Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will be mercifully brief. We have heard a lot of powerful eloquence about property rights, both in this debate and in the days that preceded it. There is much in that to agree with. I hope that those who have spoken so well on this topic today will speak up as enthusiastically when the property rights of others who are perhaps less good at presenting their case are threatened with theft—for example, via the compulsory purchase coming to this House soon.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, I need to declare my interest. I was in a bookshop and a lady of, let us say, a certain number of years scuttled over to me and said, “You’re Michael Dobbs, aren’t you? I’ve always wanted to meet you and tell you that I read one or two pages of your book before I fall fast asleep at night”. I am glad that the noble Baroness’s experience was rather better—though I took it as a compliment.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and so many others, I am desperately sad that we are where we are. This is not just a disagreement about the Bill. This has become a more fundamental disagreement about the rights and the responsibilities of the Government—their right to get their legislation through and their responsibility to listen. The Government Front Bench insists that it is listening, but not even their Back Benches believe that. In the first round of ping-pong, Ministers managed to get only 125 Members to vote for them, on what I assume was a whipped vote. The Government soldiered on, but, in the second round of ping-pong, their vote fell. In the third round, on Monday, their numbers fell yet again. It was a little like watching Napoleon’s retreat through the snow from Moscow. On Monday, only 116 stumbled through the drifts in the government Lobby, which included all the officer class on the payroll—although I see that the screws appear to be on today. That 116 was despite, if I may say so, a gallant intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle—many of us will remember that. It was a brave speech in support of the Government; indeed, it was the only speech in support of the Government.

From every corner and every Bench in this House, even the Government’s own Benches, the plea has gone up: please listen. The Government have not responded. They have given us nothing but silence; the silence of a forest in winter, frozen and unbending. It is so strange and so unnecessary. They have changed their mind on so many other things—even winter fuel payments, I understand—but not on this. I suggest to the Government that they are using up their credit in this Chamber and they cannot be surprised if, in future days, when the snow melts and their way turns to mud, as it does for all Governments, the courtesies that they expect from this Chamber are not given as willingly as they might be. When the conventions of this House are so blithely ignored, they cannot always be easily rebuilt.

Ping-pong is not a game. It is a most profound expression of the right of this House to ask the Government to listen to its advice. That advice has been given with more eloquence, more persistence, and indeed more authority and passion than I can ever recall. It would not surprise me if Elton John were to write a new song about it— “Candle in the Wind”, or perhaps “fading footsteps in the snow”, along with the fading rights of every copyright holder in the country. Noble Lords may laugh if they wish, but 2.4 million people, their families and their friends will not think it a laughing matter. I find it a great shame. I leave it to others to decide whether it is also deeply shameful.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, I have not spoken previously on this issue, and I do not have the creative abilities of so many noble Members of this House, but I have listened repeatedly to these debates. It is right now to speak briefly in support of protecting our creative industries so that we can continue to reap the ripe rewards of their efforts.

We have to consider, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell, said, whose interests are being protected here. We have a duty to protect the wonderful creativity of our own country, which gives us so much pleasure and informs, educates and develops us in more ways than anything else can. We are under no obligation to protect others, but we are under an obligation to protect the interests of our people, not of massive tech industries.

I will support the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, because her amendment is the right thing to do. Even at this late stage, His Majesty’s Government could choose to act positively to respond to the massive concern that has been articulated in your Lordships’ House. If they do not do so, I very much hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, will seek to call a Division on this matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, said from the Government Benches that his Government have handled this issue badly. I think he used the word “appallingly”. That is indisputable. The question I have is, why? I suggest that the answer may have been stated by my noble friend Lord Russell of Liverpool. He put his finger on the point, referring to the concern of the United States Administration to protect the interests of AI companies. Noble Lords may know that the head of the United States Copyright Office was sacked last month, the day after she published a report identifying the importance of AI companies respecting copyright rights.

I have a question for the Minister, which I hope she will answer frankly. She said in her opening remarks that she recognised the importance of transparency. Will she tell the House, in the interests of transparency, what weight the Government have given to the concerns of the United States Government in resisting the repeated amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, over the last few weeks?

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, on Monday I asked almost precisely the same question of the Government and asked for a guarantee that no side deals or side understandings, or anything like that, had been done regarding the trade agreement we have with the United States. No answer has yet been forthcoming; I wish the noble Lord well in his adventure.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

I am delighted to be associated with the noble Lord on this, as on many other topics.