Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Morrow

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, this is a historic moment. I am struck. Let me begin in an unusual way, with a quote from Sara Canning, the partner of Lyra McKee. She made a statement to Theresa May, saying that:

“I wanted her to know that Lyra and I had a right to be treated as equal citizens in our own country. Surely that’s not too much to ask?”


I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hayward for tabling Amendment 11, and doing so in a manner which addresses the technical deficiencies in the initial amendment from the other place.

I have heard comments on a number of issues tonight. I do not make a habit of quoting scripture, but I will tonight; I think it is important to do so. I quote 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, verse 7:

“Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance”.


The majority by which the other place made its decision was quite significant—a majority that my party can now only dream of. It is a reminder that, had the Executive re-formed in the past, this matter would have been taken forward in Northern Ireland. That is the important part to stress, but we cannot overlook what has arrived from the other place.

I will touch on a number of the issues raised, because it is important to do them justice, but I will do this slightly the wrong way around. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, raised the issue of religious protection and religious freedom. He is right to do so, because there needs to be an understanding among all faith-based groups in Northern Ireland that they will not be compelled to act against their faith, their religion or even their opinion.

However, I come back to how we seek to move this forward. The question centred around the words “may” and “must”. I need to drill down into that to make sure this is fully understood. The words “may” and “must” are not about the protections or the fundamental realisation of them. Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights guarantees the right to freedom of religion and freedom of conscience. That is not in doubt, not debated and not disputed, and will not be in any way eroded by anything we do here today—full stop. It is important to remember that all the legislation will comply with that and ensure we move that forward. Absolutely at the heart of this must be a belief in Northern Ireland that faith-based groups will not experience some sort of prejudice because they express their faith in fashions which do not recognise the situation today.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said only the other day, she would not wish to get married somewhere where she did not experience that love. Marriage is not a confrontation with other religions or an attempt to undermine them. Marriage is not an attempt to do any of those things at heart. It is, at heart, about love; that is the important thing we need to stress.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hayward for moving forward in this fashion. I commend his speech to the House; he has done most of the heavy lifting that I would have had to do. He has done justice to the task of addressing a number of technical deficiencies. It will be important to recognise how these will play out in Northern Ireland. This is an issue where we need to be as careful as we can be.

I need to stress that I do not have any concerns with Amendment 11 as now drafted. The dates in there will be a challenge—I put that front and centre—but we will meet those deadlines, by hook or by crook. I apologise to the officials who we will look to for this, but I am making that commitment. The reason the timelines are as they are is to recognise that this is not straightforward. When we looked at some of the aspects of same-sex marriage and civil partnership elsewhere in these islands, we recognised that they carried challenges to other pieces of legislation, which needed to be addressed. That is why we need a timeframe of nine months post Royal Assent. The amendment necessitates that we move faster than that. However, this is the truth of it, as we recognise some of the stumbles and challenges which have been experienced elsewhere in this kingdom and learn from them. It is important to draw on the experiences in Scotland, England and Wales, which should help us. Addressing the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, I say that it is important to stress that we are looking at an opt-in process. One would not be compelled to act against one’s faith or strongly held beliefs.

I am aware that this provision will not be welcomed in every quarter of Northern Ireland, just as it was not welcomed in every quarter of Scotland, England or Wales, but, as other noble Lords have said, time has moved on. It is time to move this one on. A message is being sent to Northern Ireland. I wish this had been done in Stormont; it would have been stronger had it been done there. I would much rather not be standing here doing it, but it needs to be done. We are acting on a very clear instruction from the other place, having recognised that the instruction required certain adjustments, for which we are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hayward. On this basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, will recognise that we are not seeking to undermine in any way the religious freedom or the conscience of anyone in Northern Ireland who holds a faith dear. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, will not press his amendments, and that we can move forward with Amendment 11 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hayward.

[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, I have listened very carefully to what has been said around the House this evening. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It was remiss of me at the beginning not to thank the staff of the Bill office for their assistance. They have been very busy of late—I suspect they are busy all the time, and this is just a normal day for them—but they were very gracious and helpful.

Some noble Lords, including the Minister, have quoted other people. I had intended to say more, but I am not going to. I am not going to say his name, because he does not come from the same side of the political spectrum as me, but I want to quote one of our well-known politicians, known to everybody in this House:

“In Northern Ireland, we have a tendency to look at who is saying something rather than what is being said”.


I trust and pray that, tonight, your Lordships’ House will not be guilty of the same. It is my intention to test the opinion of the House on this matter.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Morrow

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, this has been a thought-provoking discussion. I am often guided by my own beliefs and I recognise Ecclesiastes chapter 4, verses 9 to 10:

“Two are better than one … for if they fall, one will lift up the other”.


I am heartened by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, because I do not doubt that he will be working closely with Conor McGinn from the other place to ensure that what comes to this House carries with it the exact protections and care that we have seen in England and Wales and in Scotland. There are elements which need to be recognised in terms of the wider question of freedom of religion and freedom of expression, and I hope to see those protections coming through in an emerging amendment. As I said, the amendment from the other place has certain deficiencies and we hope to see those improved through the work which I do not doubt the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, among others, will help move forward.

It is important, again, that we balance rights, obligations and protections throughout, not least in schools, and we must make sure that we are teaching the reality of what is going on. We need to make sure that pupils understand the wider question of relationships before they ever engage in sex education. I draw a distinction between relationships and sexual elements; I think they need to be seen in that context. It is important to remember that these issues have been addressed previously in different parts of the United Kingdom. These are not new issues. The concerns of particular bodies are not new and on each occasion I believe that the different authorities, whether in Scotland or in England and Wales, have learned from the challenges and have ensured that the protections which they have put together are adequate to address the concerns raised by noble Lords.

I appreciate the concerns which noble Lords have expressed. They are right to recognise that there is throughout Northern Ireland and elsewhere a particular constituency which sees the faith-based approach to marriage as an integral part of it. I do not doubt the validity of that or the importance of recognising why that must be accepted and trusted, but at the same time the wider context needs to be considered. I hope the amendment we see coming forward addresses these issues. On that basis, we hope that this amendment can be withdrawn. My final point is: congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker.

[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to what has been said in response to this debate and sometimes I end up more confused, but that is maybe more to do with me than anyone else. I take some comfort from the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has grasped exactly what we are trying to do here, and I will be watching the progress of this with deep interest. Maybe on this occasion I can look more to the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for some protection because he has not tried to throw in other issues that are not there.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I appreciate that the definition of a victim has bedevilled a number of people over a great number of years. I read with great interest the Eames-Bradley report, of which the noble and right reverend Lord is one author, Applying appropriate caveats to our earlier discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, regarding the victims’ pension, there are distinctions. None the less, if indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, these could perhaps be the seeds of a particular solution, we may be closer to a definition than has been the case for some time.

The Government have already accepted a reporting requirement to publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on whether the definition of “victim” in Article 3 of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 should be revised to apply only to a person who is injured or affected wholly through the actions of another person. In addition, my honourable friend the Minister of State John Penrose committed in the Commons that Her Majesty’s Government recognise that the definition of a victim is something that a number of honourable and right honourable Members have campaigned on for a number of years, and commit to looking UK-wide at how we can make sure that victims are duly protected. That is a step in the right direction. We are closer than we have been before. Of course, there is still some way to go. I recognise that historically there have been challenges, which I noted earlier, and I am aware that the parties in Northern Ireland themselves have not always reached consensus on this particular approach. If we are indeed closer, I hope that we can make some progress and on that basis I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, when I introduced my amendment, I said that I would keep before me what was said during the earlier debate on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Having listened to what has been said, I will not press the amendment tonight. Rather, we will watch progress on this matter. But the Government should take note that this matter has to be dealt with. It will not go away. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Northern Ireland: Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Morrow

Thursday 13th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I would not wish to see these two elements entwined, because they are quite distinct. However, the issue to which my noble friend refers is very important. I have given an assurance before and repeat today that we must make progress on victims’ pensions. He has my word that we will take that forward as quickly as we possibly can.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I certainly agree with the Minister when he says that these are two separate, different issues, which are both extremely important. From his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, do I take it that the settled position of the Government is that, since all the obstacles are out of the way and all the political parties are on board, they will now take the necessary action, bearing in mind that some of the institutions have a big role to play here and must not be allowed to get away scot free? I urge the Government to give a clear, unambiguous, unequivocal reply that they will take this issue forward and that this is their settled position, irrespective of what is happening in Northern Ireland and since all the political parties in Northern Ireland agree that it should be taken forward.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I can give the noble Lord that assurance. We will do just that.

Northern Ireland: Devolved Government

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Morrow

Thursday 24th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

As the House has heard already, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, made it very clear that we will not extend this particular process at all. That is not the intention of the Government. However, we need to recognise that, irrespective of Brexit, this is about good governance in Northern Ireland, and there is no good governance in Northern Ireland today. We cannot solely rely on a Civil Service to deliver what elective representatives should do. We recognise that for what it is. We are now in the twilight of that particular opportunity: it will darken, and we will move on.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, I can confirm that my party, the DUP, is ready to go into government and back into Stormont tomorrow without any preconditions. But the truth of the matter is that services are not being delivered on health and education. Therefore, does the Minister agree that, until devolution to Stormont is restored, it is time to consider installing direct rule Ministers? That is the best way to gain the momentum and impetus in restoring devolution to Northern Ireland.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is correct: nothing is off the table. Unfortunately, we cannot take direct rule off the table, much as I would like to do so. It has to be there because, if we cannot secure an Executive, it will be one of the inevitable outcomes of this terrible process.

Northern Ireland: Misoprostol

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Morrow

Wednesday 5th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I am fully aware of the opinions that are being expressed in Northern Ireland, not just on abortion but on a range of issues. If only we could see such a unity of purpose and opinion across all the parties in Northern Ireland now, it would bring about a restored Executive and we could see significant progress on this matter made by the right group of individuals—namely, those democratically elected by the people of the Province. That is the ultimate sensible and sure way of bringing about policies that have the endorsement of the wider population.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, as the Minister confirmed, this is a devolved matter—a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly. Does he agree that, as recently as February 2016, the democratically elected Assembly decided not to change the abortion law in Northern Ireland? Does he also agree that, in this context, it would be wholly wrong for Her Majesty’s Government or this House or the other House to change Northern Ireland’s present legislation?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord brings to our attention a reality check, which is that in 2016 in the Assembly in Belfast there was not the unanimity of position that the noble Baroness on the opposite Benches alluded to in Belfast itself. That is a reminder of how sensitive the matter is, not least because it is a wider matter of conscience but also, again, as a fully devolved matter it should be taken forward by those elected to the Assembly in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Morrow

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I ask him to reflect on the Judge Hart inquiry. If I picked up him correctly, he indicated that this would await the return of an Executive. I point out to him that every solitary MLA I am aware of supports the implementation of that inquiry. Other parties represented here can say no if they disagree. Every party supports it. Some of the material in the report is very harrowing. One lady started off in the system at four years old. She is now 87. How much more do we have to put these people through? I therefore ask the Minister to discuss with his colleagues and reflect on that.

Secondly, on the RHI scheme, although I appreciate that this is a renewal, it was originally based on no substantive information. I suggest that the Minister again consult his colleagues and ensure that a proper working party is established to alleviate this, because people are losing their livelihoods as a result of this botched scheme.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore]

Just before the Minister gets to his feet, I should like to say that I broadly agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said. There is no doubt that all the political parties in Northern Ireland want this issue resolved. The issue I raised earlier was that the institutions that carried out the abuse should be made to pay for some of that abuse and repent for all of it. I do not think there is an issue in resolving this, but it would be totally wrong if only taxpayers’ money was used to resolve it.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank both noble Lords for their interventions, and I will reflect on them.

As to the RHI scheme, there will be an opportunity to feed in about past failings. The key thing now is to ensure that its future workability is also examined in some detail. These are matters on which I hope we can move forward on that basis. Therefore, I beg to move.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Morrow

Thursday 2nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

That is a good question and an important one. Right now, the voice of Northern Ireland is being drawn from a number of sources. We would prefer to have an Executive who could be the principal for that, but at the moment stakeholders inside Northern Ireland are articulating a number of views, and that is absolutely critical. Through the joint ministerial committees we are seeing again the civil servants drawing those voices in to make sure they are absolutely at the heart of the discussion. I would like to emphasise again to the people of Northern Ireland that they are not being overlooked and they are not being silenced. Their Civil Service is performing a valuable function in ensuring that not just one single view but a diversity of views are being heard. The noble and learned Baroness is absolutely right to emphasise the importance of the border question, because that is where a number of the biggest challenges of Brexit will be experienced. We cannot afford to turn a deaf ear to any of those communities and stakeholders in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement which, regrettable though it is, is essential. Today, Northern Ireland finds itself without an Executive and an Assembly. This is due entirely to the intransigence and the declaration of red lines laid down by Sinn Fein. Someone has already queried whether its representatives are really sincere, and I suspect that they are not. The message that they want to get out across the world is: “Northern Ireland is an unstable society and ungovernable”.

One thing that must not happen today is instability, because that brings many problems with it. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will not allow a drift situation to develop, that a budget will be struck, and that in the event of there not being an arrangement at Stormont, direct Ministers will be appointed to create stability and progress? The issues for the people of Northern Ireland are simple: good government, housing, policing services, health services and education. Those are the issues that the people of Northern Ireland wish to see addressed.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. The things that people are most concerned about are the elements of good government through a sound and stable economy, housing, education and the wider welfare question. It is the ambition of this Government to deliver a strong, stable and sustainable Executive who can address those self-same points. As a former Member of the European Parliament, I have always believed in the notion of subsidiarity: we should deliver those things as closely to the people they affect as we possibly can. I believe that we can do that in the Executive.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, made a strong point when talking about the people of Northern Ireland and the indomitable and unsurpassable efforts they have made to move forward. I believe that right now they are watching all of us to make sure that we are hearing their points. I hope that the self-same voices are being heard around the table. It is absolutely critical that the two principal groups at that table should find a way of securing common ground because it is on that common ground that firm foundations will be laid for the ongoing good governance of Northern Ireland. Only by having good governance can we actually hope to deliver the things which I know are dear to the noble Lord’s heart, which is the welfare of the common people. I believe that that must also be at the heart of our ambitions as a Government.