Water Companies: Failure

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My Lords, there is a high bar for the imposition of a special administration regime. A variety of options remain available to Thames Water in securing additional finance and it is vital that all of them are fully explored. The Government are prepared for a range of scenarios across our regulated sectors. If it becomes clear that any company will become insolvent or can no longer fulfil its statutory duties, we will not hesitate to use our powers to request the court to place it into special administration.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, the wording of the Question is “if they fail”. Does the Minister agree that on seeing on our television sets the excrement coming into our streams and rivers so frequently, most people in the country would say that the water companies had already failed?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I do not actually agree with the noble Lord fully. I accept that a number of the water companies are not performing to the right standard. The Government have been very clear that what is going on is unacceptable, but there is a huge legacy issue here. Simply renationalising water companies or stopping their chief executives from getting their pay, bonuses and all the other things—as is now in place—is not going to solve that problem straightaway. It is a long-term legacy issue which the Government have a fully funded plan to address.

Sewage Discharges

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be aware of the very strict new conditions set by Ofwat on water companies about how they reward their senior staff and shareholders, and of the absolute imperative, driven by the regulators and the Government, to reduce massively the effect of storm overflows. The letter that Ofwat wrote in October sets out quite clearly that:

“Company plans on storm overflows are lacking”;


there is “insufficient evidence” to support the positions that they have previously taken; and there is a “lack of ambition” and

“a lack of focus and maturity in partnership solutions.”

We are therefore giving them an extra two months, from March to May, to come up with better plans, and we will make sure that they are implemented on the original timescale as the next price review period starts.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall take a somewhat harder line than the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. When there are repeat offenders, we should not condone them but punish them. Surely the water company heads should be sent to jail, not have a gentle ticking off. Is it a lack of power on the part of Ofwat or a lack of willingness to do something about it? We cannot sit by as beautiful places like Lake Windermere are polluted beyond use.

Plastic Bag Charge

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is an intriguing comparison, but the position is that combining the publication of the summary and intended action will reduce the overall time taken, compared to publishing each separately. We have indeed had to take a little longer because officials have needed to undertake additional policy work in response to feedback from consultation. I assure my noble friend—and all noble Lords—that we are fully seized of the importance of plastic reduction.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not wish to be discourteous to the Minister, but his answer sounded like a direct quote from “Yes Minister”. Would he like to think about it again? This is intolerable. We have been waiting years to put a charge on plastic bags. We have it on some but not on others. Why can we not just get a move on? Why does it take so long?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is not quite the case, as with all such things. I am well aware of the sort of responses one is given, but as I said, perhaps the interpretation of “very soon” should be in a glossary of terms. I am very conscious that we need to take action on this. By the end of this year, many of the larger retailers will not be using single-use plastic bags at all. We are working with all retailers and market traders to address this fully, because we want to get this right.

Plastics: Reduction in Use

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what their latest proposals are to reduce the use of plastics.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, we are already working with industry to reduce our use of plastics. Key to this will be our reforms to the packaging waste regulations. We will shortly publish the response to our proposals on banning plastic straws, stirrers and cotton buds. Our response to the proposals on extending and increasing the plastic bag charge will follow thereafter. Where existing powers are insufficient to match our ambition, we will seek additional powers in the environment Bill.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister consider a sentence from the answer given to this House last month on the same topic? It referred to the Government’s,

“plans to eliminate all avoidable plastic waste by 2042”.—[Official Report, 10/4/19; col. 491.]

That begs a lot of questions, as it is a long way ahead. What about unavoidable plastic waste? Surely that can also be dealt with. We know about the statistics—the Minister will be fully aware of them—on the dangers to marine life and the thousands of years that it takes for plastic to degrade. Plastic has been found north and south on this planet, from the Arctic to the Antarctic. Surely we require more drastic action than that.

I have had an interesting e-mail from Waitrose about what it is trying to do. Will the Minister comment on two specific suggestions? First, can he develop a clear, visible kitemark on all packaging to indicate whether it contains plastic, and whether it meets decent standards? It would be a kitemark agreed throughout industry. Secondly, what about having an annual award to industry—I would like, without his permission, to call it the David Attenborough award—for the company, business or local authority that does best each year in getting rid of plastic?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there were quite a few questions there but I agree with the thrust of what the noble Lord said. That is why we are working internationally, as well as at home. I share your Lordships’ frustration; we need to take action, which is why the UK plastics pact is so important. One of its targets for 2025 will be:

“100% of plastics packaging to be reusable, recyclable or compostable”.

Others include to eliminate by 2025 unnecessary single-use packaging and to have,

“70% of plastics packaging effectively recycled or composted”.

I agree with the noble Lord and we want to take action. This Government are taking action through research, which will obviously be an enormously important point, to find alternatives to the far too extensive use of plastics.

Transport Emissions in Urban Areas

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely agree with my noble friend and will pick that up with TfL and the Department for Transport. As my noble friend rightly identified, congestion is a cause of pollution, as is the idling of vehicles. I am pleased that the City of Westminster has issued an edict about idling and turning engines off. This is very helpful.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, 2040 to 2050 is still a long way away. I appreciate that one has to develop infrastructure so that there are charging points for electric vehicles. However, could we not have made an immediate decision to encourage the use of hybrid cars at the expense of petrol and diesel ones? Hybrid cars have enormous advantages and this could be done very quickly, without any charging points. Why not?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there are many plus points in hybrid cars and I entirely agree that, at this time, they are a very good option. However, with our investment in ultra-low emission vehicles and in more publicly accessible charging points, we are clearly moving towards ensuring that ever more ultra-low emission vehicles are bought.

Plastic Packaging

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they plan to take to reduce the amount of plastic used in packaging for food, drink and other consumer items.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been working with WRAP, the Ellen MacArthur Foundation and industry to develop the UK plastics pact, announced last week. The pact seeks to eliminate single-use plastic packaging by 2025 and ensure that 100% of plastic packaging is reusable, recyclable or compostable. In addition, government and industry are investing in research on plastics innovation and the development of more-sustainable products.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the Minister will agree that it is no exaggeration to say that we are poisoning our planet. Will he confirm that 70% of the rubbish on Britain’s beaches is plastic? Will he also confirm that, by 2050, the weight of plastic in the oceans will exceed the weight of fish, and that micro-plastics have been found on the tops of mountains and in the polar regions? I appreciate what the Government are trying to do, but are we not facing a desperately urgent crisis which requires more urgent action nationally and internationally?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I entirely endorse all the instincts that the noble Lord has expressed in terms of our need to take action both at home and overseas. Just at CHOGM, there was a strong desire within the Commonwealth countries to deal with marine pollution. Through the UN, the G7, the G20 and CHOGM, we have been working extremely hard, because this issue must be dealt with internationally. At home, we fully recognise that we need to advance the necessary changes. That is why our resources and waste strategy to be announced later in the year will represent an important way forward.

Air Quality

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what short-term action they propose to take to improve air quality in Britain.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, we have committed £3.5 billion for air quality and cleaner transport. We are helping local authorities to tackle pollution hotspots and have allocated £255 million to accelerate local action to meet concentration limits. Ninety-two per cent of monitored roads will meet limits next year. We are investing in vehicle retrofitting, ultra-low emission vehicles, cycling and walking, and implementing tougher real driving emissions tests. Next year, our clean air strategy will outline how we will tackle air pollution more widely.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. However, will he confirm that, according to the United Nations, air quality in 44 of our towns and cities is such that it is too dangerous to breathe? According to the Royal College of Physicians, last year, the health impact of poor air quality was £20 billion. It is estimated that 50,000 people die each year from poor air quality, of whom 9,000 are in London. Surely we have to do more than the Minister has said the Government will do?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Government take this seriously because we are well aware of the health issues. This issue affects many countries; as the noble Lord will know, 17 other EU member states have the same problem with nitrogen dioxide. We are working very closely with local authorities, particularly those in which we need to make more rapid progress, to escalate the issue, because we are well aware of the health consequences. It is a very serious issue.

Local Authorities: Recycling

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend that we need to encourage clarity. Indeed, that is what WRAP’s consistency framework is intended to achieve. It is of course for local authorities, in consultation with residents, to determine the most appropriate arrangements, but the recycling guidelines already make clear what is recyclable and what is not. The Recycle Now campaign uses social and digital media. Work is ongoing to address the issue of black plastic.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, what about plastic bottles?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there has been considerable success in the rate of recycling of plastic bottles. But what I think the noble Lord might be alluding to is that as part of the litter strategy, for which I have established a working group, we are going to look at a number of measures to improve recycling. One of them is to have a full and proper look at the impacts and benefits of different types of deposit and reward-and-return schemes for drinks. We want to set up that group very shortly and I am looking forward to its report early in the new year.

Recycling: Plastic Bottles

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that there was a slight drop, and that is why we absolutely need to do more. That is why I think the work of WRAP will be very important. But let me give some examples of where recycling is working tremendously well: South Oxfordshire District Council has achieved 66.6% household waste recycling; East Riding has achieved 66.1%; and Rochford District Council has achieved 66%. We want to raise the bar where local authorities are doing very well. That is what we want across the country.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope the Minister will not think I am being discourteous, but his first Answer could have come straight out of “Yes Minister”. His subsequent answers were similar to those the Government gave when we talked about putting a tax or some penalty on the excessive use of plastic bags. We are getting nowhere in this. Surely we must do something—it is an environmental scandal. Could we not have some action instead of these platitudes from civil servants?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have never taken the noble Lord to be anything other than courteous, and I do not take what he said in any untoward sense. On what he said about the plastic bag charge, there are 6 billion fewer plastic bags in circulation and the 5p charge has raised £29 million for good causes. These are good examples. I am sure that when the litter strategy is launched, as I hope it will be soon, the noble Lord will agree that we are trying to be—and will be—ambitious.

Lake District National Park Authority

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, it is the turn of this side; I live there. Is it not shocking that parts of the national park—one of the most beautiful national parks—have to be sold off as a result of government cuts? Is there not a problem that, in a further sale of the land, the Lake District planning people might well give a more relaxed permission in order to get half the money? Is it not rather unhappy that we are doing this at all? Surely we should adamantly say that the Lake District is not for sale to the highest bidder.

[Lord De Mauley]

I agree with much of the sentiment behind the noble Lord’s point, but the national park has assured me that this is not about cuts. It routinely reviews its assets and makes disposals where appropriate so that the proceeds can be reinvested into the acquisition, improvement or maintenance of other properties. It is worth saying that between 2007 and 2010—three years during which the noble Lord’s party was in government—it made sales totalling £1.9 million. In the five years from then, sales have totalled £1.8 million.