Wales: National Assembly Elections

Lord Elis-Thomas Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I begin by declaring an interest as I am in receipt of an Assembly pension. I am also on the board of the Wales Governance Centre, which is part of Cardiff University and is partly funded by the Assembly Commission.

The point I start from is diametrically opposed to that expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. As a Liberal Democrat, I continue to support the recommendations of the Richard commission for the single transferable vote in Wales. However, at the start of the Assembly, we as Liberal Democrats accepted the compromise of the list system as being the furthest we could get towards an element of proportionality, and I certainly accept that we are not going to get STV in the near future. Therefore, in general I welcome the proposals in this Green Paper.

I particularly welcome the acceptance of what will become the 30:30 split under the new boundaries, which is the preferred option of the Secretary of State. That is an acceptable compromise. It produces more proportionality, which is very welcome, but I accept that it maintains the dual system that Liberal Democrats do not believe is ideal.

I was an Assembly Member for 12 years. I am pleased to see three former colleagues here today—in fact, we are in danger of this becoming the old group discussing things again. I was a constituency Assembly Member and it is true to say that the role of a regional Assembly Member is very different. Those differences can cause friction, but there is no proposed change in the system here; we are simply looking at the split between constituency and regional lists.

As well as being more proportional and therefore fairer, I believe that 30:30 would be very much easier administratively. Differing boundaries are very complex, particularly for electors but also for political parties and people who run elections. Incidentally, a longer list in each region would also help gender balance. It would increase the number of women and ethnic minority candidates coming forward. STV lists tend to do that and in this case the list for the Assembly would operate in a similar way. It is obviously easier for political parties but it is important to remember that having coterminous constituencies for Parliament and the Assembly particularly would help civic society and electors by removing an element of confusion. In this I agree wholeheartedly with Peter Hain who was entirely right when he said:

“Having different boundaries creates a great deal of confusion for voters, for parties and for the wider public”.

It would also reduce the cost—more than £2.5 million over 10 years—of having to review different sets of boundaries, first for Parliament and then for the Assembly, making it almost an endless treadmill of boundary reviews.

I totally reject the idea that the 30:30 split could possibly be two-Member wards. That is a Labour Party idea which is designed to remove the element of proportionality. Proportionality was inherent in the offer made to the people of Wales in the vote that they took in the referendum at the end of the last century—a vote that was won very narrowly and that I am pretty certain would not have been won if proportionality had not been there. I believe that 30:30 would be fairer in proportional terms as it would reduce the chances of a party winning a majority of seats on a minority of votes in the ballot box. It is worth noting that in 2011, under the current 40:20 split, the Labour Party won 50% of the seats on just short of 40% of the vote. So when the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, asks us which party would benefit from a 30:30 split I would answer that no particular party would benefit but one party certainly benefits from the current system and that benefit would be lost under the new one.

I want to talk now about process. The voting system is a reserved matter—that was decided by the previous Labour Government when the Government of Wales Act was drafted. The power to decide the electoral system could have been devolved to the Welsh Assembly but it was not. The Assembly had no say in the previous changes, such as the ban on dual candidacy which came in in the 2006 Act. I know that the Assembly feels it should express an opinion. It is absolutely right that it should do so, but it is important to remember that there are no legally binding results to that opinion. As a strong devolutionist, I would have preferred the system to be written differently but that is the system that the Labour Government gave us.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. Would the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, agree that, despite the fact that there are no legal powers within the Government of Wales Acts for the Assembly to have organised consent, the devolution principle and its constitutional basis must surely point to consent being obtained in one way or another from the National Assembly for changes to its own structure?

[Baroness Randerson]

That sets an interesting train of thought. As the legislation currently stands, we would move to 30:30 under the current Government of Wales Act. Would consent be needed to adhere to the current legislation? I do not think that would necessarily be the case. The concept of Assembly consent—which has never come up before in this context, so far as I can recall—is desirable and I would hope it would happen, but it does not necessarily follow that it has to be because of the status of the current legislation.

I want to deal with the other issues of significance in this paper. A really important issue is the end of the ban on dual candidacy. In 1999 and 2003, I was a candidate for the list and for constituency seats, along with members of all other parties—including the Labour Party. Dual candidacy ensured vibrant energetic campaigns in individual constituencies. Candidates who knew that they were not likely to win a constituency would nevertheless fight hard in an individual constituency because it contributed to the list campaign. The loss of dual candidacy reduced the level of campaigning, particularly as regards the list vote. As a result, we had a loss of democracy in Wales.

The ban came out of the ether, as far as I could see. It seemed to be a purely political measure introduced in 2006 by the Labour Party, and it clearly penalised smaller parties. Think about the mathematics. A party has to have 40 constituency candidates; and now, under the current system, with a ban on dual candidacy, it probably has to have another 25, with five candidates for each of the five regions. Under the old system, if you stood as a candidate in both a constituency and for the list, you could, as a party probably get away with a slate of 40 candidates. Now you have to have effectively 65. That makes the situation difficult for small parties, and the system was designed to do that.

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[Lord Roberts of Conwy]

The Opposition, as always, put forward their own independent case and I would have to consider what the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has just said. The main drive towards separation has come from the National Assembly. I do not think it has been particularly beneficial to Parliament, the Assembly or Welsh electors. The Assembly has gained more powers following a positive referendum—provided, after all, by central government and on a low turnout with little or no opposition to speak of. Most of us now recognise that, whatever our earlier views, the Assembly is here to stay and our duty is to make the best of it.

There is much more to be gained by collaboration between the National Assembly and this Parliament than from the mock tug of war for more powers than has been the feature of the past. The willing establishment by the Secretary of State of the Silk commission, its membership and remit proves that there is a new, pro-devolutionary spirit abroad and the National Assembly should welcome it. It could begin to reciprocate by improving its communication with this place. I give just one example: last month, the Assembly Government published their first annual report for the Assembly term 2011-16 with a foreword by the First Minister. I obtained a 19-page summary of the report entitled Programme for Government. I was not able to get the full 600-page document: it was not available to us here in the Library or the Printed Paper Office, although I am glad to say that it is available today thanks to the indefatigable industry of Mr Quin at the Printed Paper Office. When I have finished perusing this somewhat substantial document, I shall make sure that it is in the Library for other Members.

Even the summary refers to a number of White Papers, draft measures and strategy documents. They were not available either and I doubt whether they are available now. They may be on the web but they should be as available—and in the same form—as the Green Paper we are discussing now. The least we should have is a list of Assembly publications and their whereabouts.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I am afraid I have been provoked, because we go back a long time in this discussion. Will the noble Lord accept that the National Assembly for Wales is an electronic democracy in which everything is digitally available?

[Lord Roberts of Conwy]

I agree. Even this tome, which I can barely lift, is available on the web but even the website reference is complex enough. Also, I really do not think that you can read 660 pages easily on the web.

My real point is this. As a consequence, most of us—of course I speak for myself—are pretty ignorant about what goes on in Cardiff Bay, which begs the question: is it right for this Parliament to devolve powers and then wash its hands of the use made of those powers? I do not think it is right. Those powers involve the use of British taxpayers’ money, and we are accountable for how that money is spent. It is irresponsible on our part. We should know what is being done and the National Assembly should be proud to tell us. It may be that we require a sub-committee of the Constitution Committee as the equivalent, as it were, of the Welsh Affairs Committee, to consider developments in Wales. Better communications and a ready supply of documents are only one aspect of improved relationships. There could be more official visits to Cardiff Bay, and I commend the Assembly Government Minister, Edwina Hart, who has been assiduous in cultivating informative relationships with Members of this House through the good offices of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig.

Finally, I turn to the Government’s proposal to restore the right of an Assembly constituency candidate also to be on a regional list, which was the original position. I am in favour of this not only because Arbuthnott found nothing against it in Scotland but because it will help to ensure that the best candidates a party can offer—I am thinking particularly of the smaller parties—have the best chance of securing Assembly membership. We want only the best in the Assembly, and they are not all that plentiful in any party. I am aware of how rivalries between some candidates in Wales led the Labour Government to abolish in 2006 the right to dual candidacy but, as we all know, rivalry is inherent in political life and only to be expected.

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[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, we are due to finish at around six o’clock and some of us have trains to catch because we are double-jobbers. That is only a passing reference and I do not intend to spend any time on it. However, I do not think that this House should be accused of having people who are double-jobbers if they are also Members of the National Assembly for Wales. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, might have a word with the Secretary of State about improving the quality of the language used in Wales Office Green Papers.

Today we have the advantage of meeting after the National Assembly has debated this issue. I know that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, will have read carefully on the National Assembly website the record of proceedings. A Motion was debated and there was a clear vote: 43 were in favour, with one abstention and six against the proposition that the National Assembly,

“believes that no change to the current electoral arrangements should be introduced by the UK Government without the consent of the National Assembly for Wales”.

That is the issue I want to pursue in my contribution because we started a very interesting discussion during the exchange at the beginning of this debate. The First Minister made it the main theme of his rather philosophical speech in the National Assembly debate. He linked the idea of the consent of the Assembly to the nature of devolution. He takes a rather different view from that of some of the Labour Members in your Lordships’ House who are taking part in the debate today. He invited the Assembly to agree that there should be no change without consent because he regarded it as a fundamental constitutional principle, as a necessary consequence of a constitution based upon the principle of devolution. My noble friend Lord Wigley quoted similar remarks published in the Daily Post this morning, a fine newspaper for which my noble friend is himself a fine columnist. But we will move on.

I ask the Minister what consideration has been given by the UK Government to the way in which they should proceed when they make changes to the electoral arrangements or other constitutional aspects of a sister institution—an elected legislature. Here we are not dealing even with a local authority, which is the creature of a statute of another place. Of course, the National Assembly for Wales is the creature of a statute of Westminster and could be abolished. However, in reality, because of the way in which elected bodies are established and powers laid upon them, they begin to take on a democratic life and identity of their own. They have powers and affiliations on that basis.

What was interesting and even exciting for me about the debate last week in Cardiff was that there was cross-party agreement on these issues in all the speeches, if not in the final vote. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, a good friend of mine from the Vale of Glamorgan, said that the Assembly should determine its own boundaries. As one would expect, similar views were expressed by the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, Kirsty Williams, on the importance of the consent of the Assembly. There was a very interesting exchange between the former leader of Plaid Cymru and Deputy First Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones and First Minister Carwyn Jones on an issue that was brought up in your Lordships’ House—the point was made just now by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—about how we could ensure that a party with an overall majority would not use a majority of one to change the electoral system against the wishes of the other parties. When Ieuan Wyn Jones asked whether there should be a two-thirds majority of Members of the National Assembly to make any change to the electoral system, the First Minister made a very considered reply. He stated:

“Ieuan asked”—

this is how we speak to each other in Cardiff—

“whether it would be appropriate to have a two-thirds majority of Assembly Members. Better that than no vote at all. Better that than that the Assembly should express an opinion without that opinion being taken into account in any way by the UK Government. I think that that is something that should be considered in the future and that it is something that is crucial and fundamental in terms of the Assembly”.

The First Minister of Wales and leader of Welsh Labour gave an assurance that he would allow consideration of a change to the electoral system only by a two-thirds majority in the National Assembly, in order to ensure that all the views in the Assembly were considered. We should contrast that with what is likely to emerge here. The UK Government will take it upon themselves to make the decision regardless of the views of the National Assembly. We have had no assurance on the meaning of consent. One of the first words that I heard from the Secretary of State and from the Prime Minister when I was in another job in the Assembly was a reference to respect for the Assembly. I am afraid that I do not hear that very often these days. I invite the Minister to use it this evening and to confirm that respect for the Assembly will include no changes to any system in the constitution of Wales without the agreement of the Assembly. If that requires a two-thirds majority, it is clear that the present First Minister of Wales is such a democrat that he is prepared to put the interests of the Welsh constitution well above those of his own party.

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[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, it is my understanding that the commission was not consulted, but that was because what this Green Paper is about is beyond its remit. Questions have been raised about these deliberations, and I am aware of the debate last week in the National Assembly for Wales. The fact—one that has been reflected by a number of contributors to the debate—is that the electoral arrangements of the Assembly are a non-devolved matter. The matter is reserved to this Parliament. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, made the point that Wales has two Governments: it has a Government in Wales in the National Assembly and also has a Government here at Westminster. The devolution settlement agreed in the Government of Wales Acts 1998 and 2006, and the distribution of powers that was approved only last year in a referendum, retain the electoral system and arrangements for the Assembly as being matters for the Westminster Parliament.

I accept that those in Plaid Cymru who aspire to much greater powers for the National Assembly for Wales would argue the case that electoral arrangements, and possibly the system, should be devolved—albeit with a two-thirds majority—and clearly that case can be made. The Silk commission does not have within its remit the current electoral arrangements but it does have within its remit the distribution of powers between the Westminster Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. I have no doubt that representations to that effect will be made, but that is not the current devolution settlement.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

Will the Minister accept that I was not arguing on behalf of Plaid Cymru—I very rarely do, according to some of my party colleagues—but that I was reflecting the agreed consensus of the National Assembly on Tuesday? The UK Government at Westminster ignore such views at their peril.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

If I did suggest the noble Lord was expressing a party view, I did not intend to—although I think I rather know where he will come from in terms of the distribution of powers. Of course Her Majesty’s Government will have regard to the views of the Assembly, and of all who contribute. We are very keen for people to contribute. It is not the position at present that we should subcontract to the Assembly—as I think the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, put it—given that there is a settlement that has been voted by Parliament and supported in a referendum. But I repeat that we will have regard to the views of the Assembly.

There is no way we are going to change the constitutional arrangement for responsibilities when I have indicated from the outset that there is a need to do something: either have the 40 seats with the new boundaries, which would require the Boundary Commission to be given responsibility for doing that, or move to the 30:30. Of those who expressed a view, the balance was that there were merits in the 30:30 arrangement. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, said that otherwise there could be conflict or a lack of cohesion. My noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy said there would be less confusion for electors or party organisers. I think we would all accept that at the end of the day the electors are more important than the party organisers, but let us not forget that the parties and the party organisers help the wheels of democracy to turn and it is important that these wheels are properly oiled. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made the point that whatever we do, it should not be less proportional. Clearly 30:30 would not be less proportional, but if 30:30 was doubled up with Members elected by first past the post, that would be less proportional.

The point was made about the position in Scotland. It is fair to say that in Scotland the boundaries for the Westminster constituencies are different, principally because the link was not broken between the parliamentary constituency and the Scottish Parliament constituency. When the Westminster Parliament reduced from 72 to 59 pre-2005, there would have been an automatic reduction in the size of the Scottish Parliament, as intended by the 1998 legislation—I remember the debates—but by the time we got there, there was a view that that was not right, that the parliament should not decrease in size, and therefore the link was broken. That was the history of that. In 2006, the Arbuthnott commission reported that,

“most individual voters surveyed ‘claimed not to care’ about whether constituency boundaries were coterminous, and that it was ‘not an issue which would dissuade them from voting’”.

I appreciate that people have strong views on this issue and that is precisely why we are consulting on it.

On the position of the five-year fixed term, I think that there was a consensus across the Committee, given what has happened and the recognition that it was not desirable in 2015 to have elections on the same day, that the arguments that were persuasive then remain persuasive. With regard to my noble friend Lady Randerson, it is my understanding that local elections in Wales are a devolved matter, but Welsh Ministers have moved the 2016 local elections in Wales to 2017 to avoid a clash with the Assembly election. That matter has clearly been addressed.

As regards the ban on double candidacy—and the quality of any democracy is how it considers a range of parties—the point was made that it impacts more heavily on the smaller parties. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and my noble friend Lady Randerson mentioned the position of the Leader of the Welsh Conservative Party who was rewarded for his party’s success by losing his seat, which seems to be somewhat ironic. It was the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who said that if international comparisons are to be made, it is probably only the Ukraine that does this. The point was also made by the Arbuthnott report in Scotland that the electorate did not have a problem with people standing in both the individual constituency and the regional list.

On the question of double jobbing—I will certainly report the angst about the terminology—again it is quite clear that there are issues on both sides, and that is why the Government are consulting on this. I was struck by what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said about how difficult he found it. We are all declaring interests and, after the Scottish Parliament was established in 1999, I served for two years as both the Member of Parliament for Orkney and Shetland and the Member of the Scottish Parliament for Orkney. I managed to do that because I knew that I was not going to do so beyond 2001. There is an issue as to whether, if we were to go down that road, there should be some flexibility whereby people could see out a term of office to avoid a by-election, particularly if they have only one year left. However, I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said about perhaps there being an automatic election; and that is clearly a relevant consideration to take into account in a consultation.

I realise that I have probably not done justice to everyone’s comments, but I hope that I have addressed the main points raised. I assure the Committee that the contributions to the debate will be taken into account, as indeed we will pay proper respect to the views expressed in the National Assembly for Wales.