Postal Packets (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Wednesday 19th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, is correct to emphasise what the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee observed about timing and the lack of consultation and impact assessment; of course, that is important, and I am sure that the Minister will want to respond to it fully. The reason it is so important is not just because it is our job to ask those questions, which we ask frequently; it is because, particularly in the matters before us today—as we heard, issues of Northern Ireland’s place within the union have been raised, as a consequence of the sense that this is being rushed or is not being done adequately—it is beholden on the Government to make an extra effort to make sure that this is done in a way that is beyond reproach, as far as Ministers are able.

These regulations implement part of the Windsor Framework, which we support. The Minister knows this, and we have been clear about it. We think it is a far better solution than that which was arrived at previously with the Northern Ireland protocol. It is also better than the approach that the Government sought to take with the protocol Bill, which we spent many weeks discussing earlier this year. Brexit brought us to this place. A solution needed to be found, and there was always going to be this kind of unsatisfactory compromise on Northern Ireland. This was raised before the vote took place. As we all know and have repeatedly said, Northern Ireland voted to remain and a solution needed to be found. I am afraid that this is probably the least worst option that we can land on at the moment.

Consumer-to-consumer parcels and business-to-consumer parcels will not be subject to regulations, and business-to-business goods intended to remain in the UK will use the green lane, while other goods will be subject to declarations and checks. We know that life will not be that simple and that there will be complications—in the real world, things will not always work as anticipated—and there will have to be some recognition of that as we go forward. The questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, will have to be answered—if not today, then in the execution of this. That is life, and that is how we will have to approach this. But, having come to the point of securing an agreement, which was approved by the other place by 515 votes to 29, it is incumbent on the Government to make good on what they agreed.

My noble friend Lady Ritchie spoke of the opportunities for Northern Ireland from its unique position, and she asked important questions about the advice and support for businesses that will have to navigate these new arrangements. Is HMRC adequately prepared and resourced to make this work, and can the Minister explain how the green lane will be policed? The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, described the EU as a foreign power, which it is, but it has our consent and agreement. This is the arrangement that we have come to with our negotiating partners. There were other options: the Northern Ireland protocol was the one that was settled on by Boris Johnson and the noble Lord, Lord Frost. We all agreed that it was unsatisfactory —no one seemed particularly happy with that outcome—and here we have moved on to something that is an improvement.

I completely accept what our friends the noble Lords, Lord McCrea and Lord Dodds, had to say. I understand the challenge, but I find myself searching for an alternative viable solution. I know that one could have been that we all stayed in the customs union or the single market, but that is not the position of any of the main political parties and I believe it is not the position of the DUP. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, may correct me if I am wrong about that—here he comes now.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. On alternatives, I refer her to the report by our Select Committee on the protocol, on which I have the honour to serve along with the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. In July last year, it said—I do not have the precise reference, but I can supply it—that, in relation to parcels, the solution was to continue as with the grace period, and that there should be no fettering of parcel deliveries between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The cross-party Select Committee did suggest a very good solution—one that, unfortunately, the Government decided not to run with.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I read that report and I commend the noble Lord for bringing it to our attention, but we cannot arrive at a solution unilaterally, as the United Kingdom. Whatever solution we arrive at must be agreed with our negotiating partners. I was not part of that negotiation but, from what Ministers have indicated, it would seem they were not able, at this point, to settle on that with the European Union. We can regret that, but it is the reality of where we are. We are surely in the business of dealing with reality as we find it, not as we would wish it to be.

It really ought to be a priority for the Government to rebuild trust. I would urge far more candour and a franker approach when we discuss these issues, and not to do anything which would give the impression that we are somehow trying to steamroller these things through. Can the Minister explain exactly what a business would have to do to become part of the trusted trader scheme, so we are clear about exactly what we are asking businesses to do? We completely understand the dissatisfaction that some have with the framework but there is, at the moment, no other viable alternative solution.

I am not going to comment on the mismanagement of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the debate that took place in the other place. I read Hansard and found the way it was conducted extraordinary, but that is not for me to manage. This is clearly not business as usual; it is different and unique. There have always been differences, which were previously brought to the fore regarding animals and other things, but it is obvious that some contributors this afternoon feel there is somehow a threat to their constitutional position, and we cannot be relaxed about that. We have to recognise that and take it seriously. I disagree; I am British and if I moved to Belfast I would still be equally as British. I might have to fill in some forms if I wanted to receive goods from a business in GB to my business. I could live with that without a threat to my Britishness, but is it not for me to tell other noble Lords how they should feel about it, and they are quite right to bring those points to the attention of the Committee.

I could not agree more strongly with those who said that what we need is a frank and open discussion, and perhaps a change of tone and being a little more relaxed as a Government about all this. I know we have had some torrid debates on these issues in recent years and that the protocol was a disaster. Things have happened and things were said; promises were made, but they should not have been because they were broken knowingly and very quickly. We have damaged our international reputation as a good partner to negotiate with and I regret that very much but, with a change of attitude from the Government, and a more respectful approach to colleagues in Northern Ireland and to this House, we could move forward in a much more positive way.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Well, there are a lot of “ifs” there. If I understand the noble Lord, he is asking, “If there’s an agreement, what should the Government do in terms of getting an endorsement of it?” I presume they would come to both Houses of Parliament and consult with the parties in Northern Ireland. As we learned from the original Brexit negotiations, the Government would be very wise to consult with the parties in Northern Ireland before any final arrangements are entered into.

I have a lot of sympathy with the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that there is a lot of secrecy around the negotiations. Nobody is quite sure what is going on—technical talks, negotiations or whatever. However, I remember living through one particular week when the UK Government went off to Brussels and then came back again because they had not consulted properly. I would not like to see that happen again, because the whole objective here is to ensure that we can get arrangements which allow the devolved Government to get up and running again, with the support of nationalists and of unionists. So, before we came to any formal vote, I suspect that there would need to be quite considerable discussions and consultations with the parties in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I would expect that, too, and I think it is regrettable that we have got to where we are. I was one of those people in the other place who very regularly got up and asked Ministers about Northern Ireland and what the plan was, because there were obviously going to be these issues. There were other solutions; we could have had a customs union or some kind of single market arrangement that would have maybe dealt with this in a slightly different way. I remember talking to one of the noble Lord’s colleagues who said, “Well, we don’t mind what it is as long as we’re all treated the same within the United Kingdom”. Ministers cannot be surprised that we are still having these discussions now.

I want to talk a little bit about this issue of cross-community consent; I am just reflecting on the speech made by my noble friend Lady Ritchie on Monday. It seems clear that the intention of Ministers is to protect the Article 2 rights of individuals, the Article 3 common travel area and the north-south co-operation in Article 11. We have debated the protection of the rights of individuals before, but what we really need is some sort of assurance from the Government that those intentions are reflected throughout the Bill in a consistent and watertight way. So can the Minister confirm that there is no prohibition on the overriding of Article 18 of the protocol, which deals with cross-community consent? We have rightly heard a great deal about this issue, and I would like the Minister to address it to make sure that I have understood it correctly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 35A in my name on VAT and excise. I do not wish to prolong the debate at this hour. Very briefly, noble Lords will remember back in March when the then Chancellor Rishi Sunak announced measures in the fiscal event—mini-budget, estimate, whatever it was—that there was a zero VAT cut for households installing energy-efficiency measures, which would apply throughout Great Britain, but not to installation in homes in Northern Ireland of materials such as solar panels, insulation or heat pumps.

Consumers in Northern Ireland could not benefit from that VAT cut because of the protocol. Something that was warmly welcomed across the rest of the United Kingdom provoked concern and outrage across the communities in Northern Ireland. Mr Sunak announced that there would be extra money provided by way of Barnett consequentials to make up for it, but, as people with experience of the operation of the Executive know, sometimes the direct tax cut is the most effective and efficient way of getting these things done.

I have tabled this amendment to explore and seek the Government’s reasoning on their approach to the VAT issue. They have not gone down the route that they have in relation to state aid in Clause 12 of excluding Article 10 and annexes 5 and 6 of the protocol. They have not decided to exclude the relevant article of the protocol which applies the VAT rules. Instead, they have adopted the approach of saying there are large areas where we simply disapply that article and we can make provision by regulations in relation to the VAT excise duties and other taxes.

It is more akin to the situation that we find ourselves in with the protocol itself in relation to customs: Northern Ireland is nominally within the UK customs regime, but all the rules of the EU apply. What is the impact of the Government taking this approach in relation to VAT? Why are they not taking the same kind of approach to VAT as they have to state aid? What are the implications? It says clearly in the subsections what steps can be taken in relation to differences in VAT and making sure that the situation that we saw in March may not arise in the future, but what are the implications of not taking out the relevant article in the protocol completely?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I was wondering pretty much the same thing. This is a slightly odd clause, because it says a lot but actually leaves the door open to not doing anything at all. It gives Ministers the right to change

“any other tax (including imposing or varying the incidence of any tax), which they consider appropriate”.

That is fine, but they might not consider anything appropriate and might not do anything.

Subsection (2) says:

“The regulations may, in particular, make any provision”


to bring closer together, or reduce differences between, various taxes in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. I am sure that that is how the Government want to signal their intention, but the Bill does not do that—it leaves it open to Ministers to do nothing at all, or even to create greater variance in the situation. So I was curious about why the Bill says that, rather than saying, “We will make the situation in Northern Ireland the same as it is in the rest of the UK, notwithstanding the various revenue-raising powers that there are in devolved Administrations.”

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I understand that my noble friend—if I can call him that—has been lied to repeatedly, but he was lied to by the Government. I gently suggest that his beef ought to be with the noble Lords opposite me, rather than my party. As he says, our position on Article 16—as you would expect, and as I attempted to explain earlier—has evolved in the context of what we are being presented with by the Government. This approach was not previously conceived of; now that it is, it puts Article 16 in a slightly different light. This is not especially complicated, but it is the view of the Labour Party.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, and I understand what she is saying, but the issues that were being discussed at the time by Her Majesty’s Government, as it then was, and which the Labour Party was responding to, are the same issues that are before us today, which are affecting the political process in Northern Ireland and leading to problems with the supply of goods from Great Britain. They are exactly the same but when the solution, “Let’s trigger Article 16; let’s go into negotiations”, was suggested, the Labour Party derided that as being toxic. The Labour Party gave support and succour to those who have allowed this position of instability and economic and constitutional harm to continue. A lot of lies have been told around the place, but it is no good, if I may say so, the noble Baroness putting all the blame on to the Government when everybody in Parliament and all political parties have to accept that the goalposts have been shifted, often by consensus, in a way that has done damage to the Belfast agreement, as amended by St Andrews, in a way that has undermined the trust of the people in Northern Ireland in the institutions.