European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Eames Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

I am grateful to the noble Countess. As it happens, I had a one-sentence paragraph left at the point at which I took her intervention. I just say that these young people deserve a few minutes of our time, because it is their future and their life that we are discussing.

I wind up by saying that these young people reported to us that, the day before we met them, they had met with Shailesh Vara, Member of Parliament and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. They conveyed these same messages to him and asked how he was going to deal with the challenges of the border. They reported to us that they were told that there was, “going to be some creative thinking”. I invite the Minister to share that creative thinking with us, so that we can tell them how they can look forward to a future that is as rosy as the one they thought they had.

[Lord Eames (CB)]

My Lords, a year ago, I ventured to suggest to the House that, as the programme for the negotiation of our withdrawal from the European Union gathered momentum, the people of Northern Ireland would slowly but surely realise that they would be at the most vulnerable limits of what we were talking about in this House and in the other place. Tonight, I suggest to noble Lords that my prediction was true. That is the reason why I welcome much of the substance of what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has said to us in support of his amendment. He and I would have a slightly different emphasis on parts of it, but the basis of what he said is, I believe, of vital importance at this stage of our negotiation.

I speak about this amendment not from a party-political stance, but from more than 22 years as the Anglican Primate, not of Northern Ireland, but of all Ireland. In that time, I was able to see, day to day and night to night, some of the consequences of the turmoil that had divided Ireland and divided the communities of Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, other Members of your Lordships’ House who have served as Secretaries of State and those who have sacrificed a great deal as politicians in the cause of a lasting peace in Northern Ireland will know, we do not choose our words idly at this stage. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, referred to the young people. Those young people are but part of the segment of a community that is listening to what we are saying and, most importantly—I say this to the Government—listening to what will be the ultimate outcome of the negotiations for our withdrawal.

Beyond the technicalities of any discussions in your Lordships’ House over what will happen to the border and the island of Ireland, there is an emphasis tonight that, from living in Northern Ireland itself, I am conscious of: the growing important feature of public opinion. First, there is dismay at the continuing absence of local government in the devolved Administration. This has been debated long and hard, and there are many theories about the way forward, but it is a fact. Allied to that is the frustration among all age groups about the fact that there is no local voice to represent the people—young and old—of Northern Ireland as we reach this critical stage of the EU withdrawal process. So it is incumbent on those of us who know the day-to-day conditions to say something about it in your Lordships’ House.

The element that I want to emphasise is the human one. What we decide ultimately in the negotiations for our withdrawal will depend locally, to a large extent, on the sensitivity to what the ordinary people on the streets of Northern Ireland believe, want and are concerned about. I put the concern to which I referred as clearly as I can: we have received assurance after assurance, verbal and written, that there will be sensitivity to the position of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom—with all the changes and challenges from a Northern Ireland perspective that have already been mentioned tonight—but the fear is that, in the high-powered negotiations to draw up the final agreement, it will be very easy for certain details to be watered down, or for us not to receive the concrete assurance that is given continually to our Province and the people of Northern Ireland, simply because negotiation means compromise and means setting what the important priorities are that ought to be met and underlined to get that agreement.

The awful fear of so many people is that the assurances given, and mentioned again in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, will be part of the casualty to that process. That is why I welcome the attention that he and his colleagues have drawn tonight to these important assurances. I use the opportunity to urge Her Majesty’s Government to remember that those assurances are not just a party-political issue. They are an issue to the people who have come through the darkness of the Troubles, who have sought the light of a partial peace, yet who live with the traditional divisions between orange and green and between those who see membership of the UK as vital and those who seek constantly to look further afield.

Finally, my mind goes back not to the Belfast agreement or anything else of that nature, but way back to the Downing Street declaration, which started the whole process, in my opinion. We had to look very carefully, under the guidance of John Major and, on the other side of the Irish Sea, Albert Reynolds, at the element of consent. That element has to be protected if we want a lasting peace in a divided community, and it is that which I believe gives me the—dare I say—moral authority to remind the House of the non-party-political aspects of this amendment, and the fact that we are dealing with ordinary people who have hopes and fears, and who deserve the fullest possible attention.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Eames Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for tabling this amendment although I think that things may not be quite as difficult as he imagines. For many of us—I declare an interest here—our right to Irish citizenship is not contingent on the Belfast agreement. It goes back much further to the establishment of the common travel area. In order to set my own mind at rest, I checked with the Irish embassy after the Brexit vote to make sure of my own status. I was born in County Antrim during the war years and the answer was, “You are a citizen. You have birthright”. That did not continue indefinitely but many of us in the north have citizenship by virtue of being born, I think, when there was still a territorial claim to the entire island. I see the noble Lord, Lord Empey, nodding. That is very important to us. The numbers we are talking about are rather different from the suggestion that this is a Belfast agreement creation.

However, the underlying problems are every bit as severe as noble Lords have suggested. There are three. One is obviously the movement of people. I know that many in the Conservative Party think that ID cards are a no-no, but many noble Lords carry mobile phones which constantly give away far more about their identity. We should grow up and realise that in the present age identity and identification is absolutely routine. We need to get it right and enable people to travel. However, the issue is not only to identify the persons who have, under whatever dispensation we reach, no right to cross into the UK. I am afraid that this duty to identify ourselves would fall on all of us—probably when we do crucial things, such as register with a GP’s surgery, start a company or buy a property, and not merely when we travel. That topic really needs to be explored in full.

The second topic, which I believe is the most awkward, is the question of tariffs. Of course it depends on the negotiation that we have been talking about at some length today—what sort of issue that has to be, and how much of it can be electronic—but make no mistake: the economies are interwoven, and it cannot be thought that we will have a long queue at 260 border crossings across 300 miles. That is not a solution.

Thirdly, and I think this is a neglected but important topic, we may expect in the event of a negotiation that the agricultural support systems north and south of the Irish border will diverge. That creates new incentives to do something that has long been done—about which amusing stories can be told, because it is not only oil tankers that were put into fields but, of course, beasts. It is extraordinarily important that we address issues of biosecurity very early on in the negotiations. The economies of both the Republic and the north are highly integrated in some respects, particularly dairy, and it is very important that those supply lines can be maintained without any risk to biosecurity. Of course, it is not just the looming possibility of foot and mouth but also other horrible diseases that animals get, such as swine flu and Asian flu. You name it, it is possible. I hope that we can address that one soon.

[Lord Eames (CB)]

My Lords, it is an opportunity, because of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, to once again concentrate our minds on an aspect of our long debates on the EU and Brexit, and to realise the significance of a cameo within the bigger cameo. It is a question not just of addressing the issue of the United Kingdom and the EU; within the United Kingdom is a border that will become the frontier between the United Kingdom and the EU.

The border, which is a part of folklore as well as part of the political story of Ireland, is much more important, as I said at Second Reading, than a line on a map. It represents something in people’s minds, aspirations and memories of the past. I believe that the value of what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has said to us this evening is this: the border represents perhaps the most important facet for the people of Northern Ireland that is represented by Brexit. Northern Ireland will be affected by Brexit more than any other part of the United Kingdom simply because of geography. However, more than geography, it will be affected by cultural and economic changes and, of course, the security question.

It is important to emphasise what lies behind the words of the amendment; I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, will not press it to a Division. It is a reminder that this part of the United Kingdom will be the first to feel the effect of Brexit. The second part will be the ongoing consequences. As the noble Baroness has reminded us, there is the tariff question, the economy and the proverbial oil tankers, and horses and cows in the field.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

The whole House always listens to the noble and right reverend Lord with the greatest respect on these matters. I have known him for about 20 years and have spoken to him on the subject over that time and feel the same degree of respect. I wonder whether he would like to tell the House—I do not know what answer he will give—whether he feels that one possible solution to the difficult, dire problems he has just outlined might be to allow for the negotiation of a special status for Northern Ireland which might leave it, at least in some respects, within the European Union.

[Lord Eames]

My Lords, I feel that the question that the noble Lord has raised takes us far beyond the points I was trying to put over because we must not tie the hands of the team that is going to speak for us all in the negotiations. I say to the noble Lord, please keep an open mind on the possibilities, but it is not for us to concern ourselves with.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, it is a real delight to follow the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames. When he was Archbishop of Armagh he invited me endless times to visit Northern Ireland, even during the terrible Troubles. As a result we ended up spending a lot of holidays in that particular part of Ireland. It is a very beautiful, wonderful place. The noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Reid, spoke with insight. I would like to follow in their footsteps on this wonderful probing amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, says he is not going to put to a vote.

I want to say three things. First, this amendment, as I understand it, touches on sensitivities that Brexit risks putting Northern Ireland’s peace process in jeopardy by not taking account of the fact that under the Belfast/Good Friday agreement citizens in Northern Ireland have a right to Irish citizenship and therefore EU citizenship. This makes Northern Ireland unique post Brexit as the only jurisdiction outside the EU where every person living there is legally entitled to be a citizen of the European Union, simply by applying for an Irish passport. While these considerations are high on the agenda in Dublin and Belfast, they are not receiving, as I understand it, the attention they deserve in London, Brussels or other EU capitals. The amendment seeks to reverse that situation, hence its probing nature.

Secondly, this issue and other matters relating to the impact of Brexit on UK-Irish relations were explored in a report published in December 2016 by the House of Lords European Union Committee. The committee concluded that the unique nature of UK-Irish relations needs a unique solution. It recommended that the best way to achieve this would be for the EU institutions and member states to invite the UK and Irish Governments to negotiate a draft bilateral agreement, involving and incorporating the views and interests of the Northern Ireland Executive, while keeping the EU itself fully informed. Such an agreement would then need to be agreed by the EU partners as a strand of the withdrawal agreement. I will be interested to know what the Minister will say about that.

Thirdly, this amendment does not go as far as the committee suggested but it holds that the right of the people of Northern Ireland to Irish and therefore EU citizenship should be upheld in any agreement negotiated following the triggering of Article 50. To me, that is important. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, reminded us of the importance of the border. There is no wall there but it is a border. It seems to me that the rights of those people need to be upheld otherwise we are going to put in jeopardy this wonderful decision under the Belfast/Good Friday agreement that citizens in Northern Ireland have a right to Irish citizenship and therefore EU citizenship.