Autumn Budget 2024

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to be able to welcome, with that wonderful maiden speech, my new noble friend Lord Booth-Smith. It is also a pleasure, if I may say so, to follow the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady. I understand that it may have been her birthday over the weekend. I have a birthday in a couple of days too, so at least we Scorpios have this to share even if we share nothing else in the Chamber today. I thought some of our Budgets over the years were pretty rubbish.

I went to bed last night counting the various definitions the Government offered about what a worker is. I had reached 23 before I fell fast asleep, so I guess I missed a dozen or more. Labour is, of course, the party of the workers, for the workers—up the workers. The trouble is, there are going to be fewer workers as a result of this Budget. You cannot raise £40 billion without hammering ordinary people. The increase in national insurance will be passed on to employees, not matter what the Chancellor has offered. In ordinary English that means lower pay, slower hiring, fewer jobs and fewer workers. It is sad, it is unintended—I am sure—but it is inevitable.

This is a Government of change. They have said that, and perhaps they will change this. After all, they changed their chief of staff pretty quickly. Did your Lordships notice, by the way, that they changed their policy on freeports? Two days before the Budget, the Prime Minister announced that they would create five new freeports. I thought that was rather a good idea, but then that policy changed too—no new freeports at all. A No. 10 official explained what had happened. They had misread the email from next door. It was, in his words, “a total cock-up”. No change there, then. There will be no flood of exports as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, wanted—not from those non-existent free ports.

Instead, noble Lords may have noticed that Labour has been concentrating on exporting dozens and dozens of advisers across the Atlantic to help its relentless battle against Donald Trump—a masterstroke. Then there is the Foreign Secretary’s view that President Trump, the next leader of our biggest export market and trading partner, is a “neo-Nazi … sociopath”. It is a fascinating negotiating tactic.

This Budget is an attack on workers. You cannot live, work, farm, go to the shops or even die without getting clobbered, unless of course you happen to be a train driver. It is not just the farmers, factory owners, service industry and supermarkets. Our charities, GPs, care homes, schools and even hospices are all being beaten under Labour’s national insurance hammer. Some workers are luckier than others. Some can find a helpful handout: the odd football ticket, an occasional concert ticket, even a friendly local clothes bank. That was something else that was changed, of course, once it all became public—another policy that, how can I put it, seems to have been tailored swiftly to the moment.

In its entire history the Labour Party has never been further from real workers than it is right now, and it must be our ambition on this side of the House to fill that gap between now and the next election. To govern is to choose, and the Chancellor has chosen badly. It is a Budget that will hit workers. This is another Labour Government who will leave office with unemployment higher than when they came in. The other day the Chancellor said that this is a Budget she does not want to repeat. I commend the Chancellor’s conclusion.

Credit Card Invoices

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue again. As I mentioned last time, there is now a consumer duty, which is a very important underpinning for financial services providers, which have a duty of care for their customers. That came into effect on 31 July 2023, and the Government and the FCA will monitor the effectiveness of the consumer duty as it beds in.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that the Government have a lot more to do, in the spirt of full disclosure, in explaining the cost of Covid and the lockdown? The latest estimate is that it has already cost over £400 billion. With all the excess deaths and, in particular, mental health issues we are now experiencing, that cost will grow. Would it not be sensible to explain far more fully to everybody in this country the costs to them? That means that there would be no more magic money tree and that the Treasury’s pre-Budget leaks would be much more realistic. Furthermore, we would be much better placed to decide, if there were to be another epidemic, what we should be doing.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right. He may have heard some of the explanation I gave in the debate on the Spring Budget on why we had to take the decisions that we did. Noble Lords will all recall that the Government stepped in to provide furlough for nearly 11 million people to save their jobs and protected nearly 500,000 businesses. It was essential that we did that at the time, but it came at a cost to our economy and society, which must be repaid at some stage.

Autumn Statement 2023

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, as a member of the ranks of the struggling self-employed, I applaud the Autumn Statement, and particularly the idea that we should cut taxes to get growth. It has been mentioned by many Members today; it is a great new idea and it might even catch on. In fact, our growth record is not as bad as we sometimes pretend. In recent years, it has been better than those of many others—I think my noble friend said that it had surpassed all expectations. I welcome her to her new role on the Front Bench, but, if she will forgive me for saying so, in truth, and for a very long time, under successive Governments it has not been anywhere near good enough.

I have been struck by how many noble Lords seem to rely so heavily on experts—too heavily, in my view. Over the years, that has allowed too many Governments to shrug off their basic responsibilities. It is 25 years since Gordon Brown handed over a great chunk of the Treasury’s responsibilities to the Bank of England. Today, we worship at the altar of the OBR.

It has been fascinating that almost every speaker today has leaned on the OBR, including my noble friend, even as on several occasions she mentioned how many of its forecasts have been wildly off target. We have put ourselves in thrall to the so-called experts. I always rely on Winston Churchill, who always has a great word. He once warned about having experts on tap, but never on top. Yet often—too often—we simply claim that we are following the science, so it is not our fault really, even though that excuse is being ripped to shreds daily at the Covid inquiry.

Our own Economic Affairs Committee got it right earlier this week in its excellent report, when it said that the Bank of England’s “expanding remit” should be cut, its responsibilities decreased and its growing “democratic deficit” remedied. That is a healthy and very timely vote of scepticism, but all recent Governments have spread our wealth around—here, there, far and wide—even before that wealth has been created. How many times have we heard that phrase from Ministers, “Whatever it takes”, meaning, of course, that we will spend whatever it takes? We will tax and borrow, and all the rest, and triple lock it. Whatever it takes: shake the money tree yet again and hope that there are not too many pigeons roosting above our heads.

That has allowed us to put off difficult decisions. One little irritant of mine is around dealing with the desperately poor public sector productivity levels, when civil servants are still working from home in vast numbers—even as productivity drops and TV daytime figures, fascinatingly, soar and as telephones do not get answered. Why is that still the case? Forgive me: I am sounding grumpy, even cynical. I know it is not like me; I think I must still be suffering from frozen thresholds.

Let me try to raise spirits by looking at what is going on in the United States for some interesting lessons. Not very long ago, it was the sun-kissed cities of the west coast that were the exciting, almost romantic, future. Yet today, so sadly, the fabled streets of San Francisco are overwhelmed with misery and homelessness, while in Los Angeles residents are moving out in record numbers. Yes, California has the sun, but it also has the highest tax rates in that union. There is something similar in the old economic heartland of the north-east: New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. The dynamo is slowing. The energy and ambition are moving south to states such as Texas, Florida and the Carolinas. Twenty years ago, the north-east was considerably wealthier than the south. Then its states raised their taxes, while the south’s cut theirs—and the south is where cities are now booming. If you go to Dallas, Atlanta and Miami, they almost shake with enterprise and ambition. Jeff Bezos, the founder of Amazon, is moving from the west coast to Miami. I do not want to shower this House with statistics but today the low-tax south has a higher share of the nation’s GDP than the once all-conquering north-east. I do not think that is just because of the weather.

I wholeheartedly applaud the Government’s determination to boost growth by cutting taxes. Growth may not be the answer to everything, but it is the foundation of so much of what we want for our future, our children’s future and our country’s future. Can my noble friend confirm that this commitment to cutting taxes and boosting growth is not simply a short-term expedient, or even a pre-election jolly, but rather a deeply felt and long-term mission—a crusade, even—and one that will carry this country forward? I hope we will all remember that, without better growth, very few political promises are worth the inflated paper that they are usually printed on.

Economic Forecasts

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the United Kingdom economy has performed since 23 June, in terms of growth and employment; and how this compares to forecasts made by the Treasury during the referendum campaign.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, at his request and with the leave of the House, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

In quarter 3 of 2016, following the EU referendum, UK GDP growth was 0.6%, and the unemployment rate is now 4.8%. These figures show that not only was the economy stronger than we thought going into the referendum, it has been much more resilient than many people projected—“a brighter future”, in the Prime Minister’s words. The short-term pre-referendum analysis published by the Treasury was based on a specific set of assumptions, some of which have already proved invalid.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, what a joy it must be for us all to see business confidence rising and industry expanding; what excitement there is in seeing so many great, global countries recommitting themselves to Great Britain; and what a sadness for so many of us to see so many so-called experts having got it so wrong so frequently. Michael Fish got it wrong just once, not every night for six months. Does my noble friend agree that we have a clear objective, we have a clear agenda, and it is now time for all of us, no matter what side we took during the referendum campaign, to accept the very clear instructions of the British people and help to deliver the very best Brexit deal that common sense and common European interest can deliver?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I agree with my noble friend that we should try to deliver the best deal for this country that we can. Obviously, the analysis was based on a specific set of assumptions. They may have seemed sensible at the time but, with the benefit of hindsight, these things are always difficult. The Treasury also cited the uncertainty that a leave vote would cause, weighing on the economy, and it was therefore good to see certainty at the top of the Prime Minister’s list of objectives today.

Brexit: Economic Impact on North-East England

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

As noble Lords will know, I am a glass half full person and I think that the arrangements for Nissan and the automotive sector were a very good day for the north-east. The answer is that our door is always open to talk to the sector to give it the long-term assurances and strategy it wants, and that is what we have said.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

Has my noble friend noted the courageous and insightful speech apparently given today by the current leader of the Labour Party in which he has said that Britain can be better off outside the EU? But we do not have to take his word for it because we can ask the heads of Nissan, Toyota, Honda and Ford, all of whom since the referendum have recommitted themselves to this country. Indeed, one can add Apple, Google and Facebook to that list. Were not the people of the north-east absolutely right and can they not be congratulated on voting to clear us out of the sadly failing internal market of the European Union?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I would add Snapchat to my noble friend’s list. The British people are clear that Brexit means Brexit and we on this side are determined to make a success of it. The list that my noble friend has shared with us shows the positive news that we have had since that surprising day, 24 June.

Entrepreneurs’ Relief

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Thursday 26th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

Yes, my Lords, but while the problem to which the noble Lord refers is of course a long-standing one in the UK, the Government have done a number of things. One is the growth of the enterprise investment scheme, which generated investment of £1 billion in 2012-13. The seed enterprise investment scheme is another, albeit for slightly smaller firms, and some of the initiatives of the Stock Exchange on AIM and the development of the retail bond market are also designed to help fill that funding gap.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

Is my noble friend able to cool fevered brows on opposite Benches and confirm that part of that long-term economic plan is to continue the extraordinarily successful growth of job creation, which has given this country an unemployment and employment record finer than any other economy in Europe?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, it is far beyond my powers to cool the fevered brows opposite, but I repeat: we have been extremely successful in terms of private sector employment. Over 2 million additional private sector jobs have been created in this Parliament, which means that we now have more people employed in the UK than ever before, and the joint-highest rate of employment.

Banking: Lending

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

I attempt to take responsibility for things that I say at the Dispatch Box; it is beyond the scope of my responsibilities to take responsibility for the views of every other noble Lord.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

I congratulate my noble friend on accepting some responsibility at the Dispatch Box. Is that not far better than, in the case of Members opposite, apparently accepting no responsibility whatever for anything they ever managed to do in government?

Economy: Infrastructure

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Dobbs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for improving infrastructure to enable businesses and employment to grow.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton)]

My Lords, the Government laid out their infrastructure plans at the spending review in their document Investing in Britain’s Future, committing to fund publicly specific projects worth over £100 billion and facilitating private investment by both extending the UK guarantees scheme and providing policy certainty, for example to energy businesses and investors through the early publication of renewable strike prices.

[Lord Dobbs]

I thank my noble friend. On this exceptionally happy day, could we perhaps spend a moment looking on the bright side? It might be too early to spot green shoots but there are certainly a number of blue shoots around. Growth is accelerating, exports are rising and unemployment is falling. Confidence among consumers and business is growing. However, many challenges still lie ahead. Does my noble friend agree that small businesses are consistently at the sharp end of economic revival? How do he and his colleague intend to ensure that the huge and very welcome infrastructure programme that he has announced gives a fair share to Britain’s small businesses?

[Lord Deighton]

I thank my noble friend for those observations about the signs of good news that are beginning to be seen in the economy. Based on my discussions with small businesses, they are most concerned about access to finance, improved broadband and better roads. The Government are addressing all of those through the Funding for Lending scheme to get cheaper financing and through the business bank to get about £1 billion of capital committed in non-bank funding. We are rolling out broadband as fast as possible both privately and through government intervention and we have committed a record amount not only to building new roads but to improving and repairing existing roads so that small businesses can get around. As for the participation of small businesses themselves in these large infrastructure projects, those businesses operate down the supply chain, and giving them a long-term warning that these projects are coming is extremely helpful. By way of example, I think that about 58% of the businesses which benefit from Crossrail spend would be classified as small and medium-sized.

Economic Policies

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am not sure that was a question that was addressed to me. However, I do not think that characterises the position of any noble friends of mine.

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, will my noble friend cast his mind back to the memoirs of the last Labour Chancellor—and how good those words sometimes sound—in which he described the situation at the end of his tenure of office as being “brutal and volcanic”? It is not clear to me whether he was talking simply about the economic situation that he passed on or his relationship with the Prime Minister, but when my noble friend looks at the sea of outrage opposite, does he not think that, even for them, it comes a bit rich?

[Lord Sassoon]

I entirely agree with my noble friend.

Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, I am also tempted to stray a little from the committee’s report this evening, although not before paying tribute to the excellent work of its members and also adding my welcome to my noble friend Lord Boswell of Aynho in his new position.

It has not been a very good week for political classes and elites, and I am told that it is only Monday. Over the weekend, NATO’s strategy on Afghanistan seemed to have been taken over by the Grand Old Duke of York—lost in confusion, trying to remember whether he was supposed to be marching up or down the hill. Then, of course, we had the summit discussions on Europe, where the only consensus seemed to be that Europe is in a terrible crisis. Europe is in chaos, and things will get worse.

I commend the committee for its report. I take to heart its opening lines about the need for leadership. As the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, himself has so ably set out, we have seen so little of that—so many of Europe’s leaders seem blind and bereft of ideas. You can hear the mantra falling from the lips yet again, “One last push and it will all be over,”. We in Europe seem to have learnt nothing for almost 100 years.

I listened in amazement over the weekend to President Barroso. I beg his pardon, because I mean him no personal discourtesy, but his statement was like tugging at the tulips to see if the roots were still intact. Your committee spoke of—I believe the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, also quoted it, although that is as far as I will be going down the path with her this evening—a need for effective and proactive leadership from the EU institutions and member states. Where has that been?

Over the weekend Mr Barroso’s response to the need for leadership was to say that,

“there is only plan A”.

There is no plan A. It is a meaningless concept. There is nothing but a fog of indecision. Europe’s leaders talk about Greece, the euro and binding undertakings, but they refuse to address the key issue: the increasingly incoherent fiscal and political system that underlies and is undermining—indeed destroying—the euro.

I have always wondered why Europe should need three expensive Presidents—not just Mr Barroso, but two others as well—and of course two even more costly Parliaments. They can only come up with one bankrupt idea: plan A. But perhaps there is a plan A*. We heard it again over the weekend: a strategy for growth. Why did I not think of that? Where have I been? I must have been a stonkingly dull pupil all these years. If platitudes could come to our rescue we would have floated off the rocks long ago and would today be singing from the top of Mount Olympus.

Plan A, plan B—whatever plan has so far been devised—will not do. This cannot do. The people tell us that, which is why in country after country since this crisis began Governments have been swept from office—all of them thrown out, with one exception: Estonia, where a Eurosceptic centre-right Government somehow managed to increase their majority. I draw no general rule from a single example, as much as I am tempted to, but the evidence of every other election is surely compelling. Those who are responsible for the crisis have been called to account.

As I gaze across the battlefield of Europe, littered with corpse after political corpse, I have to wonder about Brussels, about the system and about Mr Barroso and his colleagues. Why is he—and the rest of them—still there? How many of them have been asked to resign or apologise or accept their share of responsibility for the chaos? Not a single one. They seem to inhabit a parallel universe of different rules, while Greece is condemned to paralysis, stagnation—and perhaps salvation, but those in Brussels demand still more, 7% more. Those whom the gods wish to make mad they first seem to send to Brussels.

The stakes are terrifyingly high. I was taken with the warnings of the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Clegg, the other day. He is not a man whose insights I have regularly praised in the past, but he talked about his fear that economic failure could lead to political extremism and chaos in parts of Europe. That was echoed by my noble friend Lord Maclennan. He is surely right to give voice to those fears. There is so much at stake. Instead of prosperity, Europe will get bankruptcy. Instead of peace, Europe could be filled with burning barricades. Instead of parliamentary democracy, we could all too easily find tolerance being trashed in country after country.

It requires leadership to see a way through this tangle. I welcomed very warmly what the Prime Minister had to say over the weekend. His words were wise—perhaps not welcome in every quarter but sometimes it is necessary to shake the tree to get at the fruit. He said that the people will decide, and in Greece they will do that in the form of an election that will be seen as a referendum. The people must decide—not the political classes, who by and large have offered nothing but arrogance and indecision in heroic measure in recent years. It is the people who will suffer the consequences of failure, see their jobs taken from them, their pensions smashed and their hope and ambition for the future taken from their children. This is not a decision that can be left in the hands of politicians with gold-plated pensions, even gifted philosopher kings such as those praised by my noble friend Lord Marlesford; it is a decision for the people to make.

I therefore take to heart the Prime Minister’s words and the inexorable logic of his argument, which is that what is good for the Greeks must be even better for the British. I look forward to those Greek elections and hope that they will clarify some issues, just as I look forward with even greater anticipation to the referendum that must at some point surely follow in this country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I was not going to be excessively critical of intellectuals. I accept what my noble friend said but I translated it to the political because that is what this House is here to do. We are not a debating Chamber; we are the second House of a very significant Parliament in a Europe that is faced with the most colossal difficulties. That is why we have to address ourselves to the issues.

I greatly applaud the work of my noble friend Lord Harrison. When the report was being drafted, things were not quite as critical as they have developed to be over the past two to three months. Nevertheless, my noble friend and his report clearly reflect the difficulties and tensions faced by the committee in producing a response to the great challenge of the crisis in the eurozone.

Let us get one thing absolutely clear. The reason we cannot walk away is that Britain has nowhere else to walk. Robert Chote is the chair of the OBR, in the work of which not just the Chancellor but the Minister in this House invest so much credence. What does he say? He says that we face a catastrophic situation if Greece moves out of the euro; we face catastrophe as far as the eurozone is concerned. The recession will go on for several more years. There will be deflation. Unemployment will rise from 8% to 11%. Therefore, we will be in a situation in which our own people will suffer severely because of this development. That is why the one thing that the British people will not accept—nor do I see any reason why other Europeans should accept it either—is politicians throwing up their hands and saying, “This is beyond us”. We may have limited intellectual concepts to get beyond Keynesianism or monetarism as an economic theory for the future, but we must put together some kind of strategy for improvement. Without that, we renege on our obligations to people.

The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, says that the people will decide. Let me say that people who have lost trust in their politicians can reach some very dramatic decisions. We possibly see it in Greece at present. What if the British political community also began to reflect that we have no means of protecting our people in this crisis? A total calamity would be visited upon us and we would deserve it. Of course, I respect how difficult these issues are. I know that the Minister will be challenged in his response to this report. However, it is essential that we recognise that we must look for some steps forward.

[Lord Dobbs]

Is it now the policy of the noble Lord’s party to support a referendum at some point on Europe? The other day, I heard an interview with his noble friend Lord Mandelson who said that a referendum might be a good idea, although another of his colleagues said, “I wonder what he meant by that”. At the end of the day, does the noble Lord want the people to decide our fate and the direction of Europe, or should this still be simply a matter for the political elites?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I would say, not at the end of this day. We have so much to do before we could even begin to prepare a referendum and the question that that would represent in realistic and proper terms to the British people. I will not rule it out altogether. We are accustomed to referenda in certain circumstances. You cannot talk to the people in terms of “We are giving all power to you for you to take this decision because we as politicians have not got the faintest idea what the question should be or how it should be answered”. That is what I am arguing against.

I am confident of the fact that European politicians will take important steps to make progress out of this situation. What will they do first? Let me be clear, we should not visit upon the Greeks the well constructed animosity that infects all our right-wing press at the present time. The Greeks are such a small fraction of the European economy that they are not a threat to anyone. Their loss is marginal. It is certainly a marginal aspect as far as our exports are concerned. But the Greek withdrawal from the euro would represent not one country having left the euro, it would be a recasting of the nature of the euro. The euro would come rather more closely to some kind of a currency regime from which some could defect at a time. But as to the consequences, Greece would be just the first of the victims. Then the pressures would inevitably be presented on the next weakest currency. We have already got pretty well a checklist of how that succession of activity would take place. It is certainly the case that the Greeks did not create this situation. We should have some respect for a nation which has such a significance in its past for European society. But the Greek withdrawal from the eurozone would create enormous difficulties for all. The contagion would merely spread.

What is to be done in these circumstances? It is clear that we have to play our small part. Because we are not part of the eurozone, we are on the margins of this exercise. We are even more on the margins because the Prime Minister walks out in a huff or presents a veto whenever things do not go right. We are not quite sure what has gone wrong. As the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, indicated, we never got the facts of the basis of such a decision. But the Prime Minister is good at chiding nations from the sidelines, giving good advice and lecturing others while not being conspicuous by his success at home. If these countries are being told to pursue a strategy in which they have to improve their growth prospects, by heavens, the Prime Minister should examine more closely the growth position of the UK economy in its double-dip recession through his and his Chancellor’s actions since they have been in government.

So it is quite clear that we will look to others in Europe to present some dimension of the solution to this position. Does it mean that the Germans will have to make additional sacrifices, which it is quite clear that their chancellor is not prepared at present? That will happen only if the consequences of doing nothing are far worse. That is exactly how they are beginning to look. When this report was drafted only three months ago, this discussion could be conducted in fairly normal political language, but we are close to talking the language of cataclysm at present—and of course it changes the perspective of the Germans on this, not least because, after all, the Germans also need friends. In fact, they need the French, their direct allies who have helped to build the European project, who under Monsieur Hollande are taking a somewhat different view on the next stages.

It is quite clear that the eurozone has to take actions itself. We cannot play a major part. But it is the case that 40% of our exports go to Europe. It establishes the British economy in a weak position, because we are related to the euro countries in those terms; there is no ready alternative. If you ask any of our major companies or anyone else concerned with export trade, they do not turn round and say, “Because the eurozone’s in such trouble, we’re looking forward to such wonderful opportunities to challenge the Chinese and the Indians and others elsewhere in the world”. They do not say that at all. They say that we should do something about sustaining the most crucial market that we have—the eurozone countries.

I am quite sure that the Minister’s response to this debate will be expressed in very different terms to mine, but I hope that at least what I have done for him is to help to disperse the rhetoric so that we can concentrate on what practical politicians will have to do to get us out of this situation.