriding the clerks seems an absurd and clumsy way of proceeding. I suggest that she or her noble friends who have signed the amendment should go away and cook up a sensible amendment. They are learned and experienced noble Lords, so why on earth can they not cook up an amendment that is admissible?

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, reference has been made to the signing of this amendment by my noble friend Lord Wigley. He consulted me before doing so because, in a party of two, consultation is essential. I rise to speak on this issue because for 12 years as the Presiding Officer in Cardiff I always took the advice of the clerks. It is not possible for a parliamentary assembly to function without taking seriously the advice of its clerks. However, we are in a different situation in this Chamber. We are a self-regulating House, which means that there is a democratic and moving relationship. The Speakership of this House—I defer to the Lord Speaker in this—is divided between the Leader of the House and the other parties in this House. The discussions that take place behind the Speaker’s Chair—as it would be in the other place—are essential to the progress of the business of the House.

We have to face two issues here. First, the Government have a right to take their business through, but the Opposition, along with other Members of the House, have a duty to oppose that business when they have the opportunity to do so. That is what is at loggerheads in this situation. I ask the Leader of the House to reconsider his tactic of continually withdrawing the opportunity for the rest of this House to vote on this matter, because that also is contrary to the principles of this House and of parliamentary democracy.

[Lord Dixon-Smith]

My Lords, perhaps a rather naive Back-Bencher on this side might intervene. We continue to discuss this matter in the context of a specific amendment. That, to me, is not the point at issue. The point at issue is that if we accept this amendment in its present form, against the advice of the clerks, we open the door for any Member of this House to do precisely the same thing again—and again. It is my private view that if we go down that road, those who have tabled this amendment and are insisting on it will live to regret the day, and the future administration of this House will be infinitely more difficult than it has been—or indeed is at this present moment.